Will all eventually become Buddhas?

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Aemilius
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by Aemilius »

Zhen Li wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:10 am Aemilius, you have no idea how many buddhas or bodhisattvas there are.

You cannot compare a finitude to an infininitude. They're simply not compatible. You can't use calculative logic to understand awakening, it fails every time.
You could, for example, take a modest task of teaching karma and reincarnation to the people of greek orthodox faith. That would be a rational undertaking compared with "all beings...", would it not?

I know that for example Vishuddhimagga mentions 5 and 7 categories of objects for Maitri-bhavana, such as: all creatures, every thing that breathes, all those counted as individuals, and so on.. , I am not unaware of that.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Queequeg
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by Queequeg »

I've always considered these bookend stories about the first being who awoke and the ultimate awakening of every sentient being like a rainbow - the origin of the rainbow and its end are always in the remote distance precisely dependent on one's present vantage point. These are edifying stories about how one ought to conduct themselves now, in the context of the boundless mind-moment. The moment of awakening will put such edifying stories into context and cause them to fall off like the flower petals from a ripe fruit.

I agree with Zhen Li here - there is ample scriptural support for the assertion that all sentient beings will become buddhas; he suggested this is a Jodo Shinshu position, but I would point out that this can at least be traced to the Tendai-Kegon debates on Buddhanature in Japan, and likely the Madhyamaka-Yogacara debates in China. I would further suggest that such teachings on universal buddhahood are stories dependent on the conditions of samsara that are resolved in bodhi in ways that cannot presently be fathomed.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:49 pm
I agree with Zhen Li here - there is ample scriptural support for the assertion that all sentient beings will become buddhas;
No, there is scriptural support for the idea all _can_ become Buddhas. Even the Lotus only asserts a prediction. Such assertions are interpretable, like the teachings on buddhanature itself. Thus is not a guarantee that all will become Buddhas. This is why Indian Madhyamakas, no slouches when it comes to reading and interpreting sutras, deny the existence of icchantikas while allowing that there are some beings so benighted that they will never attain buddhahood.

They amount to a “Sure, buddy, you can do it!” In contrast to the sourpuss shravakayana assertions that one has to receive a prediction in person from a buddha, while being male and so on.

And, if all sentient beings are actually going to become Buddhas, thus undermines the reason for having bodhicitta in the first place. There are a number of negative consequences for taking such a position literally.
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

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Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:14 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:49 pm
I agree with Zhen Li here - there is ample scriptural support for the assertion that all sentient beings will become buddhas;
No, there is scriptural support for the idea all _can_ become Buddhas. Even the Lotus only asserts a prediction. Such assertions are interpretable, like the teachings on buddhanature itself. Thus is not a guarantee that all will become Buddhas. This is why Indian Madhyamakas, no slouches when it comes to reading and interpreting sutras, deny the existence of icchantikas while allowing that there are some beings so benighted that they will never attain buddhahood.

They amount to a “Sure, buddy, you can do it!” In contrast to the sourpuss shravakayana assertions that one has to receive a prediction in person from a buddha, while being male and so on.

And, if all sentient beings are actually going to become Buddhas, thus undermines the reason for having bodhicitta in the first place. There are a number of negative consequences for taking such a position literally.
I think I come around more or less without carrying the one, so to speak. As edifying stories, they imply what needs to be done now, by someone who chooses to undertake the path. Whether such calculations are even possible where the absolutes are inestimable is beside the point. One must conduct themselves as though this is a literal possibility. At bodhi, from what I can infer, the actual answer to this question doesn't matter.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:25 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:14 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:49 pm
I agree with Zhen Li here - there is ample scriptural support for the assertion that all sentient beings will become buddhas;
No, there is scriptural support for the idea all _can_ become Buddhas. Even the Lotus only asserts a prediction. Such assertions are interpretable, like the teachings on buddhanature itself. Thus is not a guarantee that all will become Buddhas. This is why Indian Madhyamakas, no slouches when it comes to reading and interpreting sutras, deny the existence of icchantikas while allowing that there are some beings so benighted that they will never attain buddhahood.

They amount to a “Sure, buddy, you can do it!” In contrast to the sourpuss shravakayana assertions that one has to receive a prediction in person from a buddha, while being male and so on.

