Does a Vegan Damaru exist anywhere?

Forum for discussion of Tibetan Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
Cinnabar
Posts: 187
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:59 pm

Re: Does a Vegan Damaru exist anywhere?

Post by Cinnabar »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:35 pm
Cinnabar wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:49 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:48 pm

People can do whatever they want and they do. But there is no such a thing as a vegan damaru. Damarus are made with skulls and skin.
I am aware they are made of skulls and skin.

But my question stands. If I move to where my partner is, and can not import animal products, does that mean I can't practice vajrayana with a damaru with a nonleather skin?
I answered your question already.
You said "People can do whatever they want and they do".

Sure. I can do whatever I want. Break my vows. Invent my own black dharma. Kill my teacher.

That doesn't answer my question as to whether I can pracitce vajrayana or not with a damaru with a nonleather skin.
User avatar
Könchok Chödrak
Posts: 544
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:12 pm
Location: ༀ ∞ Nam Myoho Renge Kyo ∞ ༀ

Re: Does a Vegan Damaru exist anywhere?

Post by Könchok Chödrak »

No you can’t do those things. It’s not allowed. But when someone tells you that you can do something good in such an instance, as using a synthetic drum, usually, it means that you’re allowed if the advice is valid. That’s my interpretation! Focus on the good and believe in your Buddha-Nature. Think of your purpose.
User avatar
Jangchup Donden
Posts: 367
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:44 am

Re: Does a Vegan Damaru exist anywhere?

Post by Jangchup Donden »

Cinnabar wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:42 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:35 pm
Cinnabar wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:49 pm

I am aware they are made of skulls and skin.

But my question stands. If I move to where my partner is, and can not import animal products, does that mean I can't practice vajrayana with a damaru with a nonleather skin?
I answered your question already.
You said "People can do whatever they want and they do".

Sure. I can do whatever I want. Break my vows. Invent my own black dharma. Kill my teacher.

That doesn't answer my question as to whether I can pracitce vajrayana or not with a damaru with a nonleather skin.
Personally I think practicing with Bodhichitta and pure view are way more important to your Vajrayana practice than the materials of your ritual implements. You certainly cannot practice Vajrayana without Bodhichitta, however there are stories of enlightened masters conferring empowerments with chamber pots.

If you can find a non-leather damaru (this might be a bigger question) perhaps you can visualize it as a leather one, if you're really that worried.

But then again I'm not enlightened so I don't know the long term karma of any of this.

Also, like if you have a leather damaru and it's packed up in your luggage when you move, I doubt anyone will be checking that closely.
Cinnabar
Posts: 187
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:59 pm

Re: Does a Vegan Damaru exist anywhere?

Post by Cinnabar »

Jangchup Donden wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:57 pm Personally I think practicing with Bodhichitta and pure view are way more important to your Vajrayana practice than the materials of your ritual implements. You certainly cannot practice Vajrayana without Bodhichitta, however there are stories of enlightened masters conferring empowerments with chamber pots.

If you can find a non-leather damaru (this might be a bigger question) perhaps you can visualize it as a leather one, if you're really that worried.

But then again I'm not enlightened so I don't know the long term karma of any of this.

Also, like if you have a leather damaru and it's packed up in your luggage when you move, I doubt anyone will be checking that closely.
I'm not particularly worried.

This is just a theme that comes up often: having adequate vajrayana hardware.

There's no doubt that the tradition is very specific about there being ritual supports for practice, samaya objects, special offerings and ritual items for activity practices and achieving siddhis. I have received those instructions from my own teachers. But it's also the case that the same teachers have said that one can practice without these supports. As you say, one can visualize them. Improvise. In the case of activity rituals, they may not work without the ritual specifics, but one can still be a practitioner. Make one's life meaningful. Even as one's damaru gets seized by cutoms.
Malcolm
Posts: 34298
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Does a Vegan Damaru exist anywhere?

Post by Malcolm »

Cinnabar wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:42 pm That doesn't answer my question as to whether I can pracitce vajrayana or not with a damaru with a nonleather skin.
It does. But there is still no such thing as a vegan damaru, at least, not in any tantra with which I am familiar.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
Cinnabar
Posts: 187
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:59 pm

Re: Does a Vegan Damaru exist anywhere?

