Will all eventually become Buddhas?

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Astus
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by Astus »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 3:54 pmSome people conceive of tathagatagarbha as a kind of uncompounded agent that propels one inevitably to buddhahood.
Even so, it is not in and of itself the cause of liberation, hence cannot guarantee it either.

'The causes of freedom from these two veils are the two jnanas, considered as being the non-conceptual jnana and the ensuing jnana.'
(Uttaratantrasastra 5.174, tr Holmes)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by Queequeg »

Astus wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 3:37 pm
Zhen Li wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 2:56 pmThe idea that all beings will eventually become Buddhas is a Mahāyāna teaching not covered by the Śrāvakayāna texts.
But why would all eventually become a buddha? The reasoning that "if it can happen, it will happen" does not stand. That all beings have buddha-nature is not a sufficient condition either.
I think the catalyst you are looking for are the hosts of buddhas and bodhisattvas that actively endeavor to respond to the needs and capacities of all living beings. Its those vows that turn the balance toward buddhahood.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by Malcolm »

Astus wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 4:29 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 3:54 pmSome people conceive of tathagatagarbha as a kind of uncompounded agent that propels one inevitably to buddhahood.
Even so, it is not in and of itself the cause of liberation, hence cannot guarantee it either.

'The causes of freedom from these two veils are the two jnanas, considered as being the non-conceptual jnana and the ensuing jnana.'
(Uttaratantrasastra 5.174, tr Holmes)
I didn't say they were right.
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

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Queequeg wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 5:55 pmI think the catalyst you are looking for are the hosts of buddhas and bodhisattvas that actively endeavor to respond to the needs and capacities of all living beings. Its those vows that turn the balance toward buddhahood.
Even just hearing about the Dharma depends on each being's karma, not simply on the effort of others. To the same extent one could mention the hosts of maras and the basic inclinations of beings (MN 64). Also, more apparent than the activities of buddhas and bodhisattvas are the divine messengers (MN 130) of birth, old age, sickness, punishment, and death. But who listens? Therefore 'the sentient beings who die as humans and are reborn as humans are few, while those who die as humans and are reborn in hell are many' (SN 56.102).
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by Astus »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:01 pmI didn't say they were right.
That's clear. ;)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

My teacher said that since, when all obscurations are removed, buddhahood is the mind’s original state, that not only do all beings have the potential to some day attain realization, but that eventually (many kalpas in the future) they will.

But it’s like saying that eventually all the stars in the universe will eventually burn out. Yeah, if there is no cause for new stars to occur, that will happen. It’s so inconceivably far away, it’s moot.
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

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PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 12:05 am My teacher said that since, when all obscurations are removed, buddhahood is the mind’s original state, that not only do all beings have the potential to some day attain realization, but that eventually (many kalpas in the future) they will.

But it’s like saying that eventually all the stars in the universe will eventually burn out. Yeah, if there is no cause for new stars to occur, that will happen. It’s so inconceivably far away, it’s moot.
Your teacher is correct. Tathāgatagarbha is the nature of all beings covered by obscurations. They will inevitably attain Buddhahood just as all stars will burn out.

All stars will burn out, it is not moot by virtue of remoteness of time. But the universe has no beginning or end, no increase or decrease. The same with beings. New stars replace them, but there is not thereby increase. Those stars are destroyed, there is not thereby decrease.

As for beings, as the Anūnatvāpūrṇatvanirdeśaparivarta says,
Silk trans., 173–4 wrote:The Tathāgata’s dharma-body, Śāriputra, is permanent because of its quality of immutability, because of its quality of inexhaustibility. The Tathāgata’s dharma-body, Śāriputra, is constant because it can permanently be taken as a refuge, because it is equal with the future limit (of saṁsāra). The Tathāgata’s dharma-body, Śāriputra, is tranquil because of its non-dual nature, because of its nature as free from discrimination. The Tathāgata’s dharma-body, Śāriputra, is unchangable because of its imperishable nature, because of its non-created nature.

When this very same dharma-body, Śāriputra, ensnared by limitless defilements greater in number than the sands of the Ganges, drifting on the waves of the world from beginningless ages, comes and goes through birth and death, then it is termed ‘Beings.’

