What happens in those 3 year retreats?

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Padmist
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What happens in those 3 year retreats?

Post by Padmist »

When people talk about going to India or to a cave in the Himalayas for a 3 year retreats, what happens there? Meditation all day minus sleep? Are these for everyone? or do you have to be a Buddhist? Are these for all Buddhists or only for those who want to be a monk?
Cinnabar
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Re: What happens in those 3 year retreats?

Post by Cinnabar »

I don’t know.

I was told I could never be a candidate for a long solitary retreat.

So I gave up that aspiration long ago.

I just know what close dharma siblings did.
Natan
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Re: What happens in those 3 year retreats?

Post by Natan »

It's a lot. Starts with preliminaries, proceeds to empowerment, deity yoga, completion stage, fire pumas, ganapuja, Mahamudra, Dzogchen, etc. There's a schedule that starts around 4 am and ends around 6 or 8 pm. There is sleep, though sometimes sitting up in a box. It's intense for sure.
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Re: What happens in those 3 year retreats?

Post by pemachophel »

Yes, you have to be a Buddhist to do the kind of retreat you're describing. And no, it's not for all Buddhists. The institutionalized three-year retreats I believe you're talking about are mainly for those Buddhists who aspire to become Lamas. Typically one takes monk's or nun's vows during the retreat. After the retreat, one may or may not continue with those vows. Crazywisdom's description of the curriculum is basically accurate, but the exact curriculum will vary depending on the school of Tibetan Buddhism and the retreat center itself.

It is also possible to do non-institutionalized three-year retreats where the schedule and curriculum is worked out either between the Teacher and student or by the practitioner him or herself. In the latter case, this is typically an advanced practitioner who often has done a previous institutionalized retreat.
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bryandavis
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Re: What happens in those 3 year retreats?

Post by bryandavis »

You can say there is a "curriculum" that takes place in a three year retreat. This curriculum will vary by lineage/school. Within the same school there can be variations in some of the material passed on. This is due the the sub lineages of teaching styles that retreat master might hold.

You are essentially becoming familiar and getting a taste of these practices. It is like an overview course. This allows one to potentially guide others in that particular lineages practice cycle. Lama is a title that may or may not be bestowed onto a retreatant who completes the cycle. Ones Guru, Lineage tradition and politics as it applies to institutionalization will determine "titles". What dharma one can authentically pass on after this retreat might vary as to what a tantra says on the matter of practice and accumulation compared to what your handlers might say.

Mostly your are spending a minium of 12 hrs a day engaged in the practices broken into 4 sessions. At best you are absorbed in dharma activity from the time you wake until sleep. Later you are given methods to access deep sleep and dreams and take those on the path. Though this is not so easy, even for retreatants.

Assuming a stable mind is in possession of the person who decides to enter such a retreat, there is no reason a non buddhist would enter such an endeavor.

One can do retreat for any length of time outside of this traditional institutional kind. 3 years 3 months 3days is connected to calculation from the kalachakra cycle with regards body and breath, and the potential of wisdom awareness via the body in ones lifespan.

If one was so inclined and somehow managed they could do a 3 year retreat on any singular practice.

All the best,
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Dragpo
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Re: What happens in those 3 year retreats?

Post by Dragpo »

Here is an example that matches the descriptions above.

The daily practice schedule changes as various practices are added to the daily commitment, but a typical day is as follows:

4:00 Yoga of Awakening, Ngöndro (Preliminary practices)
5:35 Chutor (Water Offering)
6:00-8:00 Group Chanting: Tara and other prayers
8:00-8:20 Breakfast
8:20-10:30 Main Practice Session 1 followed by aspiration prayers
10:50-11:45 Tibetan Yoga with group
12:00-2:00pm Lunch and free time, or work, depending on schedule
2:00-4:30 Main Practice Session 2 followed by aspiration prayers
5:00-7:00 Group Chanting: Mahakala
7:00-7:15 Dinner
7:15-8:30 Dorje Purba, Practice Session 3
8:30-9:50 Concluding Rituals, Chöd, aspiration prayers
From: http://www.kagyu.com/monastery/124-thre ... ar-retreat, another schedule - https://milareparetreat.org/index.php/e ... ar-retreat
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conebeckham
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Re: What happens in those 3 year retreats?

Post by conebeckham »

Get a copy of Jamgon Kongtrul's Retreat Manual. It outlines a very detailed (and far too rigorous) program for the daily practice schedule, the variety of Main Practices which form the core of the four daily sessions, and the monthly and yearly group rituals, that were done at Tsadra Rinchen Drak when he was there.