Post by Cinnabar »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:08 pm
Cinnabar wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:42 pm That doesn't answer my question as to whether I can pracitce vajrayana or not with a damaru with a nonleather skin.
It does. But there is still no such thing as a vegan damaru, at least, not in any tantra with which I am familiar.
I never said there was a vegan damaru.

My damaru certainly isn’t vegan.

And no. You didn’t answer my sincere question. You were quite oblique.

“People can do what they want” can be taken in myriad ways.
Malcolm
Posts: 34298
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Does a Vegan Damaru exist anywhere?

Post by Malcolm »

Cinnabar wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:37 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:08 pm
Cinnabar wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:42 pm That doesn't answer my question as to whether I can pracitce vajrayana or not with a damaru with a nonleather skin.
It does. But there is still no such thing as a vegan damaru, at least, not in any tantra with which I am familiar.
I never said there was a vegan damaru.

My damaru certainly isn’t vegan.

And no. You didn’t answer my sincere question. You were quite oblique.

“People can do what they want” can be taken in myriad ways.
I did answer it. You just didn't like the answer.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
User avatar
Könchok Chödrak
Posts: 544
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:12 pm
Location: ༀ ∞ Nam Myoho Renge Kyo ∞ ༀ

Re: Does a Vegan Damaru exist anywhere?

Post by Könchok Chödrak »

Cinnabar wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:37 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:08 pm
Cinnabar wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:42 pm That doesn't answer my question as to whether I can pracitce vajrayana or not with a damaru with a nonleather skin.
It does. But there is still no such thing as a vegan damaru, at least, not in any tantra with which I am familiar.
I never said there was a vegan damaru.

My damaru certainly isn’t vegan.

And no. You didn’t answer my sincere question. You were quite oblique.

“People can do what they want” can be taken in myriad ways.
Well there’s a difference between Tibetan Buddhist advice and the wild-wild west, so what is meant is that you are free to practice how you want as long as it is valid in Buddhism in using your proper judgement :smile: . You are a smart Buddhist doing a powerful practice, so “whatever you want” implies you know what you’re doing and can make the proper choices, and you can. Om Mani Padme Hum.
Last edited by Könchok Chödrak on Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cinnabar
Posts: 187
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:59 pm

Re: Does a Vegan Damaru exist anywhere?

Post by Cinnabar »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:44 pm
Cinnabar wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:37 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:08 pm

It does. But there is still no such thing as a vegan damaru, at least, not in any tantra with which I am familiar.
I never said there was a vegan damaru.

My damaru certainly isn’t vegan.

And no. You didn’t answer my sincere question. You were quite oblique.

“People can do what they want” can be taken in myriad ways.
I did answer it. You just didn't like the answer.
Well, if the answer is that one can’t practice vajrayana without a proper damaru, how does one reconcile that with instructions that one should work with one’s circumstances. And if one has no physical supports, to persevere?

Certainly one might not attain siddhis or accomplish activity practices, but one can still practice, no?

I don’t particularly have a dog in this fight. I have re-skinned my damarus with leather several times. When I move, I can bring them in unskinned and reskin them there.
pemachophel
Posts: 1769
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 9:19 pm
Location: Lafayette, CO

Re: Does a Vegan Damaru exist anywhere?

Post by pemachophel »

Cinnabar,

I need to reskin one of my damarus. What do you use to hold the skin in place while the glue is drying, and what kind of glue do you use?

You can PM me.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
karmanyingpo
Posts: 451
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:19 pm

Re: Does a Vegan Damaru exist anywhere?

Post by karmanyingpo »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:44 pm
Cinnabar wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:37 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:08 pm

It does. But there is still no such thing as a vegan damaru, at least, not in any tantra with which I am familiar.
I never said there was a vegan damaru.

My damaru certainly isn’t vegan.

And no. You didn’t answer my sincere question. You were quite oblique.

“People can do what they want” can be taken in myriad ways.
I did answer it. You just didn't like the answer.
If we rephrase the question to, can one practice chod to positive effect with a damaru that is made non traditionally, with only vegan materials, what would the answer be? (and then to expand, to what extant can one practice chod and accomplish the practice truly with such a damaru?)

Just wondering too. I am not a vegan nor am I needing to travel to a strict custom country any time soon.