When this very same dharma-body, Śāriputra, repels the anguish and suffering of birth and death in the world, banishes all desires, practices the ten perfections, collects the eighty-four thousand teachings, and cultivates the practices leading to bodhi, then it is termed ‘bodhisattva.’

Once again, Śāriputra, when this very same dharma-body is free from the covering of all the world’s defilements, beyond all suffering, and free from the stains of all defilements, it attains purity, it attains perfect purity, and dwells among the pure dharmas of the other shore. It reaches the stage of what is desired by all beings, it thoroughly penetrates all spheres (of knowledge), and there is none surpassing it. It is free of all hindrances, free of all obstacles, and it attains sovereign power over all things. [This then] is termed ‘Tathāgata, Arhat, Perfectly Awakened One.’
Dharma-body is obscured by defilements and then it is termed "beings," but there is no increase thereby. They attain "nirvāṇa," but there is no decrease thereby. There is no contradiction in this, as Malcolm said:
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:20 pm Dzogchen tantras teach that by the end of the eon, when all sentient beings have vanished from all the realms below the fourth form realm, all those realms perish (as in Abhidharma), and in the end all sentient beings attain buddhahood (not in Abhidharma).
This is a bit different from my understanding based on the idea of eternity entailing the inevitable coincidence of the appropriate conditions for buddhahood, but it is maybe another verification of the inevitability of that buddhahood on top of that which will occur within an aeon.

As for their "arising:"
Sentient beings newly arise at the end of each bardo of samsara and nirvana.

How do they arise? They arise when neutral awarenesss in the basis makes the error of not recognizing the display of the a basis as its own display. The imputing ignorance results in self and other, the ālaya forms, the twelve links start up, samsara and nirvana divide. Etc.

As I mentioned above, Dzoghchen texts do not distinguish whether this neutral awareness in the basis is multiple or singular.
In fact, the Nirvāṇa Sūtra suggests that "all beings have Buddha-Nature" equals "all beings will attain Buddhahood."
Yamamoto trans., 370 wrote:"O good man! “As all beings will definitely gain unsurpassed Enlightenment, I say that all beings possess the Buddha-Nature”. The beings actually do not possess the 32 signs of perfection and the 80 minor marks of excellence. So, in this sutra, I say in a gatha:
"What originally was is now no longer; What originally was not, now is;
There can be nothing such as "is" That obtains in the Three Times."
"O good man! There are three kinds of what exists. One is what comes about in the days to come, the second what actually exists there [now], and the third what was there in the past. “All beings will gain unsurpassed Enlightenment in the days to come.” [This is the Buddha- Nature.] All beings now possess all bonds of defilement. So they do not possess at present the 32 signs of perfection and the 80 minor marks of excellence. Thus, the beings who have cut off the bonds of defilement in the past see, in the present, the Buddha-Nature. So, I always say that beings all possess the Buddha-Nature.
Yamamoto trans., 460 wrote:"The Buddha-Nature is called vajropama-samadhi. By practising samadhi, one truly catches hold of the Buddhist doctrines. Because of this, we say: "The vajropama-samadhi is the Buddha-Nature." The Bodhisattva of the ten stages practises this samadhi and is not yet perfect. He sees the Buddha-Nature, but not clearly. As all beings will ultimately gain it, we say: "All beings have the Buddha-Nature."
"O good man! As all the doctrines [dharmas] referred to above will definitely be gained by all beings, we say: "All beings definitely have the Buddha-Nature."
Queequeg wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 5:55 pm
Astus wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 3:37 pm
Zhen Li wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 2:56 pmThe idea that all beings will eventually become Buddhas is a Mahāyāna teaching not covered by the Śrāvakayāna texts.
But why would all eventually become a buddha? The reasoning that "if it can happen, it will happen" does not stand. That all beings have buddha-nature is not a sufficient condition either.
I think the catalyst you are looking for are the hosts of buddhas and bodhisattvas that actively endeavor to respond to the needs and capacities of all living beings. Its those vows that turn the balance toward buddhahood.
The nature of Tathāgatagarbha is like a magnet, it draws everyone towards Buddhahood. Beings of course need to orient themselves towards it. The sunlight is always shining on the window, but the inhabitant has to take the initiative to open the curtain. If a bodhisattva thinks that some beings will and some beings will not attain Buddhahood, this is the same as acting on the belief that some have and others do not have Buddha-nature, thinking that some beings are beyond hope. But such thinking is impossible for a bodhisattva and a buddha because they know the true nature of all beings is fundamentally pure and that knowing the perfect skilful means to apply at the right time, they will be able to convince them to open the curtains and let in the Buddha-dharma's light.

