Does everything cease to exist if every senteint being attains parinirvana?

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Shinjin
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Does everything cease to exist if every senteint being attains parinirvana?

Post by Shinjin »

Mod note: This side topic was split from here: https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 40#p615540
because there the OP explicitly asked to stay on topic.

Malcolm wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:32 pm
Shinjin wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:16 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 4:50 pm

Yes, but it is an infinity that has a limit. Meaning, no new sentient beings come into being. So it could be possible, but there are other factors that make it improbable.
In other words the number is actually finite but there's a high improbability of it ever happening because of icchantikas.

Well, we Madhyamakas don't actually admit there is such a thing as real icchantikas, but allow that there are de facto "icchanitikas"
in so far as there are some sentient beings who may never have the causes and conditions to meet the Dharma.
Does everything cease to exist if every senteint being attains parinirvana? No more earth, deva realms, pure lands, rainbow bodies etc?
Malcolm
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by Malcolm »

Shinjin wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 6:47 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:32 pm
Shinjin wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:16 pm
In other words the number is actually finite but there's a high improbability of it ever happening because of icchantikas.

Well, we Madhyamakas don't actually admit there is such a thing as real icchantikas, but allow that there are de facto "icchanitikas"
in so far as there are some sentient beings who may never have the causes and conditions to meet the Dharma.
Does everything cease to exist if every senteint being attains parinirvana? No more earth, deva realms, pure lands, rainbow bodies etc?
Yes, because the cause of outer universe is the result of collective karma of all sentient beings. No sentient beings, no karma, no outer universe left. All that will be left is the field of the wisdom of Buddhahood, which is actually all there is anyway, we just don't see it.
Miorita
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by Miorita »

At least Nichiren Buddhism is advancing the idea of progress in a concise way.

Nam myoho renge kyo
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by SkyFox »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:22 am
Zhen Li wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:37 am So, Dzogchen also teaches that it is inevitable that all beings will attain Buddhahood.
some Buddhas err and return to the state of being sentient beings.
If I may, would you explain what err is? Sounds really intresting. Can't seem to find more about this on google.
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

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ConfusedOne wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:38 am
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:22 am
Zhen Li wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:37 am So, Dzogchen also teaches that it is inevitable that all beings will attain Buddhahood.
some Buddhas err and return to the state of being sentient beings.
If I may, would you explain what err is? Sounds really intresting. Can't seem to find more about this on google.
It would mean that some beings, after attaining buddhahood, fall back into the error of not recognizing their fundamental state, buddhahood. Its a logical impossibility.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Malcolm
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:37 pm
ConfusedOne wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:38 am
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:22 am

some Buddhas err and return to the state of being sentient beings.
If I may, would you explain what err is? Sounds really intresting. Can't seem to find more about this on google.
It would mean that some beings, after attaining buddhahood, fall back into the error of not recognizing their fundamental state, buddhahood. Its a logical impossibility.
For lower yanas, yes, it seems impossible. But the Buddhahood they assert is reversible.
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

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Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:04 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:37 pm
ConfusedOne wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:38 am

If I may, would you explain what err is? Sounds really intresting. Can't seem to find more about this on google.
It would mean that some beings, after attaining buddhahood, fall back into the error of not recognizing their fundamental state, buddhahood. Its a logical impossibility.
For lower yanas, yes, it seems impossible. But the Buddhahood they assert is reversible.
I've encountered this teaching in Tiantai, also. They assert the buddhahood of lower teachings (doesn't follow the same yana model in Dzogchen) is provisional in nature and not authentic Buddhahood.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Malcolm
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:59 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:04 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:37 pm

It would mean that some beings, after attaining buddhahood, fall back into the error of not recognizing their fundamental state, buddhahood. Its a logical impossibility.
For lower yanas, yes, it seems impossible. But the Buddhahood they assert is reversible.
I've encountered this teaching in Tiantai, also. They assert the buddhahood of lower teachings (doesn't follow the same yana model in Dzogchen) is provisional in nature and not authentic Buddhahood.
It’s a symptom of an incomplete gnosis.
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:10 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:59 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:04 pm

