Refuge as a pre-requisite for lung

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ManiThePainter
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Refuge as a pre-requisite for lung

Post by ManiThePainter »

Is going for refuge a pre-requisite for receiving the lung of a text?
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Inedible
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Re: Refuge as a pre-requisite for lung

Post by Inedible »

Do you really have to ask? Without going for Refuge, you aren't a Buddhist. You don't have to have a formal ceremony, but you have to say the words. And mean them.
Malcolm
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Re: Refuge as a pre-requisite for lung

Post by Malcolm »

Inedible wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:43 am Do you really have to ask? Without going for Refuge, you aren't a Buddhist. You don't have to have a formal ceremony, but you have to say the words. And mean them.
Not really. It’s sufficient to be sincerely interested in the Dharma.
PeterC
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Re: Refuge as a pre-requisite for lung

Post by PeterC »

The vast majority of practices you do (in the Tibetan traditions at least) start with some form of refuge. So I’m not sure how one could actually practice in this tradition without saying the words.

Though technically speaking, I received lungs for a couple of practices before I had said the refuge vows in any Tibetan tradition. I happen to have taken refuge in a different tradition previously, but the lama would not have known that. And this was as part of a major, regular teaching event by a high-profile lama. So sure, it’s possible. But I can’t imagine one actually *practising* without taking refuge.
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Re: Refuge as a pre-requisite for lung

Post by n8pee »

PeterC wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:28 am The vast majority of practices you do (in the Tibetan traditions at least) start with some form of refuge. So I’m not sure how one could actually practice in this tradition without saying the words.

Though technically speaking, I received lungs for a couple of practices before I had said the refuge vows in any Tibetan tradition. I happen to have taken refuge in a different tradition previously, but the lama would not have known that. And this was as part of a major, regular teaching event by a high-profile lama. So sure, it’s possible. But I can’t imagine one actually *practising* without taking refuge.
Refuge isn't just words. It certainly doesn't need vocalization.
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Re: Refuge as a pre-requisite for lung

Post by PeterC »

n8pee wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:55 am
PeterC wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:28 am The vast majority of practices you do (in the Tibetan traditions at least) start with some form of refuge. So I’m not sure how one could actually practice in this tradition without saying the words.

Though technically speaking, I received lungs for a couple of practices before I had said the refuge vows in any Tibetan tradition. I happen to have taken refuge in a different tradition previously, but the lama would not have known that. And this was as part of a major, regular teaching event by a high-profile lama. So sure, it’s possible. But I can’t imagine one actually *practising* without taking refuge.
Refuge isn't just words. It certainly doesn't need vocalization.
Yet every ceremony bestowing refuge vows involves words, as does that part of every sadhana. So saying words clearly isn’t unimportant
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ManiThePainter
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Re: Refuge as a pre-requisite for lung

Post by ManiThePainter »

Quite a few different views on this it seems.

From my own basic knowledge I’d assume that practice necessitated refuge.

But is receiving a lung a practice?
"Don't mind me, just trying to find the nearest exit"
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PeterC
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Re: Refuge as a pre-requisite for lung

Post by PeterC »

ManiThePainter wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:38 am Quite a few different views on this it seems.

From my own basic knowledge I’d assume that practice necessitated refuge.

But is receiving a lung a practice?
As stated above, one can receive lungs from respected major lamas without saying a word of refuge. If it were needed to receive the lung they would not give them so readily
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ManiThePainter
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Re: Refuge as a pre-requisite for lung

Post by ManiThePainter »

PeterC wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:16 am As stated above, one can receive lungs from respected major lamas without saying a word of refuge. If it were needed to receive the lung they would not give them so readily
Thank you.
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Malcolm
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Re: Refuge as a pre-requisite for lung

Post by Malcolm »

ManiThePainter wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:38 am Quite a few different views on this it seems.

From my own basic knowledge I’d assume that practice necessitated refuge.

But is receiving a lung a practice?
For a practitioner it is a practice, part of the three wisdoms.
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ManiThePainter
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Re: Refuge as a pre-requisite for lung

Post by ManiThePainter »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:53 pm
ManiThePainter wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:38 am Quite a few different views on this it seems.

From my own basic knowledge I’d assume that practice necessitated refuge.

But is receiving a lung a practice?
For a practitioner it is a practice, part of the three wisdoms.
Noted.
"Don't mind me, just trying to find the nearest exit"
- someone stuck in Samsara... or maybe lost in Walmart
Inedible
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Re: Refuge as a pre-requisite for lung

Post by Inedible »

I'm not Catholic so I don't take Communion. My parents tried, but it didn't take. I don't know about other religions. Why would someone want to be involved with someone else's religion without actually joining it?
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Re: Refuge as a pre-requisite for lung

Post by Malcolm »

Inedible wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:04 am I'm not Catholic so I don't take Communion. My parents tried, but it didn't take. I don't know about other religions. Why would someone want to be involved with someone else's religion without actually joining it?
The Buddha never said to anyone, “Before you sit and listen to me, you must go for refuge to me.” However, very often at the end of a discourse, people, impressed by his words, then went to refuge in the Three Jewels.
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ManiThePainter
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Re: Refuge as a pre-requisite for lung

Post by ManiThePainter »

Inedible wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:04 am I'm not Catholic so I don't take Communion. My parents tried, but it didn't take. I don't know about other religions. Why would someone want to be involved with someone else's religion without actually joining it?
Nobody here is saying anything about never taking refuge.