I think you make a good point with regard to the nature of the sufficient condition. Most neutral conditions do not have a conscious guiding force within them that pushes a certain outcome on them, but Buddha-nature is not a neutral condition because it entails naturally the application of the external force of the immense compassionate vows of the awakened ones. Buddha-nature then, is like a pair that always comes with the compassionate activity of the buddhas and bodhisattvas, even though it may take aeons to fully actualise its effectiveness. So, this is probably one, among many reasons, why all beings having Buddha-nature is equivalent to all beings will attain buddhahood. It is both a necessary and sufficient condition (so I am changing my opinion from earlier that it was necessary but not sufficient).
:anjali:
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by Malcolm »

Zhen Li wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 3:43 amSo, this is probably one, among many reasons, why all beings having Buddha-nature is equivalent to all beings will attain buddhahood. It is both a necessary and sufficient condition (so I am changing my opinion from earlier that it was necessary but not sufficient).
:anjali:
The reason why your argument here is flawed is that there is a clear distinction to be made between natural gotra and “expanded gotra.” For example, all viable seeds have the potential to germinate (natural gotra), but without water, warmth, and soil, they won’t germinate (expanded gotra). It is just not inevitable that all sentient beings will develop the aspiration to attain buddhahood for the welfare of all sentient beings. As the old saying goes, one can lead a horse to water, but one can’t force it to drink. All sentient beings may be “buddhanatured”, but not all sentient will necessarily generate Mahayana bodhicitta. Without bodhicitta, buddhahood is just not possible. This also why Madhyamikas like Candrakirti entertain the probability that there are some benighted sentient beings who will never attain buddhahood, despite having the potential to attain buddhahood, just as some seeds never germinate, even though they are viable.
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

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There are simply two schools of thought in this matter. While on the one hand the Nirvana Sutra affirms that there are icchantikas, it also suggests that not only will they lose their icchantika status, but as with all beings, they’ll attain buddhahood inevitably. I would place the Lotus Sutra into this branch. I think from this perspective it’s clear that if the horse is by the water for an eternity, since there’s an infinite amount of time and a finite array of volitional dispositions and spatial movements, they’ll come to the conditions that give rise to their drinking eventually. This, along with the power and goading of the supreme tamer of gods and men to boot. It’s a natural gotra, but not merely a natural gotra—we don’t live in a vacuum, not from one another and definitely not from the Buddhas.

On the other hand, there’s a calculative and sceptical perspective that believes in the irredeemable nature of some beings—despite Buddha nature. A kind of shadow icchantika. I think you can choose what you want to accept in this regard, and it won’t make any difference to your day to day life or practice.
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

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Zhen Li wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:57 am
Aemilius wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:04 am There are several things here. It is unhealthy and unbuddhistic attitude to say that "bodhisattvas can do..." You are moving the responsibility away from your self, which is not good. What are you, as a bodhisattva, doing? What kind of contact and experience do you have with animals and insects?

From own limited experience, limited because there are so many different species and individual animals, I have found that animals, for example certain kind of rodents, think that they are the centre of the universe, just like humans do. Most animals don't consider humans to have consciousness or wisdom. They think it is a great good fortune having born as a true rodent, squirrel, fox or the animal of their extremely fortunate species.