Things have relaxed a bit since that time, and even in Himalayan communities the sheer volume of exposure to practices is not as intense.

I've not done a three retreat, but have done shorter retreats following similar schedule. Retreat is a blessing, but it is not easy for most.
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Nicholas2727
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Re: What happens in those 3 year retreats?

Post by Nicholas2727 »

Padmist wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:59 am When people talk about going to India or to a cave in the Himalayas for a 3 year retreats, what happens there? Meditation all day minus sleep? Are these for everyone? or do you have to be a Buddhist? Are these for all Buddhists or only for those who want to be a monk?
I'm also curious about the last part of your question. I remember reading somewhere that if one wants to be a lama in the Nyingma, Kagyu or Jonang traditions they must complete a three year retreat, not sure if this is a requirement for Sakya or Gelug as well or if my statement is even accurate. The retreat seems to be for those who are serious practitioners, shorter retreats may be best for someone to begin with.
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bryandavis
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Re: What happens in those 3 year retreats?

Post by bryandavis »

Nicholas2727 wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:55 pm
Padmist wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:59 am When people talk about going to India or to a cave in the Himalayas for a 3 year retreats, what happens there? Meditation all day minus sleep? Are these for everyone? or do you have to be a Buddhist? Are these for all Buddhists or only for those who want to be a monk?
I'm also curious about the last part of your question. I remember reading somewhere that if one wants to be a lama in the Nyingma, Kagyu or Jonang traditions they must complete a three year retreat, not sure if this is a requirement for Sakya or Gelug as well or if my statement is even accurate. The retreat seems to be for those who are serious practitioners, shorter retreats may be best for someone to begin with.
What last part do you want to know?
Last edited by bryandavis on Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: What happens in those 3 year retreats?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

In group retreats interpersonal irritation and conflict are common. In theory it's part of the process. It allows you to see your own negativities in action. In fact, the retreat master here refuses to green light solo retreats because without irritating people in close proximity a person can (falsely) believe they are making progress.

Ya know, at my age, I'll take the superficial progress. It might not be deep realization, but I'm sure it will be of some benefit in the bardo.
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2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
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Nicholas2727
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Re: What happens in those 3 year retreats?

Post by Nicholas2727 »

bryandavis wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:32 pm
Nicholas2727 wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:55 pm
Padmist wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:59 am When people talk about going to India or to a cave in the Himalayas for a 3 year retreats, what happens there? Meditation all day minus sleep? Are these for everyone? or do you have to be a Buddhist? Are these for all Buddhists or only for those who want to be a monk?
I'm also curious about the last part of your question. I remember reading somewhere that if one wants to be a lama in the Nyingma, Kagyu or Jonang traditions they must complete a three year retreat, not sure if this is a requirement for Sakya or Gelug as well or if my statement is even accurate. The retreat seems to be for those who are serious practitioners, shorter retreats may be best for someone to begin with.
What last part do you want to know?
The part I haven't found a clear answer (although I have not looked that much into it) was if one wants to become a monk do they have to complete a three year retreat. I mentioned in the other post that I believe I read somewhere if one wants to be a lama in the Nyingma, Kagyu or Jonang they must complete a three year retreat, but I have not heard if this requirement is also in the Sakya and Gelug tradition.
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bryandavis
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Re: What happens in those 3 year retreats?

Post by bryandavis »

One does not need to join a 3year retreat to be a monastic in the Tibetan lineages. One needs to be ordained in the proper way following a lineage or ordination.

If one has a real desire and calling to live this kind of life then it is something to rejoice in. However checking ones motivation and being super brutally honest with our escapist tendencies and imprints should be examined. I have found, and its just my own karmic vision here, that there is large majority of beings looking for a way out of the trappings of samsaric / ordinary life. This won't happen. There will be a new trap.

Its just not a viable option in the west, we do not have the culture of sponsorship, patrons etc. Going to India and Nepal to accomplish this goal will have its own problems, you will most likely never integrate into the culture that holds these options of monastic life.

Becoming a "Lama" after a three year retreat is dependent on factors of your accomplishment, lineage, your own teacher, politics, worldly matters etc. Lama is thrown around a bit much loosely. Lama really means Guru, and to be a qualified Guru is not something that a 3year retreat is guaranteed to produce. If one does a 3year retreat with all its technical aspects completed then one from scriptural authority could bestow wants, lung, tri.