And, if all sentient beings are actually going to become Buddhas, thus undermines the reason for having bodhicitta in the first place. There are a number of negative consequences for taking such a position literally.
I think I come around more or less without carrying the one, so to speak. As edifying stories, they imply what needs to be done now, by someone who chooses to undertake the path. Whether such calculations are even possible where the absolutes are inestimable is beside the point. One must conduct themselves as though this is a literal possibility. At bodhi, from what I can infer, the actual answer to this question doesn't matter.
Also, Dzogchen teachings assert that while all sentient beings manifested in this mahakalpa will attain buddhahood, in the next kalpa, an infinite number of latent sentient beings will manifest.

Above, I said “traditions”, I should have said “positions.” The position that all sentient beings will attain buddhahood is not a valid Mahayana position, IMO.
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

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Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:25 pm As edifying stories, they imply what needs to be done now, by someone who chooses to undertake the path. Whether such calculations are even possible where the absolutes are inestimable is beside the point. One must conduct themselves as though this is a literal possibility. At bodhi, from what I can infer, the actual answer to this question doesn't matter.
Yes, this idea does serve an edificatory purpose, but it is also stated as a fact that all beings will attain buddhahood, it's just a part of Mahāyāna doctrine. And yes, if beings cannot attain bodhi, then I think bodhicitta is undermined. One vows to awaken all beings, including icchantikas. Of course, as you suggest with regard to bodhi, upon awakening, one also awakens all beings. So there are multiple layers of meaning to this idea.
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:45 pm Also, Dzogchen teachings assert that while all sentient beings manifested in this mahakalpa will attain buddhahood, in the next kalpa, an infinite number of latent sentient beings will manifest.
This is not in contradiction to the idea that all will eventually become buddhas. Yes, latent beings will manifest. They will too become buddhas, and the ones after them, and the ones after them, and the ones after them, etc.

Beings are infinite, I vow to liberate them all.

This is what it means to be a bodhisattva. Infinite means infinite. Liberate means liberate. It's so simple and yet it's beyond calculative thought.
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by Malcolm »

Zhen Li wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:12 am
Beings are infinite, I vow to liberate them all.

This is what it means to be a bodhisattva. Infinite means infinite. Liberate means liberate. It's so simple and yet it's beyond calculative thought.
In the Tibetan tradition this is understood to be an impossible aspiration, though meritorious. For example, the Buddha, as Shantideva points out, perfected generosity not because he could actually relieve the poverty of all sentient beings, but because he wished to—the merit of such aspirations exceeds the fact that they cannot possibly be achieved. And it goes without saying, Buddhas cannot liberate anyone. The proof of this is that there are still sentient beings. No Buddha with the capacity to liberate sentient beings would ever leave so many in samsara. One can only liberate oneself from this samsara. No Buddha or bodhisattva can do it for you. There is no choice but to practice a path taught by the Buddha, and without a precious human birth, that choice isn’t even available.
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

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Malcolm wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:15 am
Zhen Li wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:12 am
Beings are infinite, I vow to liberate them all.

This is what it means to be a bodhisattva. Infinite means infinite. Liberate means liberate. It's so simple and yet it's beyond calculative thought.
In the Tibetan tradition this is understood to be an impossible aspiration, though meritorious. For example, the Buddha, as Shantideva points out, perfected generosity not because he could actually relieve the poverty of all sentient beings, but because he wished to—the merit of such aspirations exceeds the fact that they cannot possibly be achieved. And it goes without saying, Buddhas cannot liberate anyone. The proof of this is that there are still sentient beings. No Buddha with the capacity to liberate sentient beings would ever leave so many in samsara. One can only liberate oneself from this samsara. No Buddha or bodhisattva can do it for you. There is no choice but to practice a path taught by the Buddha, and without a precious human birth, that choice isn’t even available.
This is conflating the time of aspiration with the time it takes to liberate beings. The time it takes is also infinite. Buddha activity is continuous and infinite. From the perspective of an ordinary being it will appear like nothing is being done, but actually, awakening activity is continually being wrought upon one unawares.

Again, the idea that one is liberating oneself is from the ordinary perspective. From the ultimate perspective, all hearing, understanding, and practice are performed by the Buddha, who dwells within the bodies of all beings. This is taught in Chapter 1 of the Tathāgataguhya.
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by Malcolm »

Zhen Li wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:27 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:15 am
Zhen Li wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:12 am
Beings are infinite, I vow to liberate them all.