KN
ma lu dzok pe san gye thop par shok!
Nicholas2727
Posts: 52
Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2019 5:44 am

Re: Does a Vegan Damaru exist anywhere?

Post by Nicholas2727 »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:21 am
peterscott87 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:29 pm Looking for a damaru without leather. My teacher told me no such thing exists, and I've searched everywhere with no luck, but I have hope that maybe someone has more extensive knowledge than me.
Doesn’t exist. Vajrayana and Veganism are mutually exclusive.
Are you saying that one can not be vegan and practice Vajrayana? Or are you just saying a damaru used in Vajrayana can not be vegan?
Cinnabar
Posts: 187
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:59 pm

Re: Does a Vegan Damaru exist anywhere?

Post by Cinnabar »

karmanyingpo wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:31 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:44 pm
Cinnabar wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:37 pm

I never said there was a vegan damaru.

My damaru certainly isn’t vegan.

And no. You didn’t answer my sincere question. You were quite oblique.

“People can do what they want” can be taken in myriad ways.
I did answer it. You just didn't like the answer.
If we rephrase the question to, can one practice chod to positive effect with a damaru that is made non traditionally, with only vegan materials, what would the answer be? (and then to expand, to what extant can one practice chod and accomplish the practice truly with such a damaru?)

Just wondering too. I am not a vegan nor am I needing to travel to a strict custom country any time soon.


KN
Well. The OP didn’t mention Chod. The Machig Namshe has very specific guidelines for ritual items if I remember correctly. That would be a case where I’d say accomplishments depend on ones supports.

I have been just thinking of little damarus for pujas.
Danny
Posts: 673
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:43 pm

Re: Does a Vegan Damaru exist anywhere?

Post by Danny »

Nicholas2727 wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:49 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:21 am
peterscott87 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:29 pm Looking for a damaru without leather. My teacher told me no such thing exists, and I've searched everywhere with no luck, but I have hope that maybe someone has more extensive knowledge than me.
Doesn’t exist. Vajrayana and Veganism are mutually exclusive.
Are you saying that one can not be vegan and practice Vajrayana? Or are you just saying a damaru used in Vajrayana can not be vegan?
Smith has been telling you all .... no product exists.
i.e. they don’t make them....
He’s not saying vegan etc...

He’s saying you won’t find one to buy..

F***k me it a so simple...

If one wants to brag about being a vegan...

Go ahead. Lollipops included for your stance and heroics.
Well all be clapping your a vegan and what nots.
Last edited by Danny on Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Nicholas2727
Posts: 52
Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2019 5:44 am

Re: Does a Vegan Damaru exist anywhere?

Post by Nicholas2727 »

Danny wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:53 pm
Nicholas2727 wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:49 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:21 am

Doesn’t exist. Vajrayana and Veganism are mutually exclusive.
Are you saying that one can not be vegan and practice Vajrayana? Or are you just saying a damaru used in Vajrayana can not be vegan?
Smith has been telling you all .... no product exists.
i.e. they don’t make them....
He’s not saying vegan etc...

He’s saying you won’t find one to buy..

F***k me it a so simple...
I understand that, I never asked if one exists. I was asking if he meant that Vajrayana and Veganism were truly mutually exclusive. My question has nothing to do with a damaru.
Danny
Posts: 673
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:43 pm

Re: Does a Vegan Damaru exist anywhere?

Post by Danny »

Nicholas2727 wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:58 pm
Danny wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:53 pm
Nicholas2727 wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:49 pm

Are you saying that one can not be vegan and practice Vajrayana? Or are you just saying a damaru used in Vajrayana can not be vegan?
Smith has been telling you all .... no product exists.
i.e. they don’t make them....
He’s not saying vegan etc...

He’s saying you won’t find one to buy..

F***k me it a so simple...
I understand that, I never asked if one exists. I was asking if he meant that Vajrayana and Veganism were truly mutually exclusive. My question has nothing to do with a damaru.
Then smith is saying ...

So what .. your circumstances, you deal with it.
You figure it out..
Nothing to do with vajrayana
Nicholas2727
Posts: 52
Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2019 5:44 am

Re: Does a Vegan Damaru exist anywhere?

Post by Nicholas2727 »

Danny wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:59 pm
Nicholas2727 wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:58 pm
Danny wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:53 pm

Smith has been telling you all .... no product exists.
i.e. they don’t make them....
He’s not saying vegan etc...

