Will all eventually become Buddhas?

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truthb
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Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by truthb »

To the Buddha Nature within you, I bow,

Hello all-

I am wondering about Mahayana/Vajrayana Teachers, Schools or Sutras which talk about the inevitable "salvation" of all from Samsara?

I would kindly ask people to read the above a few times before responding... I asked it on another forum and got all sorts of side responses, that don't address this specific question, thank you.

Namu Amida Butsu
Nam Myohorenge Kyo
Om Mani Padme Hum
Last edited by truthb on Tue Jan 25, 2022 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Aemilius
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by Aemilius »

truthb wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 12:41 pm To the Buddha Nature within you, I bow,

Hello all-

I am wondering about Mahayana/Vajrayana Teachers, Schools or Sutras which talk about the inevitable "salvation" of all from Samsara?

I know one of the Pure Land Sutras says ALL will eventually enter Amida's Pureland, wondering about other references to this idea of "Inevitable Universal Salvation."
It is probably a mistake, I have never heard of such sutra. "All" would include all sentient beings, all animals, insects, centipedes, millipedes, fish, crustaceans, serpents, alligators, crocodiles, ghosts, all supernatural beings, deities, etc...
Future time is infinite. So who can tell ? All beings possess buddha-nature, it is said.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
truthb
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by truthb »

Aemilius wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 12:56 pm
truthb wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 12:41 pm To the Buddha Nature within you, I bow,

Hello all-

I am wondering about Mahayana/Vajrayana Teachers, Schools or Sutras which talk about the inevitable "salvation" of all from Samsara?

I know one of the Pure Land Sutras says ALL will eventually enter Amida's Pureland, wondering about other references to this idea of "Inevitable Universal Salvation."
It is probably a mistake, I have never heard of such sutra. "All" would include all sentient beings, all animals, insects, centipedes, millipedes, fish, crustaceans, serpents, alligators, crocodiles, ghosts, all supernatural beings, deities, etc...
Future time is infinite. So who can tell ? All beings possess buddha-nature, it is said.
Thanks for your feedback- I have removed the "I know one of the Pure Land Sutras says ALL will eventually enter Amida's Pureland, wondering about other references to this idea of "Inevitable Universal Salvation." from what I posted since I don't have the reffrence handy and it will take the thread off topic.

Also in reflection, I think that was Shinran's interpretation of the Sutra.... will dig more.
Based on The Lotus Sutra, it is my conviction that each person who is reading this will INEVITABLY become a Fully Realized Buddha.
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Zhen Li
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by Zhen Li »

Well, I am familiar with this statement from various Mahāyāna sūtras, in particular, it is in the Nirvāṇa Sūtra. It would take some digging to find all other statements of this fact. Since you mention Shinran, and since it's easier just to search all his quotes, I'll just cite the times he refers to the idea from the Nirvāṇa Sūtra. These aren't his "interpretation," he is just quoting the sūtras:
KGSS II: 87 wrote: The Nirvāṇa Sūtra states:
Good people, the term “ultimate” has two meanings; first, the ultimate is the process of consummation; second, the ultimate that has been consummated. The first is the ultimate in the realm of the mundane, the second is the ultimate in the realm of the supramundane. The ultimate that has been consummated is the One Vehicle that all sentient beings will realize. The One Vehicle is called Buddha-nature. For this reason, I teach that all sentient beings have Buddha-nature. All sentient beings, without exception, posses the One Vehicle. Because it is covered over by their ignorance, they are unable to see it.
KGSS III: 31 wrote: The Nirvāṇa Sūtra states:
Good sons! Great love and great compassion are called Buddha-nature. Why? Because great love and great compassion always accompany the bodhisattva, just as shadows accompany things. All sentient beings will without fail ultimately realize great love and great compassion. Therefore it is taught, “All sentient beings are possessed of Buddha-nature.” Great love and great compassion are Buddha-nature. Buddha-nature is Tathagata.
This passage continues to show that all sentient beings will without fail ultimately also realize great equanimity, great faith, and the state of regarding all beings as one's only child.
KGSS V: 20 wrote: The Nirvāṇa Sūtra states:
It is like the case of the twelve divisions of scriptures that I have taught. Some are teachings in accord with my own intent; some are teachings in accord with the listeners’ intent; some are teachings in accord with both my own intent and the intent of the listeners… Good sons, I have taught that bodhisattvas of the tenth stage see a little of Buddha-nature; this is called a teaching in accord with the listeners intent. Why do I say “see a little”? Bodhisattvas of the tenth stage have attained such samadhis as the samadhi of heroic advance and also mastery of the three thousand dharma-gates. Hence, they themselves clearly know that they will indeed attain highest, perfect enlightenment, but they do not see that all sentient beings will definitely attain highest, perfect enlightenment. Therefore, I teach that bodhisattvas of the tenth stage see a little of Buddha-nature.
The previous quote is suggesting that while a Buddha can see that all beings will attain highest awakening (since they all have Buddha-nature), a bodhisattva on the tenth stage only sees a little of Buddha-nature, so they do not yet know that all will certainly attain awakening.