This is what it means to be a bodhisattva. Infinite means infinite. Liberate means liberate. It's so simple and yet it's beyond calculative thought.
In the Tibetan tradition this is understood to be an impossible aspiration, though meritorious. For example, the Buddha, as Shantideva points out, perfected generosity not because he could actually relieve the poverty of all sentient beings, but because he wished to—the merit of such aspirations exceeds the fact that they cannot possibly be achieved. And it goes without saying, Buddhas cannot liberate anyone. The proof of this is that there are still sentient beings. No Buddha with the capacity to liberate sentient beings would ever leave so many in samsara. One can only liberate oneself from this samsara. No Buddha or bodhisattva can do it for you. There is no choice but to practice a path taught by the Buddha, and without a precious human birth, that choice isn’t even available.
This is conflating the time of aspiration with the time it takes to liberate beings. The time it takes is also infinite. Buddha activity is continuous and infinite. From the perspective of an ordinary being it will appear like nothing is being done, but actually, awakening activity is continually being wrought upon one unawares.

Again, the idea that one is liberating oneself is from the ordinary perspective. From the ultimate perspective, all hearing, understanding, and practice are performed by the Buddha, who dwells within the bodies of all beings. This is taught in Chapter 1 of the Tathāgataguhya.
From the ultimate perspective there is no Buddha, sentient being, liberation, or bondage. There isn’t even a dharmakaya.

Did you have in mind a specific passage from your translation?
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by Caoimhghín »

Intersecting with "liberating all beings" is an interesting little Nirdeśa called the Anūnatvāpūrṇatvanirdeśaparivarta, or 佛説不増不減經. It is cited in the Ratnagotravibhāga. There is a paper with a translation of it by Jonathan Silk called Buddhist Cosmic Unity floating around the Internet. It makes a great point of arguing that "Neither increase nor decrease" is found in either the sattvadhātu or the dharmadhātu.

I think resolving the tensions between "neither increase nor decrease" and "liberating all beings" resides in the notion of "saving all sentient beings with no notion of 'a being'" (救護一切眾生離眾生相). There are no beings, so saving them all is relative.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

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Malcolm wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:45 am
Zhen Li wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:27 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:15 am

In the Tibetan tradition this is understood to be an impossible aspiration, though meritorious. For example, the Buddha, as Shantideva points out, perfected generosity not because he could actually relieve the poverty of all sentient beings, but because he wished to—the merit of such aspirations exceeds the fact that they cannot possibly be achieved. And it goes without saying, Buddhas cannot liberate anyone. The proof of this is that there are still sentient beings. No Buddha with the capacity to liberate sentient beings would ever leave so many in samsara. One can only liberate oneself from this samsara. No Buddha or bodhisattva can do it for you. There is no choice but to practice a path taught by the Buddha, and without a precious human birth, that choice isn’t even available.
This is conflating the time of aspiration with the time it takes to liberate beings. The time it takes is also infinite. Buddha activity is continuous and infinite. From the perspective of an ordinary being it will appear like nothing is being done, but actually, awakening activity is continually being wrought upon one unawares.

Again, the idea that one is liberating oneself is from the ordinary perspective. From the ultimate perspective, all hearing, understanding, and practice are performed by the Buddha, who dwells within the bodies of all beings. This is taught in Chapter 1 of the Tathāgataguhya.
From the ultimate perspective there is no Buddha, sentient being, liberation, or bondage. There isn’t even a dharmakaya.
That's why this discussion is going in circles. The ultimate perspective is continually being responded to with the conventional perspective.
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:45 am Did you have in mind a specific passage from your translation?
Chapter 1 section 8k
But more specifically Chapter 15 section 1:
Lord of Mysteries! It is just as you have said, it is just as you have said. Why? You should now understand that the Tathāgata explains all Dharma teachings by setting up similes and that the superior wisdom possessed by all Tathāgatas dwells in the bodies of all sentient beings. Why? Lord of Mysteries! It would not be possible otherwise for all sentient beings abiding anywhere to accord with the secrets that the Tathāgata teaches if they did not contain the Tathāgata’s power of assistance and accord with the Tathāgata’s Dharma nature. Furthermore, if one hears, if one speaks, and if one has an understanding about the profound Dharma of the secrets taught by the Tathāgata, then that is all by virtue of the power of the Tathāgata’s assistance.
This meshes quite well with the model of awakening expanded upon in the Nirvāṇa sūtra. All awakening is on the side of Buddha-nature. Impure cause cannot give rise to impure result.
Caoimhghín wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:53 amI think resolving the tensions between "neither increase nor decrease" and "liberating all beings" resides in the notion of "saving all sentient beings with no notion of 'a being'" (救護一切眾生離眾生相). There are no beings, so saving them all is relative.
That is true, but liberation of all beings takes place on both the conventional and ultimate level. But, they are happening in different ways in both.

