Did the historical Buddha taught Vajrayana Tantra?

[Mkoll]

I'm not an scholar or certified expert of Theravada, but from my somewhat extensive study there is no recognition of the existence of Yidams because that concept is foreign to Theravada. Similarly, it's like asking why Theravada doesn't recognize the existence of something like guru yoga. They simply aren't present.

Certain sects of Theravada Buddhism in Thailand practice guru yoga. This may have even been common before the reforms of King Mongkut, in an attempt to make Thai Buddhism seem "modern" to avoid colonization by the west.

Hah, I guess that was a bad comparison. That is interesting though, do you have a source for the information?

Perhaps I should have said that it's foreign to Theravada texts, i.e. the Pali Canon, because I'm more sure of that. It's also foreign to the teachings of all the modern Theravada teachers I've ever heard of. I'm sure if you looked hard enough you could find exceptions, but those exceptional practices would not have been taken from the Pali Canon.

[mikenz66]

Here are some references to Tantric practices in Thailand, etc.
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=10503" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6599" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Mike

[Mkoll]

Thanks Mike, that answers my question. I guess "Tantric Theravada" is as good a label as any for what's described in those threads.

Didn't see any mention of Yidams in Theravada though...

[Malcolm]

I'm not an scholar or certified expert of Theravada, but from my somewhat extensive study there is no recognition of the existence of Yidams because that concept is foreign to Theravada. Similarly, it's like asking why Theravada doesn't recognize the existence of something like guru yoga. They simply aren't present.

Certain sects of Theravada Buddhism in Thailand practice guru yoga. This may have even been common before the reforms of King Mongkut, in an attempt to make Thai Buddhism seem "modern" to avoid colonization by the west.

Guru yoga is a very specific practice which comes from anuttarayoga tantra, it does not even exist in Yoga tantra. That said, since anutttarayoga tantra did exist at one time in Thailand, etc., it is possible some kind of degenerate guru yoga tradition persisted in Thailand.

[Malcolm]

Here are some references to Tantric practices in Thailand, etc.
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=10503" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6599" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Mike

None of this is "tantric". To be a "tantric" practitioner, one must be introduced the path by empowerment (abhiśeka).

[BrianG]

Perhaps I should have said that it's foreign to Theravada texts, i.e. the Pali Canon, because I'm more sure of that. It's also foreign to the teachings of all the modern Theravada teachers I've ever heard of. I'm sure if you looked hard enough you could find exceptions, but those exceptional practices would not have been taken from the Pali Canon.

Well, some Mahayanist practices, such as transference of merit, are so deeply ingrained into Thai Buddhism, that most Buddhists here would be surprised to learn that they have no basis in the pali canon at all.

Thai Theravada teachers that teach abroad in the west, are hand selected by the highest levels of the Thai Sangha, to ensure that they present "pure" Buddhism when abroad.

Tantric elements in Thai Theravada aren't really exceptions, they are completely mainstream( at least for those that belong to those sects ). Thaksin Shinawatra, the exiled former prime minister of Thailand, is an adherent of the Dhammakaya sect, which certainly has Tantric elements -


Even the most conservative sects tend to operate under a guru system.

This doesn't mean that Tantric elements are nearly as prevalent as they are in Vajrayana - but they are there.

As far yidam practice, there are certainly body mandalas, however they are populated with arhants etc, rather than deities.

Guru yoga is a very specific practice which comes from anuttarayoga tantra, it does not even exist in Yoga tantra. That said, since anutttarayopga tantra did exist at one time in Thailand, etc., it is possible some kind of degenerate guru yoga tradition persisted in Thailand.

Yes, my feeling is that after the Pala dynasty fell and Thailand switched from Vajrayana to Sri Lankan Buddhism, they "converted" a number of practices to be more palatable, and obfuscated the sources.

[BrianG]

Here are some references to Tantric practices in Thailand, etc.
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=10503" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6599" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Mike

None of this is "tantric". To be a "tantric" practitioner, one must be introduced the path by empowerment (abhiśeka).

There are empowerments -
http://www.lersi.net/lersi-mask-initiation/

[Malcolm]

Here are some references to Tantric practices in Thailand, etc.
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=10503" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6599" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Mike

None of this is "tantric". To be a "tantric" practitioner, one must be introduced the path by empowerment (abhiśeka).

There are empowerments -
http://www.lersi.net/lersi-mask-initiation/

This is not a qualified Vajrayāna abhiśeka, this is a blessing. It is not a path.

[BrianG]

This is not a qualified Vajrayāna abhiśeka, this is a blessing. It is not a path.

Well, I'm not arguing that Varjayana survived in Thailand. Although I do admit that I am somewhat curious as to whether a lineage survived in secret somewhere in SE Asia.

[Malcolm]

... which certainly has Tantric elements -

This has more to do with Ayurveda and Yoga than Vajrayāna. It is more accurate to say that certain kinds of Thai Buddhism have yogic elements, rather than "tantric" elements.

[BrianG]

... which certainly has Tantric elements -

This has more to do with Ayurveda and Yoga than Vajrayāna. It is more accurate to say that certain kinds of Thai Buddhism have yogic elements, rather than "tantric" elements.

Well, one of the sects main practices is visualizing a translucent Buddha at the navel chakra.