The statement that the Buddha saves "all beings" is one of the most common statements in the sūtras, such as the Lotus Sūtra, though it is not always as explicit as in the Nirvāṇa Sūtra.
Malcolm
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by Malcolm »

truthb wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 12:41 pm I am wondering about Mahayana/Vajrayana Teachers, Schools or Sutras which talk about the inevitable "salvation" of all from Samsara?
You have to distinguish between two types of gotra, or inclination for awakening: natural and activated.

Only those sentient beings who have activated their inclination for awakening will attain buddhahood. There is no guarantee that all sentient beings will awaken to full buddhahood, since there is no guarantee that all sentient beings will eventually take birth as human beings with eight freedoms and ten endowments and meet the Dharma. And meeting the Dharma is the condition for attaining Buddhahood. And, the Buddha did say:

Misdeeds cannot be washed away with water.
Suffering cannot be removed by hand.
I cannot give liberation to you,
but I can demonstrate the path.


Meeting the path of the Dharma always requires some cause, some gathering of merit. No one can meet the Dharma and practice the path without first attaining the precious human birth. Various examples are taught by the Buddha to illustrate the rarity of the fully qualified human birth, one of the most famous of which is that a precious human birth is as rare as a blind sea turtle who rises to the surface of the ocean every one hundred years, and just happens to put his head through a golden yoke that has been floating on the surface of the ocean.

So, no, there is no valid Mahāyāna tradition that teaches it is inevitable that all sentient beings will attain buddhahood. It is a realistic probability that some sentient beings, despite having the potential to attain buddhahood, will never gather the causes and conditions for meeting the Dharma, much less even be reborn as a human being who can attain buddhahood.
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by Shinjin »

It's impossible since the number of sentient beings is infinite.
Malcolm
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by Malcolm »

Shinjin wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 4:49 pm It's impossible since the number of sentient beings is infinite.
Yes, but it is an infinity that has a limit. Meaning, no new sentient beings come into being. So it could be possible, but there are other factors that make it improbable.
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by Shinjin »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 4:50 pm
Shinjin wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 4:49 pm It's impossible since the number of sentient beings is infinite.
Yes, but it is an infinity that has a limit. Meaning, no new sentient beings come into being. So it could be possible, but there are other factors that make it improbable.
In other words the number is actually finite but there's a high improbability of it ever happening because of icchantikas.
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by Malcolm »

Shinjin wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:16 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 4:50 pm
Shinjin wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 4:49 pm It's impossible since the number of sentient beings is infinite.
Yes, but it is an infinity that has a limit. Meaning, no new sentient beings come into being. So it could be possible, but there are other factors that make it improbable.
In other words the number is actually finite but there's a high improbability of it ever happening because of icchantikas.