The infinitude of beings is not a problem. The liberating action of a buddha and bodhisattva depends on the minds of unawakened beings. If there are no deluded beings, there's no need for awakening activity. Just as beings are infinite, buddhas and their deeds are infinite.

It's not a matter of adding up the number Buddhists in the world and seeing how many more beings can be converted, it's just a matter of understanding the nature of buddha and bodhisattva activity. If one's understanding is wrong, one will conclude contrary to the Dharma that beings cannot be liberated. If one's understanding is correct, one will know that all beings have buddha-nature and will inevitably attain buddhahood. Buddha-nature is like a magnet, it's always drawing beings to awakening.
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by Aemilius »

Zhen Li wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:12 am
Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:25 pm As edifying stories, they imply what needs to be done now, by someone who chooses to undertake the path. Whether such calculations are even possible where the absolutes are inestimable is beside the point. One must conduct themselves as though this is a literal possibility. At bodhi, from what I can infer, the actual answer to this question doesn't matter.
Yes, this idea does serve an edificatory purpose, but it is also stated as a fact that all beings will attain buddhahood, it's just a part of Mahāyāna doctrine. And yes, if beings cannot attain bodhi, then I think bodhicitta is undermined. One vows to awaken all beings, including icchantikas. Of course, as you suggest with regard to bodhi, upon awakening, one also awakens all beings. So there are multiple layers of meaning to this idea.
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:45 pm Also, Dzogchen teachings assert that while all sentient beings manifested in this mahakalpa will attain buddhahood, in the next kalpa, an infinite number of latent sentient beings will manifest.
This is not in contradiction to the idea that all will eventually become buddhas. Yes, latent beings will manifest. They will too become buddhas, and the ones after them, and the ones after them, and the ones after them, etc.

Beings are infinite, I vow to liberate them all.

This is what it means to be a bodhisattva. Infinite means infinite. Liberate means liberate. It's so simple and yet it's beyond calculative thought.
If you take the attitude that thousand billion animals, insects and microbes have to attain the human body and then learn the Dharma, that is just ecologically and biologically impossible. Or there would be thousand times more new insects, animals and microbes to fill in the hole in the ecosystem.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by Zhen Li »

Aemilius wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:27 am
Zhen Li wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:12 am
Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:25 pm As edifying stories, they imply what needs to be done now, by someone who chooses to undertake the path. Whether such calculations are even possible where the absolutes are inestimable is beside the point. One must conduct themselves as though this is a literal possibility. At bodhi, from what I can infer, the actual answer to this question doesn't matter.
Yes, this idea does serve an edificatory purpose, but it is also stated as a fact that all beings will attain buddhahood, it's just a part of Mahāyāna doctrine. And yes, if beings cannot attain bodhi, then I think bodhicitta is undermined. One vows to awaken all beings, including icchantikas. Of course, as you suggest with regard to bodhi, upon awakening, one also awakens all beings. So there are multiple layers of meaning to this idea.
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:45 pm Also, Dzogchen teachings assert that while all sentient beings manifested in this mahakalpa will attain buddhahood, in the next kalpa, an infinite number of latent sentient beings will manifest.
This is not in contradiction to the idea that all will eventually become buddhas. Yes, latent beings will manifest. They will too become buddhas, and the ones after them, and the ones after them, and the ones after them, etc.

Beings are infinite, I vow to liberate them all.

This is what it means to be a bodhisattva. Infinite means infinite. Liberate means liberate. It's so simple and yet it's beyond calculative thought.
If you take the attitude that thousand billion animals, insects and microbes have to attain the human body and then learn the Dharma, that is just ecologically and biologically impossible. Or there would be thousand times more new insects, animals and microbes to fill in the hole in the ecosystem.
It's just an infinite regress, they keep coming and they keep getting liberated. Also, you are limiting your imagination to just this planet.
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by Aemilius »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:14 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:49 pm
I agree with Zhen Li here - there is ample scriptural support for the assertion that all sentient beings will become buddhas;
No, there is scriptural support for the idea all _can_ become Buddhas. Even the Lotus only asserts a prediction. Such assertions are interpretable, like the teachings on buddhanature itself. Thus is not a guarantee that all will become Buddhas. This is why Indian Madhyamakas, no slouches when it comes to reading and interpreting sutras, deny the existence of icchantikas while allowing that there are some beings so benighted that they will never attain buddhahood.

