After enlightenment, can a Buddha return/manifest/emanate to samsara?

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Nalanda
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After enlightenment, can a Buddha return/manifest/emanate to samsara?

Post by Nalanda »

(Side question: What is manifestation? What is emanation? What's the difference?)

Okay, so after enlightenment, and after parinirvana, can a Buddha "return" to samsara in the form of another Buddha, or bodhisattva, or manifestation or emanation?

If the answer is "yes", can they return in various forms, i.e. Buddha, bodhisattva, a regular sentient being, etc?

If the answer is "no", then is the whole notion of bodhisattva delaying enlightenment a valid view (not a misconception) because reaching enlightenment does mean the bodhisattva is no longer coming back to samsara?
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Re: After enlightenment, can a Buddha return/manifest/emanate to samsara?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

The phrase “enlightenment for the sake of all sentient beings” does not mean that a Buddha must be physically present. However it is helpful in many ways if he is.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: After enlightenment, can a Buddha return/manifest/emanate to samsara?

Post by Zhen Li »

All of these questions are answered in the Tathāgataguhya Sūtra.

You have to do some leg work to fully understand these things, but I can give you some quick responses which may lead you in the right direction.
Nalanda wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:05 am(Side question: What is manifestation? What is emanation? What's the difference?)
They are just two different translations for the same thing. Nirmāṇa. 化 in Chinese.

Nirmāṇa comes from the root nir-√mā, which means to build to make, mā by √itself can simply mean to measure or set up. So, it is a form that is made/manifested in order to edify beings. It is like a show. The Chinese character means to transform or make as well. Because manifestation comes to also mean specifically appearing in order to teach, the character also takes on the meaning of to teach.
Nalanda wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:05 amOkay, so after enlightenment, and after parinirvana, can a Buddha "return" to samsara in the form of another Buddha, or bodhisattva, or manifestation or emanation?
A Buddha neither truly goes nor comes. You asked about Prajñāpāramitā before. Study Prajñāpāramitā first and then revisit this question.

So, there is no "disappearance" of the Buddha. Nirvāṇa is a designation. Both buddhas and bodhisattvas take on any form necessary to edify beings. Awakening and parinirvāṇa are not obstacles or barriers like the walls around your house.
Nalanda wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:05 am If the answer is "yes", can they return in various forms, i.e. Buddha, bodhisattva, a regular sentient being, etc?
Yes. Every form. But they do not give rise to any intention to take this or that form, it is the karmic inclinations of your own mind that waft them like the wind wafting a chime and making a sound. The Buddha's are free from all calculation and artifice. That's why they take on the form that is best suited to your mind.
Nalanda wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:05 amIf the answer is "no", then is the whole notion of bodhisattva delaying enlightenment a valid view (not a misconception) because reaching enlightenment does mean the bodhisattva is no longer coming back to samsara?
Delaying Buddhahood is not part of the bodhisattva path.

Bodhisattvas who manifest as delaying Buddhahood (shepherd-like bodhisattva) are usually doing so because they are themselves manifestations of buddhas. An example would be Mañjuśrī, who already attained Buddhahood and later manifested as a bodhisattva according to the Śuraṅgamasāmadhi. Another more well-known example of delay is Kṣitigarbha, who is a manifestation of Vairocana according to the Niṣpannayogāvalī.

So, it really does not make sense to make this vow unless it is as a manifestation oneself after one attains full Buddhahood.
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Re: After enlightenment, can a Buddha return/manifest/emanate to samsara?

Post by Queequeg »

Zhen Li wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:26 pm All of these questions are answered in the Tathāgataguhya Sūtra.
This is your work and you offer it for free to the world?!

:applause:
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
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Caoimhghín
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Re: After enlightenment, can a Buddha return/manifest/emanate to samsara?

Post by Caoimhghín »

Zhen Li wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:26 pmDelaying Buddhahood is not part of the bodhisattva path.
This is something that Mahāyānikas often end up explaining exhaustively to their critics. It is Parinirvāṇa that is delayed, not Bodhi.
Zhen Li wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:26 pmBodhisattvas who manifest as delaying Buddhahood (shepherd-like bodhisattva) are usually doing so because they are themselves manifestations of buddhas. An example would be Mañjuśrī, who already attained Buddhahood and later manifested as a bodhisattva according to the Śuraṅgamasāmadhi. Another more well-known example of delay is Kṣitigarbha, who is a manifestation of Vairocana according to the Niṣpannayogāvalī.