Well, we Madhyamakas don't actually admit there is such a thing as real icchantikas, but allow that there are de facto "icchanitikas"
in so far as there are some sentient beings who may never have the causes and conditions to meet the Dharma.
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Aemilius
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by Aemilius »

Because the past is infinite with out beginning, a really unimaginably infinite time has passed and here we are with millions and millions of different species of tiny insects and larger animals on this planet alone. In one gram of healthy soil in the forest there are about 400 million bacteria individuals.
Why have the Buddhas of the infinite past not already emptied samsara ten times over?
In the Short Perfection of Wisdom sutras Manjushri says that even if he everyday taught Dharma to numberless beings who all attained enlightenment, there would be no decrease in the number of sentient beings.

"If, Rev. Saradvatiputra, to put an imaginary case, in each single Buddhafield there were Buddhas and Lords countless as the sands of the Ganges, and each single Tathagata were to abide for aeons countless as the sands of the Ganges demonstrating Dharma night and day, and if each single Tathagata by each single demonstration of Dharma were to discipline as many beings as have been disciplined by each demonstration of Dharma on the part of the Buddhas ad Lords countless as the sands of the Ganges, -even if that were done one could not conceive of a depletion of of the world of beings or its repletion. And why ? Because of the isolatedness of beings, because of their nonbeingness."

Perfection of Wisdom in 700 Lines, tr Edward Conze
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Zhen Li
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by Zhen Li »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 4:41 pm So, no, there is no valid Mahāyāna tradition that teaches it is inevitable that all sentient beings will attain buddhahood.
Jōdo Shinshū.

Also, you said:
Malcolm wrote: Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:22 pm
Anonymous X wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
In many places.
Can you give us a quote?

The Buddha predicts all sentient beings for Buddhahood in the Lotus Sūtra, among other places.
Malcolm wrote: Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:29 pm
Vasana wrote:If we are to take the bodhisattva ideal literally, then why wouldn't you expect all beings to attain Buddhahood? If compassion is a natural quality of realization and time is not a restricting factor, then why would some beings be excluded from that?

I was reading Dzogchen Ponlop's commentary on the Aspiration of Samantabhadra earlier today. After the root text it mentions it's from the 9th chapter of The Tantra of the Great perfection which shows the penetrating wisdom of Samantabhadra. "Which presents the powerful aspiration which makes it impossible for all beings not to attain Buddhahood"

It is from the 19th chapter of that text, actually.
So, Dzogchen also teaches that it is inevitable that all beings will attain Buddhahood.

Vasana makes a good point further down:
Vasana wrote: Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:37 pm
Losal Samten wrote:
Vasana wrote:If we are to take the bodhisattva ideal literally, then why wouldn't you expect all beings to attain Buddhahood? If compassion is a natural quality of realization and time is not a restricting factor, then why would some beings be excluded from that?
Presumably because just as time is infinite, so are sentient beings, so mathematically speaking there's always going to be someone that's out of reach. (IIRC that was one Yogacarin argument for the existence of icchantikas?)

Some sutras state that the sattvadhatu neither increases nor decreases (anunatvaapurnatva), is this to be only understood in the non-conceptual ultimate sense, or relatively too, since whether infinity +1, or infinity -1, it still equals infinity?

https://www.academia.edu/30408695/The_S ... %9Br%C4%AB
Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche from 'As it is Vol 1'.

'For sentient beings in general, there is no end to samsara. But for each sentient being individually, there is an end. Because when we recognize mind essence and become stable in that, the very root of further samsaric existence has been exhausted. For the individual sentient being, samsara does end. But for sentient beings as a whole, there is no end to samsara.'
The issue with the kind of logic that people are employing when they deny this is that they are using calculative thinking which only applies on the side of saṃsāra. So, the answer to the question is both no and yes, but ultimately, yes.
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by Malcolm »

Zhen Li wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:37 am So, Dzogchen also teaches that it is inevitable that all beings will attain Buddhahood.
It’s interpretable and can’t be taken at face value, since Dzogchen texts also state some Buddhas err and return to the state of being sentient beings.
Last edited by Malcolm on Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by Malcolm »