Since I’m planning on taking an online lung within a couple of months but might be unable to take formal refuge (I would like to do so in person at a temple or with a sangha and to take vows) due to the current coronavirus strain, I was merely wondering if it was pointless to receive the lung if I hadn’t already gone for refuge.
"Don't mind me, just trying to find the nearest exit"
- someone stuck in Samsara... or maybe lost in Walmart
PeterC
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Re: Refuge as a pre-requisite for lung

Post by PeterC »

ManiThePainter wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:44 pm
Inedible wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:04 am I'm not Catholic so I don't take Communion. My parents tried, but it didn't take. I don't know about other religions. Why would someone want to be involved with someone else's religion without actually joining it?
Nobody here is saying anything about never taking refuge.

Since I’m planning on taking an online lung within a couple of months but might be unable to take formal refuge (I would like to do so in person at a temple or with a sangha and to take vows) due to the current coronavirus strain, I was merely wondering if it was pointless to receive the lung if I hadn’t already gone for refuge.
You can take refuge anywhere, at any time. If you feel a little formality would be desirable, look into Garchen R’s ‘refuge at a distance’ arrangement.
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ManiThePainter
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Re: Refuge as a pre-requisite for lung

Post by ManiThePainter »

PeterC wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:10 pm
ManiThePainter wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:44 pm
Inedible wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:04 am I'm not Catholic so I don't take Communion. My parents tried, but it didn't take. I don't know about other religions. Why would someone want to be involved with someone else's religion without actually joining it?
Nobody here is saying anything about never taking refuge.

Since I’m planning on taking an online lung within a couple of months but might be unable to take formal refuge (I would like to do so in person at a temple or with a sangha and to take vows) due to the current coronavirus strain, I was merely wondering if it was pointless to receive the lung if I hadn’t already gone for refuge.
You can take refuge anywhere, at any time. If you feel a little formality would be desirable, look into Garchen R’s ‘refuge at a distance’ arrangement.
Thanks PeterC. I thought I had read somewhere that one had to go for refuge and take vows in person (one could say it by oneself but it would not be the same). Clearly I was misinformed.
"Don't mind me, just trying to find the nearest exit"
- someone stuck in Samsara... or maybe lost in Walmart
Malcolm
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Re: Refuge as a pre-requisite for lung

Post by Malcolm »

ManiThePainter wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:31 pm
PeterC wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:10 pm
ManiThePainter wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:44 pm

Nobody here is saying anything about never taking refuge.

Since I’m planning on taking an online lung within a couple of months but might be unable to take formal refuge (I would like to do so in person at a temple or with a sangha and to take vows) due to the current coronavirus strain, I was merely wondering if it was pointless to receive the lung if I hadn’t already gone for refuge.
You can take refuge anywhere, at any time. If you feel a little formality would be desirable, look into Garchen R’s ‘refuge at a distance’ arrangement.
Thanks PeterC. I thought I had read somewhere that one had to go for refuge and take vows in person (one could say it by oneself but it would not be the same). Clearly I was misinformed.
Mahayāna refuge can be taken by visualizing the Buddhas and bodhisattvas in front of you and reciting refuge formula. You do not need a preceptor. This system is clearly taught in the Mahāyāna sūtra. However, you should not let other people's religious trips make you anxious.
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ManiThePainter
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Re: Refuge as a pre-requisite for lung

Post by ManiThePainter »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:03 pm
ManiThePainter wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:31 pm
PeterC wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:10 pm

You can take refuge anywhere, at any time. If you feel a little formality would be desirable, look into Garchen R’s ‘refuge at a distance’ arrangement.
Thanks PeterC. I thought I had read somewhere that one had to go for refuge and take vows in person (one could say it by oneself but it would not be the same). Clearly I was misinformed.
Mahayāna refuge can be taken by visualizing the Buddhas and bodhisattvas in front of you and reciting refuge formula. You do not need a preceptor. This system is clearly taught in the Mahāyāna sūtra. However, you should not let other people's religious trips make you anxious.
Thanks. I appreciate the help.

So the cutting of hair as part of the refuge ceremony is just a formality?
"Don't mind me, just trying to find the nearest exit"
- someone stuck in Samsara... or maybe lost in Walmart
Malcolm
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Re: Refuge as a pre-requisite for lung

Post by Malcolm »

ManiThePainter wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:09 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:03 pm
ManiThePainter wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:31 pm

Thanks PeterC. I thought I had read somewhere that one had to go for refuge and take vows in person (one could say it by oneself but it would not be the same). Clearly I was misinformed.
Mahayāna refuge can be taken by visualizing the Buddhas and bodhisattvas in front of you and reciting refuge formula. You do not need a preceptor. This system is clearly taught in the Mahāyāna sūtra. However, you should not let other people's religious trips make you anxious.
Thanks. I appreciate the help.

So the cutting of hair as part of the refuge ceremony is just a formality?
Yes, it is a formality. You never read in the sutras where someone cuts hair just for going for refuge. All ordination rites are later developments. None of them come from the Buddha himself.
Inedible
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Re: Refuge as a pre-requisite for lung

Post by Inedible »

ManiThePainter wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:44 pm planning on taking an online lung within a couple of months but might be unable to take formal refuge
The first time I read The Four Noble Truths I knew I was a Buddhist. My parents didn't approve. Other people told me I had to be Asian. When you know you are, it doesn't matter what anyone says.
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