China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan monas

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Grigoris
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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by Grigoris »

uan wrote:Their culture was a theocracy and was centered around supporting that theocracy. A theocracy is not Dharma. Samsara existed in Tibet and permeated all levels of their culture, just like any other culture.
Whose culture was/is a theocracy?
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uan
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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by uan »

Sherab Dorje wrote:
uan wrote:Their culture was a theocracy and was centered around supporting that theocracy. A theocracy is not Dharma. Samsara existed in Tibet and permeated all levels of their culture, just like any other culture.
Whose culture was/is a theocracy?
holy mao.jpg
worshipping mao.jpg
HHDL on Mao:
“I felt as I was in the presence of a strong magnetic force...he had a very emphatic air of authority and sincerity. His mere presence commanded respect. I felt, too, that he was completely genuine as well as very decisive…”
Tenzin Gyatso, Freedom in Exile, p. 88

“He [Chairman Mao] appears to me as a father and he himself considered me as a son. [We had] very good relations.” HHDL, The Hindu - June 29, 2012 12:56 IST
Indeed.
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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by theanarchist »

uan wrote:
HHDL on Mao:
“I felt as I was in the presence of a strong magnetic force...he had a very emphatic air of authority and sincerity. His mere presence commanded respect. I felt, too, that he was completely genuine as well as very decisive…”
Tenzin Gyatso, Freedom in Exile, p. 88

“He [Chairman Mao] appears to me as a father and he himself considered me as a son. [We had] very good relations.” HHDL, The Hindu - June 29, 2012 12:56 IST
Indeed.

Did Mao indeed start out as an idealistic, charismatic revolutionary and only later got corrupted by the lure of power, slowly turning into an autocratic, destructive dictator that he later in his life definitely was?

Hitler was rotten from the beginning, just as Stalin was, but it seems that a lot of the other left revolutionaries that later came to power started out as people with genuinely good intentions.
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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by JKhedrup »

I can heartily recommend the book by Mao's personal physician Dr. Li Zhisui, "The Private Life of Chairman Mao". It gives a fascinating first hand account of his political evolution, or devolution.
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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

uan wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:
uan wrote:But let's not paint some rosy, Shangri-La picture of Tibet that never existed.
And the reality was that their culture was not centered around Dharma? Is that what you are saying?
Samsara existed in Tibet and permeated all levels of their culture, just like any other culture.
So your point is that it wasn't Amitabha's Pure Land? Point accepted.
Their culture was a theocracy and was centered around supporting that theocracy. A theocracy is not Dharma.
Not quite. Dharma is for people in samsara. Buddhas don't need it. In fact the analogy of getting out of the boat of Dharma once you reach the other shore specifically says so.

So Dharma is always found at the intersection of enlightened awareness interacting with unawareness, which is to say samsara. This is true of the individual as well as a society. You may have a cultural bias against how Tibetans coped with that problem, but we are all deeply indebted to them for the success of their efforts which lasted consistently over hundreds of years. That is an unbelievable cultural achievement, imo. It is much to early to say that we, with our modern way of doing things, will be as successful over the next few centuries.
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2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
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Malcolm
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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by Malcolm »

uan wrote:
Their culture was a theocracy and was centered around supporting that theocracy. A theocracy is not Dharma. Samsara existed in Tibet and permeated all levels of their culture, just like any other culture.

You really have no understanding of Tibetan history or culture.
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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by uan »

Malcolm wrote:
uan wrote:
Their culture was a theocracy and was centered around supporting that theocracy. A theocracy is not Dharma. Samsara existed in Tibet and permeated all levels of their culture, just like any other culture.

You really have no understanding of Tibetan history or culture.
Would you care to elaborate?
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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by uan »

smcj wrote:You may have a cultural bias against how Tibetans coped with that problem, ...
Actually I don't. I've been to Eastern Tibet and have some long lasting, deep rooted connections/relationships with Tibetan lamas.

I do have an issue with people in my own culture looking to other cultures and making those other cultures out to be something more OR less then what they really are, based on whatever the person from my own culture needs it to be. Basically we tend to simplify things, and often to the extreme, to the point that the other culture isn't itself anymore, but the mind construct of the person talking about it.

While I may have no understanding of Tibetan culture, as I'm sure Malcolm will be more than happy to articulate in some detail (or perhaps not), I do have a pretty good understanding of my own. It constantly amazes me how many posters on Dharma Wheel bash endlessly on the "West" etc. (both those from the "West" and those who never been to the West) And that's without even addressing that fact that the term "The West" is so broad and inclusive as to be meaningless. But it's done with such conviction and certainty as if we were all talking about the same, tangible, real thing.

I'll be the first to admit I fall into that trap. No pretense of enlightenment on my part, that's for sure. In fact, the more I practice, the more aware I become of just how deep the layers of obscuration go. My respect goes out to those who have cut through all that. But I imagine that even one layer of obscuration distorts our view of reality. Until those are totally gone, any attempt to say "this is how it actually is/was" is bound to be wrong.

Having type those last words, I realize I should probably withdraw from this whole thread, as it really is about "how things actually are" and by my own admission, I have too many layers of obscuration to add anything of value.

:anjali:
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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by dzogchungpa »

uan wrote:HHDL on Mao:
“I felt as I was in the presence of a strong magnetic force...he had a very emphatic air of authority and sincerity. His mere presence commanded respect. I felt, too, that he was completely genuine as well as very decisive…”
Tenzin Gyatso, Freedom in Exile, p. 88

“He [Chairman Mao] appears to me as a father and he himself considered me as a son. [We had] very good relations.” HHDL, The Hindu - June 29, 2012 12:56 IST
Indeed.
So, what was your point with this?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by JKhedrup »

It constantly amazes me how many posters on Dharma Wheel bash endlessly on the "West" etc.
I am very grateful to "the West" for many things- democracy, electricity, sanitation and a decent education system.