For lower yanas, yes, it seems impossible. But the Buddhahood they assert is reversible.
I've encountered this teaching in Tiantai, also. They assert the buddhahood of lower teachings (doesn't follow the same yana model in Dzogchen) is provisional in nature and not authentic Buddhahood.
It’s a symptom of an incomplete gnosis.
Yes. The degree of incompleteness is commensurate with the relative insight of the particular yana. The thing that distinguishes the highest teaching from the penultimate teaching is whether fundamental nescience, the ignorance beyond the myriad dust like afflictions, is overcome.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Malcolm
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:25 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:10 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:59 pm

I've encountered this teaching in Tiantai, also. They assert the buddhahood of lower teachings (doesn't follow the same yana model in Dzogchen) is provisional in nature and not authentic Buddhahood.
It’s a symptom of an incomplete gnosis.
Yes. The degree of incompleteness is commensurate with the relative insight of the particular yana. The thing that distinguishes the highest teaching from the penultimate teaching is whether fundamental nescience, the ignorance beyond the myriad dust like afflictions, is overcome.
Buddhology is fun!
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Re: Does everything cease to exist if every senteint being attains parinirvana?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Nothing ceases that wasn’t truly here to begin with.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by SkyFox »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:37 pm
ConfusedOne wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:38 am
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:22 am

some Buddhas err and return to the state of being sentient beings.
If I may, would you explain what err is? Sounds really intresting. Can't seem to find more about this on google.
It would mean that some beings, after attaining buddhahood, fall back into the error of not recognizing their fundamental state, buddhahood. Its a logical impossibility.
Thank you for this wonderful explanation :anjali:

And I agree, Buddha, by all means, should be a perfect being. Can't imagine said being would error, unless said being purposely wanted to revert for whatever reason.
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Re: Does everything cease to exist if every senteint being attains parinirvana?

Post by Shinjin »

Why would a fully awakened buddha want to revert to ordinary sentient being? Ridiculous.
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Re: Does everything cease to exist if every senteint being attains parinirvana?

Post by weiyang7999 »

No, as stated in "The Mahaprajna Paramita Sutra Manjushri said(文殊师利所说摩诃般若波罗蜜经)", even if countless Buddhas teach and transform countless sentient beings into Nirvana, the world of sentient beings will neither decrease nor increase. This is because the fixed image of sentient beings cannot be obtained.
Last edited by weiyang7999 on Mon Feb 21, 2022 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Does everything cease to exist if every senteint being attains parinirvana?

Post by Shinjin »

weiyang7999 wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 3:42 pm No, as stated in "The Mahaprajna Paramita Sutra Manjushri said(文殊师利所说摩诃般若波罗蜜经)", even if countless Buddhas teach and transform countless sentient beings into Nirvana, the world of sentient beings will neither decrease nor increase. This is because the fixed image of sentient beings cannot be obtained.
Are you able to provide a quote from the text?
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Re: Does everything cease to exist if every senteint being attains parinirvana?

Post by weiyang7999 »

Shinjin wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 4:28 pm
weiyang7999 wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 3:42 pm No, as stated in "The Mahaprajna Paramita Sutra Manjushri said(文殊师利所说摩诃般若波罗蜜经)", even if countless Buddhas teach and transform countless sentient beings into Nirvana, the world of sentient beings will neither decrease nor increase. This is because the fixed image of sentient beings cannot be obtained.
Are you able to provide a quote from the text?
I can provide the Chinese version of the scriptures for this part, as for the English version, I don't know if this scripture has been translated into English.

The Chinese text of this verse is as follows:
假使一佛住世,若一劫若过一劫,如此一佛世界,复有无量无边恒河沙诸佛,如是一一佛,若一劫若过一劫,昼夜说法心无暂息,各各度于无量恒河沙众生皆入涅槃,而众生界亦不增不减,乃至十方诸佛世界亦复如是,一一诸佛说法教化,各度无量恒河沙众生皆入涅槃,于众生界亦不增不减。何以故?众生定相不可得故,是故众生界不增不减。
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Re: Does everything cease to exist if every senteint being attains parinirvana?