Zhen Li wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:37 am
Malcolm wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 4:41 pm So, no, there is no valid Mahāyāna tradition that teaches it is inevitable that all sentient beings will attain buddhahood.
Jōdo Shinshū.
It’s not a claim you can validate.
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Zhen Li
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by Zhen Li »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:26 am
Zhen Li wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:37 am
Malcolm wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 4:41 pm So, no, there is no valid Mahāyāna tradition that teaches it is inevitable that all sentient beings will attain buddhahood.
Jōdo Shinshū.
It’s not a claim you can validate.
I validated it before your first comment in this thread.
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:22 am
Zhen Li wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:37 am So, Dzogchen also teaches that it is inevitable that all beings will attain Buddhahood.
It’s interpretable and can’t be taken at face value, since Dzogchen texts also state some Buddhas err and return to the state of being sentient beings.
This is also in regular Mahāyāna sūtras. Saṃsāra and Nirvāṇa are the same. Multiple things can be true at the same time, that's why buddhas have to manifest—or more precisely, why our minds project the appearances of buddhas.
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by Zhen Li »

Samaya in "Great Perfection" Taught by: Cortland Dahl & Third Dzogchen Rinpoche & Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche wrote:The temporary benefit of maintaining the samaya of enlightened mind is that your mental emanations will tame beings. The concentration born in your own mind will naturally bring about a state of meditation in the minds of other beings. Wherever you happen to be, concentration will arise and the sentient beings in the area will be reborn in the Realm of Bliss. Ultimately, all sentient beings will be established in buddhahood and, inseparable from the vajra mind, they will transcend suffering.
Jōdo Shinshū and Dzogchen are pretty much in agreement on most things.
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by Ayu »

Some posts went to another topic (see link), because the OP explicitly asked to stay on only the topic of their question.https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 64#p615564
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by muni »

May all beings have happiness and the cause of happiness.
May they be free of suffering and the cause of suffering.
May they never be disassociated from the supreme happiness which is without suffering.
May they remain in the boundless equanimity, free from both attachment to close ones and rejection of others.


Beings who will remain suffering? :( How amazing then is said, to practice for all-inclusive.

Buddha is not 'a one' opposing other.
It is said that the difference between buddhas and sentient beings is like the difference between the narrowness and the openness of space. Sentient beings are like the space held within a tightly closed fist, while buddhas are fully open, all-encompassing. Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche.
Signed, fly.
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by Aemilius »

From this Phylogenetic tree of life we can see that most species on this planet are non-animals, i.e. bacteria, archaea and microbes. In the branch of animals most species are insects. In the branch of non-insect-animals there is the branch of mammals. In mammals there is the branch of primates, to which humans belong. Among the 7 300 000 000 humans presently living, there is a minority religion called Buddhism. In Buddhism some adherents are now wondering if all beings will one day attain buddhahood?

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svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Zhen Li
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by Zhen Li »

Aemilius, you have no idea how many buddhas or bodhisattvas there are.

You cannot compare a finitude to an infininitude. They're simply not compatible. You can't use calculative logic to understand awakening, it fails every time.
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by Astus »

In the Saccasaṁyutta there are a series of suttas (SN 56.61-131) on the rarity of the precious human birth, like how few are born as humans (SN 56.61; see also the blind turtle simile: SN 56.47-48), not in a borderland (SN 56.62), and with wisdom (SN 56.63), and among those passing away as humans many are reborn in the lower realms and few in the heavens (SN 56.102-107). On the other hand, attaining insight is supremely difficult (SN 56.45) but without it there is no liberation (SN 56.44). At the same time, speculating about various matters of the world is not beneficial for the path, rather one should get busy with understanding the Dharma (SN 56.41).

The Buddha was asked (AN 10.95): 'when Master Gotama teaches in this way, is the whole world saved, or half, or a third?'
And Ananda explained: 'it’s not the Realized One’s concern whether the whole world is saved by this, or half, or a third. But the Realized One knows that whoever is saved from the world—whether in the past, the future, or the present—all have given up the five hindrances, corruptions of the heart that weaken wisdom. They have firmly established their mind in the four kinds of mindfulness meditation. And they have truly developed the seven awakening factors. That’s how they’re saved from the world, in the past, future, or present.'
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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