They amount to a “Sure, buddy, you can do it!” In contrast to the sourpuss shravakayana assertions that one has to receive a prediction in person from a buddha, while being male and so on.

And, if all sentient beings are actually going to become Buddhas, thus undermines the reason for having bodhicitta in the first place. There are a number of negative consequences for taking such a position literally.
You could take the attitude of the Diamond sutra that there are no beings, no ego etc, and thus no person or being to attain anything.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by Astus »

Imagining that there are sentient beings and buddhas out there somewhere, how is that not delusion? Huineng said it clearly:

"Good friends, the ‘sentient beings of our own minds’ are the mental states of delusion, confusion, immorality, jealousy, and evil. All these are sentient beings, and we must all [undergo] automatic salvation of the self-nature. This is called true salvation.
What is ‘automatic salvation of the self-nature’? It is to use correct views to save the sentient beings of false views, afflictions, and stupidity within our own minds. Having correct views, we may use the wisdom of prajñā to destroy the sentient beings of stupidity and delusion, automatically saving each and every one of them.When the false occurs, it is saved by the correct. When delusion occurs, it is saved by enlightenment. When stupidity occurs, it is saved by wisdom. When evil occurs, it is saved by good. Salvation such as this is called true salvation."

(Platform Sutra, ch 6, BDK ed, p 48-49)

In summary:

Someone asked, “If one kills one’s father and mother, one can repent in front of the Buddha. Where does one repent if one kills the Buddha and the patriarchs?”
The Master said, “Exposed!”

(Record of Yunmen, no. 48)

To clarify:

“If you say ‘this very mind is buddha,’ you provisionally accept the slave as master and life-and-death (samsara) as nirvana. This is precisely like cutting off one’s head in pursuit of life. Talking about buddhas and founders and their respective intentions is just like snatching away your own eyeballs while looking for soap berries.”
(Record of Yunmen, no. 148)

In more words:

'It is like the warrior who was deluded regarding the pearl within his forehead and who searched for it elsewhere. He traveled about all the ten directions but was ultimately unable to recover it, whereupon a wise person pointed it out and he [then] saw for himself that the pearl [was on his forehead] as it had always been. Thus it is that students of the Way are deluded as to their own fundamental mind, not recognizing it as Buddha. They search for it outside [of their own minds], generating effortful practices and depending on graduated increases in realization. They pass through eons of diligent seeking but never achieve enlightenment. This is not equal to right now achieving no-mind.'
(Essentials of the Transmission of Mind, ch 3, in Zen Texts, BDK ed, p 18-19)

Returning to Huineng:

'Good friends, ordinary people are buddhas, and the afflictions are bodhi. With a preceding moment of deluded thought, one was an ordinary person, but with a succeeding moment of enlightened thought, one is a buddha. To be attached to one’s sensory realms in a preceding moment of thought is affliction, but to transcend the realms in a succeeding moment of thought is bodhi.'
(Platform Sutra, ch 2, BDK ed, p 30)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by Malcolm »

Astus wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:23 am Imagining that there are sentient beings and buddhas out there somewhere, how is that not delusion?
No more deluded than imagining that there are Buddhas and sentient beings “in here somewhere”

Poor Huineng, the delusions perpetrated in his name…
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by Astus »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:34 amNo more deluded than imagining that there are Buddhas and sentient beings “in here somewhere”
Such an assumption was meant to be avoided by the subsequent quotes. Another one on that specifically:

When the snow was gone, the three monks bade farewell and started to depart.
Dizang accompanied them to the gate and asked, “I’ve heard you say several times that ‘the three realms are only mind and the myriad dharmas are only consciousness.’”
Dizang then pointed to a rock lying on the ground by the gate and said, “So do you say that this rock is inside or outside of mind?”
Fayan said, “Inside.”
Dizang said, “How can a pilgrim carry such a rock in his mind while on pilgrimage?”
Dumbfounded, Fayan couldn’t answer. He put his luggage down at Dizang’s feet and asked him to clarify the truth. Each day for the next month or so Fayan spoke about the Way with Dizang and demonstrated his understanding.
Dizang would always say, “The Buddhadharma isn’t like that.”
Finally, Fayan said, “I’ve run out of words and ideas.”
Dizang said, “If you want to talk about Buddhadharma, everything you see embodies it.”
At these words Fayan experienced great enlightenment.