So, it really does not make sense to make this vow unless it is as a manifestation oneself after one attains full Buddhahood.
Very interesting point/idea. There is also minority literature, not particularly mainstream AFAIK, that depicts Āryāvalokiteśvara as an emanation of a Saṃbuddha named Saddharmapradīpa.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
Malcolm
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Re: After enlightenment, can a Buddha return/manifest/emanate to samsara?

Post by Malcolm »

Caoimhghín wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:03 pm
Zhen Li wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:26 pmDelaying Buddhahood is not part of the bodhisattva path.
This is something that Mahāyānikas often end up explaining exhaustively to their critics. It is Parinirvāṇa that is delayed, not Bodhi.
Even then, Mahāyāna nonabiding nirvana can encompass the display of parnirvana.
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Caoimhghín
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Re: After enlightenment, can a Buddha return/manifest/emanate to samsara?

Post by Caoimhghín »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:09 pm
Caoimhghín wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:03 pm
Zhen Li wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:26 pmDelaying Buddhahood is not part of the bodhisattva path.
This is something that Mahāyānikas often end up explaining exhaustively to their critics. It is Parinirvāṇa that is delayed, not Bodhi.
Even then, Mahāyāna nonabiding nirvana can encompass the display of parnirvana.
Yes, but the skandha-parinirvāṇa does not actually occur at the apparent end of life of an Āryabodhisattva. They aren't Śrāvakabuddhas. The display is just a display. Kleśa-parinirvāṇa occurs arguably far before the stage at which one is called an "Ārya" bodhisattva. The bodhisattvas do not indefinitely put-off kleśa-parinirvāṇa, surely, even though one might appear as such to guide defiled beings as one of them.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
Malcolm
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Re: After enlightenment, can a Buddha return/manifest/emanate to samsara?

Post by Malcolm »

Caoimhghín wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:14 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:09 pm
Caoimhghín wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:03 pm This is something that Mahāyānikas often end up explaining exhaustively to their critics. It is Parinirvāṇa that is delayed, not Bodhi.
Even then, Mahāyāna nonabiding nirvana can encompass the display of parnirvana.
Yes, but the skandha-parinirvāṇa does not actually occur at the apparent end of life of an Āryabodhisattva. They aren't Śrāvakabuddhas. The display is just a display. Kleśa-parinirvāṇa occurs arguably far before the stage at which one is called an "Ārya" bodhisattva. The bodhisattvas do not indefinitely put-off kleśa-parinirvāṇa, surely, even though one might appear as such to guide defiled beings as one of them.
There is no such thing as a śrāvakabuddha.
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anjali
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Re: After enlightenment, can a Buddha return/manifest/emanate to samsara?

Post by anjali »

Nice response. Two thoughts came to mind while reading.
Zhen Li wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:26 pm A Buddha neither truly goes nor comes.
This brings to mind the classic zen story:

Just before Ninakawa passed away the Zen master Ikkyu visited him. “Shall I lead you on?” Ikkyu asked.
Ninakawa replied: “I came here alone and I go alone. What help could you be to me?”
Ikkyu answered: “If you think you really come and go, that is your delusion. Let me show you the path on which there is no coming and going.”
With his words, Ikkyu had revealed the path so clearly that Ninakawa smiled and passed away.

Zhen Li wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:26 pm Yes. Every form.
And this brings to mind a quote from Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche,

"Compassion is the effortless radiance of emptiness, free of concepts and beyond description. That is how a buddha’s activity for beings can be limitless. If you understand this, you will know that even when a cool breeze blows upon a sick person burning with fever, that itself is the blessings and compassion of the buddhas."
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Re: After enlightenment, can a Buddha return/manifest/emanate to samsara?

Post by Caoimhghín »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:31 pm
Caoimhghín wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:14 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:09 pm

Even then, Mahāyāna nonabiding nirvana can encompass the display of parnirvana.
Yes, but the skandha-parinirvāṇa does not actually occur at the apparent end of life of an Āryabodhisattva. They aren't Śrāvakabuddhas. The display is just a display. Kleśa-parinirvāṇa occurs arguably far before the stage at which one is called an "Ārya" bodhisattva. The bodhisattvas do not indefinitely put-off kleśa-parinirvāṇa, surely, even though one might appear as such to guide defiled beings as one of them.
There is no such thing as a śrāvakabuddha.
This is incorrect. I do not expect you to be familiar with terminologies for "Arhats" from foreign sects that you've not studied though. Likely there is no such term in your tradition, so you've mistakenly stated that such a term does not exist.
Te ca pana sāvakabuddhā paccekabuddhā sammāsambuddhāti tividhā, tesu idha sāvakabuddhā adhippetā.
(Mahāṭṭhakathā, Book 26, outlining the three vehicles)
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
Malcolm
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Re: After enlightenment, can a Buddha return/manifest/emanate to samsara?