Infinite regress will not do. I man sure reality is something else, reality is otherwise. The mainstream buddhism will not change its habitual perceptions. That cannot be expected.
Although there have been some individuals in the history of Dharma, who have had very different views and experiences about animals, that is not totally nonexistent. Certain visionary has written a handbook or dictionary of bird languages.
Here's another thing that I think might be causing some friction in this conversation. It is not that all beings in their current state will attain Buddhahood. They have to attain at least a human birth first to enter the path.
I would not be so sure about that, for the reasons already stated, like the ecological impossibility and the human self-love or human self-centeredness.
There are other forms of communication than the human language.
Even Vishuddhimagga says that Buddha is also a teacher of animals. That theme is found also in the Karandavyuha sutra.

If you are free from grasping at a person or being in the skandhas, you can see all beings as buddhas.
Thus you would be free form grasping at a being or self in the skandhas of a crocodile, for example.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

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Aemilius wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 10:03 am I would not be so sure about that, for the reasons already stated, like the ecological impossibility and the human self-love or human self-centeredness.
There are other forms of communication than the human language.
Even Vishuddhimagga says that Buddha is also a teacher of animals. That theme is found also in the Karandavyuha sutra.

If you are free from grasping at a person or being in the skandhas, you can see all beings as buddhas.
Thus you would be free form grasping at a being or self in the skandhas of a crocodile, for example.
I admit the possibility but I’m trying to be a bit even handed in offering limitations on my side of this conversation. But we could take it further and admit that upon awakening even rocks and trees are liberated.
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

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Zhen Li wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 12:21 pm
Aemilius wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 10:03 am I would not be so sure about that, for the reasons already stated, like the ecological impossibility and the human self-love or human self-centeredness.
There are other forms of communication than the human language.
Even Vishuddhimagga says that Buddha is also a teacher of animals. That theme is found also in the Karandavyuha sutra.

If you are free from grasping at a person or being in the skandhas, you can see all beings as buddhas.
Thus you would be free form grasping at a being or self in the skandhas of a crocodile, for example.
I admit the possibility but I’m trying to be a bit even handed in offering limitations on my side of this conversation. But we could take it further and admit that upon awakening even rocks and trees are liberated.
That is a thought, but I don't usually make that leap. Mammals and other animals are born, die and experience suffering in the same way as humans do. They have more in common with humans than stones, rocks, mountains and lakes have. They also have chromosomes like humans have.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

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That trees, rocks, walls, all attain awakening and teach the Dharma, and that the Dharma is also taught for their sake is a theme that comes up in Dogen’s work. Shinran also mentions “Buddha-nature is none other than Tathagata. This Tathagata pervades the countless worlds; it fills the hearts and minds of the ocean of all beings. Thus, plants, trees, and land all attain Buddhahood.”

These are profound teachings.
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

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It is up to one self, what you have experienced and what you have not experienced. I have a couple of funny or unusual experiences with rocks or stones, and I will not deny that as a possible aspect of reality.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by Malcolm »

Zhen Li wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 8:32 am There are simply two schools of thought in this matter. While on the one hand the Nirvana Sutra affirms that there are icchantikas, it also suggests that not only will they lose their icchantika status, but as with all beings, they’ll attain buddhahood inevitably.
This is one kind of agotra. There is a second, the permanent agotra, mentioned in the Mahāyānasūtrālaṃkāra. Interestingly, gotra and tathāgatagarbha are not the same thing. All beings have tathāgatagarbha, but not all beings possess the gotra.
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by Zhen Li »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 4:37 pm
Zhen Li wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 8:32 am There are simply two schools of thought in this matter. While on the one hand the Nirvana Sutra affirms that there are icchantikas, it also suggests that not only will they lose their icchantika status, but as with all beings, they’ll attain buddhahood inevitably.
This is one kind of agotra. There is a second, the permanent agotra, mentioned in the Mahāyānasūtrālaṃkāra. Interestingly, gotra and tathāgatagarbha are not the same thing. All beings have tathāgatagarbha, but not all beings possess the gotra.
Actually, icchantikas in the Nirvāṇa Sūtra actually are lacking in Buddha-nature, but all can regain it. Buddha-nature is something that all have the potential to possess, so one could say that all have the gotra to possess Buddha-nature but not necessarily the actualisation of that nature. Maybe this idea is something behind what inspired the discussion of two kinds of agotra in MSA III.11, but I am not inclined to agree with its model (at least in regard to two kinds of agotra).
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