(Zen's Chinese Heritage, p 342-343)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Malcolm
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by Malcolm »

Astus wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 1:01 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:34 amNo more deluded than imagining that there are Buddhas and sentient beings “in here somewhere”
Such an assumption was meant to be avoided by the subsequent quotes. Another one on that specifically:
Quotes are boring, unless couched in reasonings which they support. Proof texts are not arguments.they are to be used to support arguments. You can’t just imitate the words of old masters. You have to use your own words, which show your own understanding.
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by Queequeg »

Zhen Li wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:12 am
Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:25 pm As edifying stories, they imply what needs to be done now, by someone who chooses to undertake the path. Whether such calculations are even possible where the absolutes are inestimable is beside the point. One must conduct themselves as though this is a literal possibility. At bodhi, from what I can infer, the actual answer to this question doesn't matter.
Yes, this idea does serve an edificatory purpose, but it is also stated as a fact that all beings will attain buddhahood, it's just a part of Mahāyāna doctrine.
Here's what I'm taking away from this - both this Mahayana view you describe and the view Malcolm is describing are dealing with these teachings as literal truths.

I don't take them that way. When I say these are edifying stories, I actually mean that, literally. Edifying. Stories. They're guidelines directing us on the path to awakening and away from wrong views. When they become dogma and cease having the function of edifying, they become baggage to be dropped.

When I sit and try to observe my mind, whether every amoeba eventually awakens is quite irrelevant. Maybe there comes a point on the path where this does come to matter... I don't see it yet. These stories do, however frame the way I ought to address and interact with beings in my day to day activity. I do feel better at the end of the day when I've been able to conduct myself in a respectful way through my daily activities. Having a clear conscience helps to cultivate concentration and to carry out insight practice.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Malcolm
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Re: Will all eventually become Buddhas?

Post by Malcolm »

Zhen Li wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 5:27 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:45 am
From the ultimate perspective there is no Buddha, sentient being, liberation, or bondage. There isn’t even a dharmakaya.
That's why this discussion is going in circles. The ultimate perspective is continually being responded to with the conventional perspective.
The ultimate perspective is that no buddha, sentient being, liberation, bondage, or buddhakāyas can be established at all. Buddha, sentient being, liberation, bondage, kāyas, gnoses, etc. are all just conventional designations and do not refer to anything real. Why? Your sūtra itself states it as follows:

The tathāgata kāya is the kāya of space, the kāya equal with the unequalled, the kāya that is superior to all the three realms, the kāya of endowed with the suchness of all sentient beings, the kāya that is incomparable, unmatched, pure, immaculate, and without all afflictions, the kāya of natural luminosity, the kāya that does not arise by nature, the kāya that is unproduced by nature, the kāya that is not connected with mind, intellect, or consciousness, the kāya that has the nature of an illusion, mirage, and a moon in the water..."

Then of course, there is the Sūtra That Explicates the Relative and Ultimate Truth (ārya-saṃvṛti-paramārtha-satya-nirdeśa-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra Toh. 179):

Child of a good family, all buddhafields are not buddhafields. Why? because there is truly is no birth in the ultimate. All buddhas are not buddhas. Why? because there is truly no production in the ultimate. All phenomena are not phenomena. Why? Because there is there is truly nothing real in the ultimate. All sentient beings are not sentient beings. Why? Because there is truly no source of suffering in the ultimate.

Chapter 1 section 8k
Not seeing how this section endorses your assertion.
But more specifically Chapter 15 section 1:
the superior wisdom possessed by all Tathāgatas dwells in the bodies of all sentient beings...
I don't agree with your rendering of this part of the passage:

ཆོས་སྨྲ་བ་དེ་དག་ཐམས་ཅད་ཀྱི་ལུས་ལ་དེ་བཞིན་གཤེགས་པའི་ཡེ་ཤེས་གནས་སོ

This states very clearly in Tibetan, "The gnosis of the tathāgata abides in the bodies of all those dharmabhāṇakas."

It does not say the the gnosis of the tathāgata abides in the bodies of all sentient beings. This being so, I reject your argument.
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