Post by Malcolm »

Caoimhghín wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:59 pm This is incorrect. I do not expect you to be familiar with terminologies for "Arhats" from foreign sects that you've not studied though. Likely there is no such term in your tradition, so you've mistakenly stated that such a term does not exist.
Oh I am familiar enough with the term as used in Hinayāna schools. But there isn't any such thing.
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Re: After enlightenment, can a Buddha return/manifest/emanate to samsara?

Post by Nalanda »

To be fair, some conflate Arhats with the Buddha, but objectively, Arhats are no Buddha. I don't think there's any dispute on that.

https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?t=677
Last edited by Nalanda on Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
IF YOU PRACTICE WITH A STRONG BELIEF IN WHAT
YOU ARE DOING, THEN THERE IS NO LIMIT TO WHAT
YOU CAN ACCOMPLISH WITH YOUR PRACTICE.

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Re: After enlightenment, can a Buddha return/manifest/emanate to samsara?

Post by Caoimhghín »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:21 pm
Caoimhghín wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:59 pm This is incorrect. I do not expect you to be familiar with terminologies for "Arhats" from foreign sects that you've not studied though. Likely there is no such term in your tradition, so you've mistakenly stated that such a term does not exist.
Oh I am familiar enough with the term as used in Hinayāna schools. But there isn't any such thing.
Out of curiosity, do you interpret the fourth of the eight downfalls for ordinary persons (referencing the 18 root downfalls for those who do not know) as something like "denying the rousing of the Arhats?" I thought that I recalled you and Venerable Hùifēng having a disagreement in the past over whether those teachings that say that the Arhats are later roused are definitive or in some way provisional, but I can't find it here https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=102&t=16084 so I'm likely remembering a different occasion and conflating them. Ven Hùifēng was of the opinion that the Arhats are not roused. Depending on your opinion regarding this, that fourth downfall means that Arhats must necessarily be believed to be an inferior grade of "Buddha," or must necessarily be believed to be roused later, as I see things.
Nalanda wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:45 pm To be fair, some conflate Arhats with the Buddha, but objectively, Arhats are no Buddha. I don't think there's any dispute on that.
There's something of a significant dispute, as I see things. The aforementioned Downfall 4 is "To maintain that following the Hinayana path does not eradicate defilements or that the shravakas do not have an authentic path to liberation." I've seen other wordings of it too, but that's the translation I got when googling it just now for the sake of a copy/paste.
Last edited by Caoimhghín on Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
Nalanda
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Re: After enlightenment, can a Buddha return/manifest/emanate to samsara?

Post by Nalanda »

As you can see from here, the term isn't anything but of commentarial value.

https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?t=677
IF YOU PRACTICE WITH A STRONG BELIEF IN WHAT
YOU ARE DOING, THEN THERE IS NO LIMIT TO WHAT
YOU CAN ACCOMPLISH WITH YOUR PRACTICE.

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Caoimhghín
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Re: After enlightenment, can a Buddha return/manifest/emanate to samsara?

Post by Caoimhghín »

Nalanda wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:50 pm As you can see from here, the term isn't anything but of commentarial value.

https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?t=677
I don't see this comment as particularly relevant. The commentaries contain much of the Dharma, and the speech of the Buddhas are not limited to a small selection of magical Dharma-words. They use any words in any combinations to preach the Dharma. Their words might appear in sutras, or they might appear in treatises of the wise, or from the mouths of ordinary persons.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
Malcolm
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Re: After enlightenment, can a Buddha return/manifest/emanate to samsara?

Post by Malcolm »

Caoimhghín wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:48 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:21 pm
Caoimhghín wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:59 pm This is incorrect. I do not expect you to be familiar with terminologies for "Arhats" from foreign sects that you've not studied though. Likely there is no such term in your tradition, so you've mistakenly stated that such a term does not exist.
Oh I am familiar enough with the term as used in Hinayāna schools. But there isn't any such thing.
Out of curiosity, do you interpret the fourth of the eight downfalls for ordinary persons (referencing the 18 root downfalls for those who do not know) as something like "denying the rousing of the Arhats?"
The elimination of afflictions is a necessary, but not a sufficient, condition for buddhahood. Also seventh stage bodhisattvas eradicate the afflictive obscuration entirely, but they do not then attain buddhahood.