Also, there are lineage holders, teachers, lamas, etc who have deep experience and profound realization who have not done a "3year" retreat. Realization is born through practice. Practice / familiarization and seeing what was not seen before unfolds in many ways. We are not limited to sequestering somewhere for attainments to manifest.

Howeve, a Guru in the truest sense is someone who has ripened their whole being with the intimate instructions of there own Gurus and who can compassionately and skillfully guide others on a path of liberation.

I could go on, but maybe this is enough. :cheers:
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Re: What happens in those 3 year retreats?

Post by Bristollad »

bryandavis wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:32 am Its just not a viable option in the west, we do not have the culture of sponsorship, patrons etc. Going to India and Nepal to accomplish this goal will have its own problems, you will most likely never integrate into the culture that holds these options of monastic life.
It is not an easy option and there are many obstacles but is viable.

Lama Thubten Yeshe's advice to Western students who wanted to ordain was they needed to have sufficient means to support themselves for at least three years. Then, if they were living properly according to the Vinaya, support, sponsors etc. would appear. Most monastics I've known who disrobed did so not because of a lack of support, but because of a desire to live like the laity.

Some people have the fantasy that becoming a monastic will allow them to escape from it all and be free. However, becoming a monastic is more akin to joining the military - you join a hierarchy (at the bottom), you are told what to eat and when to eat, what to wear and what not to wear, you are told where to live and even what you can do in your spare time. Becoming a Buddhist monastic is about joining a community of practitioners who are all following a quite rigid set of rules and discipline - not about being free to do your own thing.
The antidote—to be free from the suffering of samsara—you need to be free from delusion and karma; you need to be free from ignorance, the root of samsara. So you need to meditate on emptiness. That is what you need. Lama Zopa Rinpoche
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bryandavis
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Re: What happens in those 3 year retreats?

Post by bryandavis »

Bristollad wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:41 am
bryandavis wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:32 am Its just not a viable option in the west, we do not have the culture of sponsorship, patrons etc. Going to India and Nepal to accomplish this goal will have its own problems, you will most likely never integrate into the culture that holds these options of monastic life.
It is not an easy option and there are many obstacles but is viable.

Lama Thubten Yeshe's advice to Western students who wanted to ordain was they needed to have sufficient means to support themselves for at least three years. Then, if they were living properly according to the Vinaya, support, sponsors etc. would appear. Most monastics I've known who disrobed did so not because of a lack of support, but because of a desire to live like the laity.

Some people have the fantasy that becoming a monastic will allow them to escape from it all and be free. However, becoming a monastic is more akin to joining the military - you join a hierarchy (at the bottom), you are told what to eat and when to eat, what to wear and what not to wear, you are told where to live and even what you can do in your spare time. Becoming a Buddhist monastic is about joining a community of practitioners who are all following a quite rigid set of rules and discipline - not about being free to do your own thing.
Your last paragraph is very true. Many many westerners I have spoke to over the course of 20 years or so who have voiced some interested in a monastic life, they actually are imputing a fantasy of living as a recluse on the label of monk. I do not agree that being a monastic for most in the west is viable, by definition. FPMT is really the only group that has some sort of global structure for westerners. One group doest not really cut it as far as options.

That being said, Im not discouraging or disparaging anyone or any organization.

Also, the mere fact of advice like "be able to support yourself for three years" is just not in the realms of what most people I have encountered who were contemplating leaving laity. As well "after three years sponsors will show up" is also a faith based assumption. I wholly believe personally the 3 jewels will always provide but...

I can think off the top of my head 5 people I have know who renounced, took vows entered monastic life and left do to it not being viable, all of them made it pass three years. None of them were FPMT monastics :thinking: Anyhow, this is just my own experience and is not universal.
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Re: What happens in those 3 year retreats?

Post by Soma999 »

I fully agree. It is of the utmost importance to really check one's intention.

If the intention is distorded, even slightly, maybe it does not look big. But after 10 000 km, the slightest distorsion may bring you to another place, far from what you expected.

Even the highest practice, if approached without boddicitta, is just no better than anything.

Maybe one can be a wandering yogi in Tibet, a sadhus that renounce the world in India, a monk in a monastery...

But when coming in the occidental world, the sadhus learn to make money, the yogis find his hermitage in his meditation and practice, the world becomes your charnel ground where your duality, slowly, gets reduced by integrating higher aspect of consciousness in your life.

It is of the highest importance to adapt to the world you are.