And from one of the threads listed above -

These Buddhas — 28 leaders, sovereign sages beginning with Taṇhaṅkara — are all established on the crown of my head.
The Buddha is established in my head, the Dhamma in my two eyes, the Saṅgha — the mine of all virtues — is established in my chest.
Anuruddha is in my heart, and Sārīputta on my right. Koṇḍañña is behind me, and Moggallāna on my left.
Ānanda & Rāhula are in my right ear, Kassapa & Mahānāma are both in my left ear.
Sobhita, the noble sage, sits in consummate glory, shining like the sun all over the hair at the back of my head.
Elder Kumārakassapa — great sage, brilliant speaker, a mine of virtue — is constantly in my mouth.
These five elders — Puṇṇa, Aṅgulimāla, Upālī, Nanda, & Sīvalī — have arisen as auspicious marks at the middle of my forehead.
The rest of the 80 great elders — victorious, disciples of the Victor, sons of the Victor, shining with the majesty of moral virtue — are established in the various parts of my body.
The Ratana Sutta is in front, the Metta Sutta to the right. The Dhajagga Sutta is behind, the Aṅgulimāla Paritta to the left. The Khandha & Mora Parittas and the Āṭānāṭiya Sutta are a roof in space. The remaining suttas are established as a rampart.
Bound by the Victor's authority & strength, seven ramparts arrayed against them, may all misfortunes within & without — caused by such things as wind or bile — be destroyed without trace through the unending Victor's majesty.
As I dwell, in all my affairs, always in the cage of the Self-awakened One, living on earth in the middle of the cage of the Victors, I am always guarded by all of those great noble men.

Thus am I utterly well-sheltered, well-protected.
Through the power of the Victor, misfortunes are vanquished.
Through the power of the Dhamma, the enemy horde is vanquished.
Through the power of the Saṅgha, dangers are vanquished.
Guarded by the power of the True Dhamma,
I go about in the Victor's Cage.

My guess is that you are probably resistant to this being called "tantric", due to the lack of an empowerment. Fair enough. Perhaps "derived from tantra, but not tantra" is more accurate.

[Malcolm]

My guess is that you are probably resistant to this being called "tantric", due to the lack of an empowerment. Fair enough. Perhaps "derived from tantra, but not tantra" is more accurate.

I don't think so. Calling these things "tantric" comes from an ignorant and anachronistic use the term from the early 20th century. In other words, the term really has no meaning. There was never any tradition in India that called itself "tantric". There are many traditions in India that followed manuals (tantras), from Ayurveda (in whose texts is found the the earliest use of the term) to Yoga, Kauala, so on and so forth.

Secret Mantra is something very specific. None of these Thai practices bear any relationship to Secret Mantra.

[BrianG]

Secret Mantra is something very specific. None of these Thai practices bear any relationship to Secret Mantra.

The protection chakra/body mandala I posted above has a Sri Lankan version as well.

So what you're saying is that these practices weren't derived from previous Vajrayana practice. Which is what I thought was likely due to the region's long history of Vajrayana practice( archaeological evidence supports Hevajra practice reaching it's historical peak during the Khmer empire ).

That means there must have been a separate esoteric transmission just for SE Asia, which doesn't make much sense to me.

[Malcolm]

Secret Mantra is something very specific. None of these Thai practices bear any relationship to Secret Mantra.

The protection chakra/body mandala I posted above has a Sri Lankan version as well.

So what you're saying is that these practices weren't derived from previous Vajrayana practice. Which is what I thought was likely due to the region's long history of Vajrayana practice( archaeological evidence supports Hevajra practice reaching it's historical peak during the Khmer empire ).

That means there must have been a separate esoteric transmission just for SE Asia, which doesn't make much sense to me.

Correct, what I am saying is that these practices have no clear cut path to the presence of Vajrayāna SE Asia. They are not Vajrayāna practices, whatever else they may be.

The exoteric practice of protection amulets, protective visualizations and so on are wide spread in the Indian culture sphere. That does not make them related to Vajrayāna or even lower Secret Mantra.

[lorem]

Secret Mantra is something very specific. None of these Thai practices bear any relationship to Secret Mantra.

The protection chakra/body mandala I posted above has a Sri Lankan version as well.

So what you're saying is that these practices weren't derived from previous Vajrayana practice. Which is what I thought was likely due to the region's long history of Vajrayana practice( archaeological evidence supports Hevajra practice reaching it's historical peak during the Khmer empire ).

That means there must have been a separate esoteric transmission just for SE Asia, which doesn't make much sense to me.

Why did they leave out the heart chakra?

[BrianG]

You left out guru yoga.

http://www.insightmeditationcenter.org/ ... theravada/

These included chakra practices (opening of the wisdom-eye and the heart center), skeleton practices (on the nature of the body), and meditations with the elements of earth, air, fire, water and space. He trained people to understand emptiness by resting in what he called the “Original Mind” or the “Natural State” and he offered practices unifying participants’ consciousnesses with his own. He also performed many kinds of blessings, described exorcisms, taught chants, and offered protection rituals, visualizations and vows (including bodhisattva vows, practice vows and refuge vows). Throughout, he emphasized that freedom and emptiness and joy can be found in all circumstances. And this in only one week from one Theravada teacher!

My basic point - People's view of Theravada tends to be excessively narrow. I personally don't practice within it, but it's a much more diverse tradition than people really give it credit for.

[Malcolm]

You left out guru yoga.

Which requires an HYT empowerment.

[Johnny Dangerous]

For sure the Therveda that is popular in the west seems to have been scrubbed of syncretic and esoteric elements. A lot of times when I see people reference Therveda, it almost seems like what they are talking about is actually (usually western) Pali Canon text criticism version of it, rather than as it's practiced anywhere else.

[lorem]

You left out guru yoga.

Oh yeah guru yoga is important. I still keep the link to some guru yogas out of respect to masters for example H H 16th Karmapa.

But there is no Vajrayana without teacher.

EDIT

Yes, I was not aware that other traditions practiced guru yoga. Interesting to know.

[BrianG]

You left out guru yoga.

Which requires an HYT empowerment.

HYT is a Tibetan classification, and has no meaning outside of Tibetan Buddhism.