Can you give back tantric vows if you don't want them anymore?

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Boomerang
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Can you give back tantric vows if you don't want them anymore?

Post by Boomerang »

I thought you couldn't give them back, but someone told me otherwise.
fckw
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Re: Can you give back tantric vows if you don't want them anymore?

Post by fckw »

You can only give them back if you did not take them seriously in the first place.
Malcolm
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Re: Can you give back tantric vows if you don't want them anymore?

Post by Malcolm »

fckw wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:03 pm You can only give them back if you did not take them seriously in the first place.
No, one cannot give back Vajrayāna vows. Practice commitments are one thing; the general samayas are another.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Can you give back tantric vows if you don't want them anymore?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Maybe you can sell them on eBay
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ajhayes
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Re: Can you give back tantric vows if you don't want them anymore?

Post by ajhayes »

Boomerang wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:57 pm I thought you couldn't give them back, but someone told me otherwise.
If you're not using them, I'll take them.
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Könchok Chödrak
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Re: Can you give back tantric vows if you don't want them anymore?

Post by Könchok Chödrak »

If you have a serious question about Samaya I would ask your Guru, because Vows are very serious commitments, some take Buddhist Vows as seriously as marriage Vows, so be kind to yourself and treat your commitment with respect, while at the same time, you must look for guidance in a Superior Source. A Guru. :smile:
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Re: Can you give back tantric vows if you don't want them anymore?

Post by pemachophel »

Tantric vows are much, much more serious than marriage vows. Not even close. Tantric vows last for lifetime after lifetime.

Talking with your Guru is, of course, good advice, IF one has a personal relationship with their Guru with whom they can have a frank, heart-felt discussion face to face (in meat-space or via electrons). However, not having such a close, personal relationship may be part of the OP's problem.

Whenever I go to empowerments, I so, so want the Teacher to really explain the gravity of what the students are about to undertake. Unfortunately, too often that doesn't happen. To me, this is a serious problem within 21st century Vajrayana that needs to be addressed.

To the OP, I'm sorry you didn't understand what you were getting into. I'm sorry you no longer what to practice Vajrayana. If you don't want to practice, that's one thing, but please, please don't develop ill-will towards your Teacher or the Teachings. Especially don't dis Them to others. Just leave them be and try to hold Them in respect in your heart-mind.

Good luck & best wishes.
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Malcolm
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Re: Can you give back tantric vows if you don't want them anymore?

Post by Malcolm »

pemachophel wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:52 pm Tantric vows last for lifetime after lifetime.
No, they do not. They perish at death because they are connected with the body.

The only vow not lost at death is the bodhisattva vow.

So what is the impact of not keeping pure samaya in this life? In future lives, one will be parted from the guru who leads one to liberation. However, the vow itself is lost at death. This is why it is important for people to purify their samaya before they die.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
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Boomerang
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Re: Can you give back tantric vows if you don't want them anymore?

Post by Boomerang »

pemachophel wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:52 pm Tantric vows are much, much more serious than marriage vows. Not even close. Tantric vows last for lifetime after lifetime.

Talking with your Guru is, of course, good advice, IF one has a personal relationship with their Guru with whom they can have a frank, heart-felt discussion face to face (in meat-space or via electrons). However, not having such a close, personal relationship may be part of the OP's problem.

Whenever I go to empowerments, I so, so want the Teacher to really explain the gravity of what the students are about to undertake. Unfortunately, too often that doesn't happen. To me, this is a serious problem within 21st century Vajrayana that needs to be addressed.

To the OP, I'm sorry you didn't understand what you were getting into. I'm sorry you no longer what to practice Vajrayana. If you don't want to practice, that's one thing, but please, please don't develop ill-will towards your Teacher or the Teachings. Especially don't dis Them to others. Just leave them be and try to hold Them in respect in your heart-mind.

Good luck & best wishes.
No need to worry about me. I understand that samaya is serious.

I made this thread because I met a person who believes every type of vow can be returned in their sangha, including vajrayana vows.

I think this person is in a responsible community of practitioners, so you don't need to worry about them either.
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Re: Can you give back tantric vows if you don't want them anymore?

Post by Malcolm »

Boomerang wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:52 pm
I made this thread because I met a person who believes every type of vow can be returned in their sangha, including vajrayana vows.
They are mistaken on this point. One also cannot return bodhisattva vows. The only vows that can be returned are monastic vows.

Well, one can forsake refuge vows, but then you break everything.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
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Boomerang
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Re: Can you give back tantric vows if you don't want them anymore?

Post by Boomerang »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:21 pm
Boomerang wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:52 pm
I made this thread because I met a person who believes every type of vow can be returned in their sangha, including vajrayana vows.
They are mistaken on this point. One also cannot return bodhisattva vows. The only vows that can be returned are monastic vows.

Well, one can forsake refuge vows, but then you break everything.
Is there a text that explains this in plain language?
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Re: Can you give back tantric vows if you don't want them anymore?

Post by Malcolm »

Boomerang wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:23 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:21 pm
Boomerang wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:52 pm
I made this thread because I met a person who believes every type of vow can be returned in their sangha, including vajrayana vows.
They are mistaken on this point. One also cannot return bodhisattva vows. The only vows that can be returned are monastic vows.

Well, one can forsake refuge vows, but then you break everything.
Is there a text that explains this in plain language?
Not really. Bodhisattva vows and Vajrayāna vows only discuss violations, but not the procedure for returning them, since there is no procedure for returning them. The desire to return either of these two levels of vows is a violation of bodhisattva motivation.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
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Re: Can you give back tantric vows if you don't want them anymore?