A 3 year retreat don’t make the master. It can creates good results for some people, but nothing is sure.

Becoming a master is not something that happens by following a conventional way. It holds mystery. You can’t be a master in a « school of master ».

You don’t become a saint in school. It is not so simple.

You can live and integrate higher aspect of consciousness from home, having an « occidental » life and following your guru, doing your practice and following the way that is yours, a way of light and bodicitta that does not cut you from life.

If really a three year retreat is good for someone, the occasion may appears when the time is ripe.
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Re: What happens in those 3 year retreats?

Post by jmlee369 »

Nicholas2727 wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:55 pm
Padmist wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:59 am When people talk about going to India or to a cave in the Himalayas for a 3 year retreats, what happens there? Meditation all day minus sleep? Are these for everyone? or do you have to be a Buddhist? Are these for all Buddhists or only for those who want to be a monk?
I'm also curious about the last part of your question. I remember reading somewhere that if one wants to be a lama in the Nyingma, Kagyu or Jonang traditions they must complete a three year retreat, not sure if this is a requirement for Sakya or Gelug as well or if my statement is even accurate. The retreat seems to be for those who are serious practitioners, shorter retreats may be best for someone to begin with.
For Gelug, most of the lamas who travel extensively and guide large numbers of disciples will not have completed a three year retreat. I doubt if any of the Dalai Lamas since the 5th have completed a retreat that long. The minimum requirements for acting as a tantric ritual master would be to complete the approximation/enabling retreat of a yidam (depending on the yidam, could be as short as a week), which then permits you to do things like consecration rituals, fire pujas, mandala rites (like self initiation, and initiation for others once other conditions are met). I should also mention a three year retreat in Gelug focuses on a single deity, engaging in four daily sessions of one yidam for the whole three years, three months. You would complete the preliminary practices prior to starting the three year retreat.
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Re: What happens in those 3 year retreats?

Post by DewachenVagabond »

Nicholas2727 wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:15 am
bryandavis wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:32 pm
Nicholas2727 wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:55 pm

I'm also curious about the last part of your question. I remember reading somewhere that if one wants to be a lama in the Nyingma, Kagyu or Jonang traditions they must complete a three year retreat, not sure if this is a requirement for Sakya or Gelug as well or if my statement is even accurate. The retreat seems to be for those who are serious practitioners, shorter retreats may be best for someone to begin with.
What last part do you want to know?
The part I haven't found a clear answer (although I have not looked that much into it) was if one wants to become a monk do they have to complete a three year retreat. I mentioned in the other post that I believe I read somewhere if one wants to be a lama in the Nyingma, Kagyu or Jonang they must complete a three year retreat, but I have not heard if this requirement is also in the Sakya and Gelug tradition.
A lama does not have to be a monastic.
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Re: What happens in those 3 year retreats?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

A lama does not have to be a monastic.
And a monk is not necessarily a lama.

A monk is a male that has taken a specific set of vows. All that is required is that he requests the vows, and that a small assembly of monks that already hold those vows to give them to him.

Roughly speaking, a lama is someone that has done a 3 year retreat and has been granted the title to him by his teacher(s). Quite often they take the monk’s vows for the duration of the retreat. The may or may not give them back at the end of the retreat.
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2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
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Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: What happens in those 3 year retreats?

Post by Nicholas2727 »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:37 pm
A lama does not have to be a monastic.
And a monk is not necessarily a lama.

A monk is a male that has taken a specific set of vows. All that is required is that he requests the vows, and that a small assembly of monks that already hold those vows to give them to him.

Roughly speaking, a lama is someone that has done a 3 year retreat and has been granted the title to him by his teacher(s). Quite often they take the monk’s vows for the duration of the retreat. The may or may not give them back at the end of the retreat.
Yes, I should not have used lama and monk in the way I did for my previous statement. Specifically I was referring to a person who wants to become a monk and then a lama. If they do, I have read that some traditions require at least a three year retreat (just doing it does not grant you the title of lama) and possibly more training, but in other traditions (Sakya/Gelug) I have not seen this claim. Some of the previous replies clarified some of the questions I had on this.
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Re: What happens in those 3 year retreats?

Post by florin »

Time spent in retreat does not guarantee that one will obtain the knowledge and qualities a lama must have. I know of people who spent time in such retreats, some even did 2 or 3 consecutive ones, but they cannot all be considered true lamas. Some have benefited tremendously and are deserving of the title of lama, others not so much.
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