He’s saying you won’t find one to buy..

F***k me it a so simple...
I understand that, I never asked if one exists. I was asking if he meant that Vajrayana and Veganism were truly mutually exclusive. My question has nothing to do with a damaru.
Then smith is saying ...

So what .. your circumstances, you deal with it.
You figure it out..
Nothing to do with vajrayana
Malcolm's exact statement was "Vajrayana and Veganism are mutually exclusive." All I asked was for him to clarify if he was referring to this statement specifically for a damaru, which we both already know does not exist, or if he meant that Vajrayana and Veganism are truly mutually exclusive like his statement says. I don't know why you are getting worked up from this, maybe we should just wait and have Malcolm answer.

Metta
Danny
Posts: 673
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:43 pm

Re: Does a Vegan Damaru exist anywhere?

Post by Danny »

Nicholas2727 wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:08 am
Danny wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:59 pm
Nicholas2727 wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:58 pm

I understand that, I never asked if one exists. I was asking if he meant that Vajrayana and Veganism were truly mutually exclusive. My question has nothing to do with a damaru.
Then smith is saying ...

So what .. your circumstances, you deal with it.
You figure it out..
Nothing to do with vajrayana
Malcolm's exact statement was "Vajrayana and Veganism are mutually exclusive." All I asked was for him to clarify if he was referring to this statement specifically for a damaru, which we both already know does not exist, or if he meant that Vajrayana and Veganism are truly mutually exclusive like his statement says. I don't know why you are getting worked up from this, maybe we should just wait and have Malcolm answer.

Metta

Bro I’m not worked up. That imputing something that is not there. Again that’s a “u” issue and not mine.
Trying to insert sutra into tantra won’t help you understand experience “tantra”.

Bringing wokeness to the tantra path is a huge obstacle.
It’s that old and ceritified, by lineage Masters.

Get over it.
User avatar
tobes
Posts: 1888
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:02 am

Re: Does a Vegan Damaru exist anywhere?

Post by tobes »

Jangchup Donden wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:57 pm
Cinnabar wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:42 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:35 pm

I answered your question already.
You said "People can do whatever they want and they do".

Sure. I can do whatever I want. Break my vows. Invent my own black dharma. Kill my teacher.

That doesn't answer my question as to whether I can pracitce vajrayana or not with a damaru with a nonleather skin.
Personally I think practicing with Bodhichitta and pure view are way more important to your Vajrayana practice than the materials of your ritual implements. You certainly cannot practice Vajrayana without Bodhichitta, however there are stories of enlightened masters conferring empowerments with chamber pots.

If you can find a non-leather damaru (this might be a bigger question) perhaps you can visualize it as a leather one, if you're really that worried.

But then again I'm not enlightened so I don't know the long term karma of any of this.

Also, like if you have a leather damaru and it's packed up in your luggage when you move, I doubt anyone will be checking that closely.
Agreed. When the symbolic things become too fixed in lieu of tradition, the actual point of symbols is really being missed.
karmanyingpo
Posts: 451
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:19 pm

Re: Does a Vegan Damaru exist anywhere?

Post by karmanyingpo »

Cinnabar wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:49 pm
karmanyingpo wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:31 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:44 pm

I did answer it. You just didn't like the answer.
If we rephrase the question to, can one practice chod to positive effect with a damaru that is made non traditionally, with only vegan materials, what would the answer be? (and then to expand, to what extant can one practice chod and accomplish the practice truly with such a damaru?)

Just wondering too. I am not a vegan nor am I needing to travel to a strict custom country any time soon.


KN
Well. The OP didn’t mention Chod. The Machig Namshe has very specific guidelines for ritual items if I remember correctly. That would be a case where I’d say accomplishments depend on ones supports.

I have been just thinking of little damarus for pujas.
You are right, sorry. I can rephrase my question to something like..
can one do Vajrayana practice requiring a damaru to positive effect with a damaru that is made non traditionally, with only vegan materials? (and then to expand, to what extant can one practice Vajrayana and accomplish the practice truly with such a damaru?). I think that is what many of us are really wondering, right?


KN
ma lu dzok pe san gye thop par shok!
Post Reply

Return to “Tibetan Buddhism”