Post by Ayu »

weiyang7999 wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 4:50 pm
Shinjin wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 4:28 pm
weiyang7999 wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 3:42 pm No, as stated in "The Mahaprajna Paramita Sutra Manjushri said(文殊师利所说摩诃般若波罗蜜经)", even if countless Buddhas teach and transform countless sentient beings into Nirvana, the world of sentient beings will neither decrease nor increase. This is because the fixed image of sentient beings cannot be obtained.
Are you able to provide a quote from the text?
I can provide the Chinese version of the scriptures for this part, as for the English version, I don't know if this scripture has been translated into English.

The Chinese text of this verse is as follows:
假使一佛住世,若一劫若过一劫,如此一佛世界,复有无量无边恒河沙诸佛,如是一一佛,若一劫若过一劫,昼夜说法心无暂息,各各度于无量恒河沙众生皆入涅槃,而众生界亦不增不减,乃至十方诸佛世界亦复如是,一一诸佛说法教化,各度无量恒河沙众生皆入涅槃,于众生界亦不增不减。何以故?众生定相不可得故,是故众生界不增不减。
A translation site (https://www.translate.com/chinese_traditional-english) translates it like this:
If a Buddha lives in the world, if one disaster is like a disaster, then such a Buddha's world, there are immeasurable and boundless Ganges Sand Buddhas, such as one Buddha, if one disaster is a disaster, there is no temporary rest in the day and night, all sentient beings in the immeasurable Ganga Sand Have entered Nirvana, and the sentient beings in the immeasurable Ganga Sand World do not increase or decrease, and even the world of the Ten Buddhas is the same, and the Buddhas of all degrees are enlightened, and all the immeasurable Ganges Sand beings enter Nirvana, and the sentient beings do not increase or decrease.Why? The definite phase of sentient beings cannot be obtained, so the world of sentient beings does not increase or decrease.
Probably wrong grammar.
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Re: Does everything cease to exist if every senteint being attains parinirvana?

Post by SkyFox »

weiyang7999 wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 3:42 pm No, as stated in "The Mahaprajna Paramita Sutra Manjushri said(文殊师利所说摩诃般若波罗蜜经)", even if countless Buddhas teach and transform countless sentient beings into Nirvana, the world of sentient beings will neither decrease nor increase. This is because the fixed image of sentient beings cannot be obtained.
I know Buddhism, like most religions, is full of esoteric teachings that are rooted in faith, but I can't even begin to comprehend what that bolded part means.
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Re: Does everything cease to exist if every senteint being attains parinirvana?

Post by weiyang7999 »

ConfusedOne wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 5:25 pm
weiyang7999 wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 3:42 pm No, as stated in "The Mahaprajna Paramita Sutra Manjushri said(文殊师利所说摩诃般若波罗蜜经)", even if countless Buddhas teach and transform countless sentient beings into Nirvana, the world of sentient beings will neither decrease nor increase. This is because the fixed image of sentient beings cannot be obtained.
I know Buddhism, like most religions, is full of esoteric teachings that are rooted in faith, but I can't even begin to comprehend what that bolded part means.
I also don't know the specific meaning of this word. For this reason, I read another translation of this sutra, which is the translation in the "Great Prajna Paramita Sutra" translated by Master Xuanzang. (大般若波罗蜜多经-曼殊室利分).

In this translation, Master Xuanzang's translation of this is: because the nature of each sentient being leaves, because there are no marginal reasons. So it cannot be increased or decreased.

Unfortunately, my English is not good enough, so I can only translate it to you like this. Hope it helps your understanding.
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Re: Does everything cease to exist if every senteint being attains parinirvana?

Post by Aryjna »

I think this refers to ultimately there being no difference between sentient beings and buddhas. It probably doesn't refer to whether there will conventionally exist sentient beings at some point in the future.
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