Post by cjdevries »

I just read this. https://buddhism-controversy-blog.com/2 ... hist-vows/

An excerpt: "What was new to me is what our Tantra teacher in Italy, Geshe Jampa Gelek who studied the Buddhist Tantras in India, said some weeks ago: you can also give back the Bodhisattva and the Vajrayana vows."
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Malcolm
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Re: Can you give back tantric vows if you don't want them anymore?

Post by Malcolm »

cjdevries wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:06 pm I just read this. https://buddhism-controversy-blog.com/2 ... hist-vows/

An excerpt: "What was new to me is what our Tantra teacher in Italy, Geshe Jampa Gelek who studied the Buddhist Tantras in India, said some weeks ago: you can also give back the Bodhisattva and the Vajrayana vows."
As I said, there is no procedure for giving back bodhisattva vows, and by extension, Vajrayāna vows, since the latter are connected with the former, though lost a death. I have studied the three vows literature very extensively, and there is just no such remedy provided in the tantras or the sūtras for returning such vows.

One can certainly decide one no longer wishes to follow them, but there is no way to formally return them without incurring a downfall, unlike monastic vows, in which you can return them to the person who ordained you, or failing that, a senior member of the ordained sangha.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
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Boomerang
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Re: Can you give back tantric vows if you don't want them anymore?

Post by Boomerang »

For anyone who happens upon this thread years in the future, you can read page 192 of the Kindle version of The Treasury of Knowledge: Book Five: Buddhist Ethics by Jamgon Kongtrul Rinpoche and see that returning bodhisattva vows is not possible:

"Although the returning of vows is permitted in the personal liberation system, to return the commitments of the awakening mind would have extremely serious consequences and is therefore absolutely prohibited.

Dying, being reborn, forgetting [one’s previous existence], and so on, do not damage one’s commitments."


You can read that returning tantric vows is not possible in chapters 20 and 23 of Chogyam Trungpa's The Tantric Path of Indestructible Wakefulness: The Profound Treasury of the Ocean of Dharma, Volume Three.
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Re: Can you give back tantric vows if you don't want them anymore?

Post by Malcolm »

Boomerang wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:07 am For anyone who happens upon this thread years in the future, you can read page 192 of the Kindle version of The Treasury of Knowledge: Book Five: Buddhist Ethics by Jamgon Kongtrul Rinpoche and see that returning bodhisattva vows is not possible:

"Although the returning of vows is permitted in the personal liberation system, to return the commitments of the awakening mind would have extremely serious consequences and is therefore absolutely prohibited.

Dying, being reborn, forgetting [one’s previous existence], and so on, do not damage one’s commitments."


You can read that returning tantric vows is not possible in chapters 20 and 23 of Chogyam Trungpa's The Tantric Path of Indestructible Wakefulness: The Profound Treasury of the Ocean of Dharma, Volume Three.
Yes. This is all correct.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
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WeiHan
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Re: Can you give back tantric vows if you don't want them anymore?

Post by WeiHan »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:19 pm
pemachophel wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:52 pm Tantric vows last for lifetime after lifetime.
No, they do not. They perish at death because they are connected with the body.

The only vow not lost at death is the bodhisattva vow.

So what is the impact of not keeping pure samaya in this life? In future lives, one will be parted from the guru who leads one to liberation. However, the vow itself is lost at death. This is why it is important for people to purify their samaya before they die.
Will one be parted from the guru who leads one to liberation if one has more than one guru but break samaya only with one of them?
Malcolm
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Re: Can you give back tantric vows if you don't want them anymore?

Post by Malcolm »

WeiHan wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 5:37 pm
Will one be parted from the guru who leads one to liberation if one has more than one guru but break samaya only with one of them?
What do you mean by "break samaya."
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
WeiHan
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Re: Can you give back tantric vows if you don't want them anymore?

Post by WeiHan »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 6:16 pm
WeiHan wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 5:37 pm
Will one be parted from the guru who leads one to liberation if one has more than one guru but break samaya only with one of them?
What do you mean by "break samaya."
Thinking some of his/her behaviour is worse than some of ordinary beings, opportunistic, defensive, ignorant and even childish. Don't feel inspired anymore and do not attend his/her teachings, empowerments anymore. If I am not wrong, impure perception is already breaking of samaya..that is where also I suspect many vajrayanists are just pure hypocrirtes.
Malcolm
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Re: Can you give back tantric vows if you don't want them anymore?

Post by Malcolm »

WeiHan wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 6:36 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 6:16 pm
WeiHan wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 5:37 pm
Will one be parted from the guru who leads one to liberation if one has more than one guru but break samaya only with one of them?
What do you mean by "break samaya."
Thinking some of his/her behaviour is worse than some of ordinary beings, opportunistic, defensive, ignorant and even childish. Don't feel inspired anymore and do not attend his/her teachings, empowerments anymore. If I am not wrong, impure perception is already breaking of samaya..that is where also I suspect many vajrayanists are just pure hypocrirtes.
This is not breaking samaya. There is no samaya to have a unrealistic view of a given teacher. This is why we do not generally visualize our gurus in ordinary, impure forms, but rather, in the form of Vajradhara, Guru Rinpoche, our Yidam, etc.

In this case, what you do is you quietly move on. You don't have to criticize this person, but you are also not a slave.

And no, having negative feelings about a teacher you decide is not a qualified teacher does not constitute a cause to part with your root guru in future lives.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
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