As for arhats being roused from a samadhi of cessation, this is standard Mahāyāna doxology.
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Re: After enlightenment, can a Buddha return/manifest/emanate to samsara?

Post by Caoimhghín »

Not necessarily. Plenty of Buddhists don't believe in it and agree with Ven Hùifēng and believe that "Arhat = game over." For these, it is necessary that Arhats be a variety of Buddha, much like Aryabodhisattvas are a variety of Buddha and Pratyekabuddhas are a variety of Buddha. If Arhats are not a variety of Buddha, then the Śrāvakas do not have an authentic path to liberation.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
Malcolm
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Re: After enlightenment, can a Buddha return/manifest/emanate to samsara?

Post by Malcolm »

Caoimhghín wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:05 pm Not necessarily. Plenty of Buddhists don't believe in it and agree with Ven Hùifēng and believe that "Arhat = game over." For these, it is necessary that Arhats be a variety of Buddha, much like Aryabodhisattvas are a variety of Buddha and Pratyekabuddhas are a variety of Buddha.
This idea of three gotras is provisional.
If Arhats are not a variety of Buddha, then the Śrāvakas do not have an authentic path to liberation.
Liberation comes from having eliminated the afflictive obscuration. Vasubandhu points out, however, that arhats and pratyekabuddhas possess a nonafflictive ignorance. And it is clearly stated in Mahāyāna sutras, such as the Lanka, that arhats are roused from their samadhi of cessation and required to join the path again.
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Re: After enlightenment, can a Buddha return/manifest/emanate to samsara?

Post by Caoimhghín »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:33 pm
Caoimhghín wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:05 pm Not necessarily. Plenty of Buddhists don't believe in it and agree with Ven Hùifēng and believe that "Arhat = game over." For these, it is necessary that Arhats be a variety of Buddha, much like Aryabodhisattvas are a variety of Buddha and Pratyekabuddhas are a variety of Buddha.
This idea of three gotras is provisional.
To be fair, they say that the doctrine of the rousing is provisional.

I believe in the rousing myself, it's in the Lotus Sūtra and the Prajñā Treatise, but there are plenty that don't. Furthermore, we are talking about Buddhahood in two different ways with regards to two different things. I am familiar with imperfect degrees of Buddha, including "(Ārya)Bodhisattva" and "Pratyekabuddha."
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
Malcolm
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Re: After enlightenment, can a Buddha return/manifest/emanate to samsara?

Post by Malcolm »

Caoimhghín wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:47 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:33 pm
Caoimhghín wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:05 pm Not necessarily. Plenty of Buddhists don't believe in it and agree with Ven Hùifēng and believe that "Arhat = game over." For these, it is necessary that Arhats be a variety of Buddha, much like Aryabodhisattvas are a variety of Buddha and Pratyekabuddhas are a variety of Buddha.
This idea of three gotras is provisional.
To be fair, they say that the doctrine of the rousing is provisional.

I believe in the rousing myself, it's in the Lotus Sūtra and the Prajñā Treatise, but there are plenty that don't. Furthermore, we are talking about Buddhahood in two different ways with regards to two different things. I am familiar with imperfect degrees of Buddha, including "(Ārya)Bodhisattva" and "Pratyekabuddha."

Who are "they?" Some modern academicians?

There are all kinds of grades of bodhi, that is not at issue here. We can certainly consider tenth stage bodhisattvas a type of buddha, since the Abhisamayālaṃkāra deems it so, since their omniscience is very nearly that of a samyasaṃbuddha. But to claim that arhats and pratyekabuddhas cannot be roused from their samadhi a) defies scripture b) defies logic. In the first place, we have already agreed that there is scriptural evidence that arhats, etc. are roused. In the second place, asserting they cannot be roused means they are essentially icchantikas, that their continuums have ceased to exist, and so on. Moreover, such as assertion harms the bodhisattva path, because the consequence of this assertion is that no one can attain samyaksambuddhahood, not even the buddha, since as soon as their afflictions are completely eradicated, a bodhisattva can no longer proceed on the bodhisattva path. So I stand by my initial claim. There is no such thing as a śrāvakabuddha. They may not like the idea since an arhat, once roused from cessation, has to begin at the Mahāyāna path of accumulation, rendering them effectively ordinary sentient beings.
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