Still, having lived in various Asian countries, I can say for a Buddhist practitioner, or a practitioner of any of the dharmic traditions for that matter, living in an Asian country is easier psychologically. One is not a weirdo or wingnut for believing in things like karma, reincarnation and liberation. They are accepted by millions, and have been for several thousand years. As a person who wears robes it is easier too- especially in India people are used to seeing men in skirts.

Far from being an ego trip, wearing monastic garb in the West opens one up to all sorts of abuse, assumption and judgement. So for me, East over West, hands down.
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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by uan »

JKhedrup wrote:
It constantly amazes me how many posters on Dharma Wheel bash endlessly on the "West" etc.
I am very grateful to "the West" for many things- democracy, electricity, sanitation and a decent education system.

Still, having lived in various Asian countries, I can say for a Buddhist practitioner, or a practitioner of any of the dharmic traditions for that matter, living in an Asian country is easier psychologically. One is not a weirdo or wingnut for believing in things like karma, reincarnation and liberation. They are accepted by millions, and have been for several thousand years. As a person who wears robes it is easier too- especially in India people are used to seeing men in skirts.

Far from being an ego trip, wearing monastic garb in the West opens one up to all sorts of abuse, assumption and judgement. So for me, East over West, hands down.
Excellent points Ven. I prefer the East to the West in many regards as well.
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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by uan »

dzogchungpa wrote:
uan wrote:HHDL on Mao:
“I felt as I was in the presence of a strong magnetic force...he had a very emphatic air of authority and sincerity. His mere presence commanded respect. I felt, too, that he was completely genuine as well as very decisive…”
Tenzin Gyatso, Freedom in Exile, p. 88

“He [Chairman Mao] appears to me as a father and he himself considered me as a son. [We had] very good relations.” HHDL, The Hindu - June 29, 2012 12:56 IST
Indeed.
So, what was your point with this?
It was just part of whimsical conversation with Sherab Dorje.
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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by Malcolm »

uan wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
uan wrote:
Their culture was a theocracy and was centered around supporting that theocracy. A theocracy is not Dharma. Samsara existed in Tibet and permeated all levels of their culture, just like any other culture.

You really have no understanding of Tibetan history or culture.
Would you care to elaborate?
Their culture was a theocracy and was centered around supporting that theocracy
This statement is complete nonsense. It cannot arise out of a real understanding of how Tibetan culture functions.
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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by uan »

Malcolm wrote:
uan wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
You really have no understanding of Tibetan history or culture.
Would you care to elaborate?
Their culture was a theocracy and was centered around supporting that theocracy
This statement is complete nonsense. It cannot arise out of a real understanding of how Tibetan culture functions.
That was a non answer. But it does arise out of a real understanding of how non answers function.
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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by Adi »

Their culture was a theocracy and was centered around supporting that theocracy
This statement is complete nonsense. It cannot arise out of a real understanding of how Tibetan culture functions.
That was a non answer. But it does arise out of a real understanding of how non answers function.
It was a complete answer. Do you know what a theocracy is? It is "a system of government in which priests rule in the name of God or a god." There is no God in Tibetan Buddhism. It may be a religious society, a society in which certain religious figures hold much authority, but it by definition can't be a theocracy. So your statement is nonsensical.

Adi
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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by Malcolm »

uan wrote:
That was a non answer. But it does arise out of a real understanding of how non answers function.
Look, you made a gross inaccurate generalization. For one, the vast majority of Tibet, for most of its history, was divvied up into small kingdoms held together by a network of trade, family relations as well as monastic ties.

While it is true that the Great Fifth took control of Central Tibet and Tsang, his consolidation fell apart after his death completely. in 1704. It was another 50 years before a Dalai Lama was the nominal ruler of Central Tibet and Tsang. Even here, principalities like Sakya in Western Tsang maintained their independence. During much of the 19th century, Lhasa was controlled through Manchu Ambans.

So my point is, your contention has no substance.
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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by theanarchist »

Adi wrote: It was a complete answer. Do you know what a theocracy is? It is "a system of government in which priests rule in the name of God or a god." There is no God in Tibetan Buddhism. It may be a religious society, a society in which certain religious figures hold much authority, but it by definition can't be a theocracy. So your statement is nonsensical.

Adi

Sorry, but in all medieval type societies a caste of religious leaders holds considerable power. That was the case with cultures like Azteks or Maya, to celtic druids, just as with medieval Christianity or Islam. That's neither specifically Tibetan nor specifically tantric buddhist.
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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by Adi »

theanarchist wrote:
Adi wrote: It was a complete answer. Do you know what a theocracy is? It is "a system of government in which priests rule in the name of God or a god." There is no God in Tibetan Buddhism. It may be a religious society, a society in which certain religious figures hold much authority, but it by definition can't be a theocracy. So your statement is nonsensical.

Adi

Sorry, but in all medieval type societies a caste of religious leaders holds considerable power. That was the case with cultures like Azteks or Maya, to celtic druids, just as with medieval Christianity or Islam. That's neither specifically Tibetan nor specifically tantric buddhist.
Nothing to be sorry about. You got the point yet missed it, too. Theocracy is simply, by definition, the wrong word to use in a Buddhist culture. There is no schema of creator gods so using a word with the root theo is inaccurate and thus nonsensical.

Adi
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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by dzogchungpa »

From http://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=theocracy:
1. Government ruled by or subject to religious authority.
2. A country or state governed in this way.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by Adi »

Even if you accept this unsound definition, see Malcolm's previous post about Tibetan history. It still doesn't apply in the way uan imagines it.

Adi
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