Sotapannas and killing

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Shinjin
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Sotapannas and killing

Post by Shinjin »

Do Sotapannas/stream enterers have the ability to kill according to the Mahayana understanding?
Malcolm
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Re: Sotapannas and killing

Post by Malcolm »

Shinjin wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:41 pm Do Sotapannas/stream enterers have the ability to kill according to the Mahayana understanding?
Assuming you are referring to Mahāyāna stream entrants, i.e. first stage bodhisattvas, sure——they definitely can end the life of evil beings in order to protect sentient beings.
Shinjin
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Re: Sotapannas and killing

Post by Shinjin »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:43 pm
Shinjin wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:41 pm Do Sotapannas/stream enterers have the ability to kill according to the Mahayana understanding?
Assuming you are referring to Mahāyāna stream entrants, i.e. first stage bodhisattvas, sure——they definitely can end the life of evil beings in order to protect sentient beings.
I'm talking about the Hinayana stream enterer.
Malcolm
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Re: Sotapannas and killing

Post by Malcolm »

Shinjin wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:09 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:43 pm
Shinjin wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:41 pm Do Sotapannas/stream enterers have the ability to kill according to the Mahayana understanding?
Assuming you are referring to Mahāyāna stream entrants, i.e. first stage bodhisattvas, sure——they definitely can end the life of evil beings in order to protect sentient beings.
I'm talking about the Hinayana stream enterer.
It's not possible.
Shinjin
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Re: Sotapannas and killing

Post by Shinjin »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:37 pm
Shinjin wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:09 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:43 pm

Assuming you are referring to Mahāyāna stream entrants, i.e. first stage bodhisattvas, sure——they definitely can end the life of evil beings in order to protect sentient beings.
I'm talking about the Hinayana stream enterer.
It's not possible.
Even out of self defense or if they have a mice infestation inside their homes? How is that practical for them?
Arnoud
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Re: Sotapannas and killing

Post by Arnoud »

Since stream enterers get rid of view of self, clinging to rituals and doubt, how does it follow that they can’t kill?
Malcolm
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Re: Sotapannas and killing

Post by Malcolm »

Shinjin wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:47 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:37 pm
Shinjin wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:09 pm
I'm talking about the Hinayana stream enterer.
It's not possible.
Even out of self defense or if they have a mice infestation inside their homes? How is that practical for them?
They live with the mice, they have no self to defend.
Malcolm
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Re: Sotapannas and killing

Post by Malcolm »

Arnoud wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:49 pm Since stream enterers get rid of view of self, clinging to rituals and doubt, how does it follow that they can’t kill?
They are incapable of breaking precepts, the most basic of which is refraining from killing.
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Re: Sotapannas and killing

Post by Arnoud »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:01 pm
Arnoud wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:49 pm Since stream enterers get rid of view of self, clinging to rituals and doubt, how does it follow that they can’t kill?
They are incapable of breaking precepts, the most basic of which is refraining from killing.
So since they have no doubt they have perfect faith in the Dharma and because they have perfect faith in the Dharma they have perfect faith in the precepts and someone who has perfect faith in the precepts won’t/can’t break the precepts?
Trying to understand the reasoning behind it. Thank you.
Shinjin
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Re: Sotapannas and killing

Post by Shinjin »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:58 pm
Shinjin wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:47 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:37 pm

It's not possible.
Even out of self defense or if they have a mice infestation inside their homes? How is that practical for them?
They live with the mice, they have no self to defend.
In contrast to Mahayana stream enterants who don't percieve a self either but have the ability to kill because of obligations to fellow sentient beings?
Malcolm
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Re: Sotapannas and killing

Post by Malcolm »

"And what does it mean to be consummate in virtue? There is the case where a noble disciple abstains from taking life, abstains from stealing, abstains from illicit sexual conduct, abstains from lying, abstains from taking intoxicants that cause heedlessness. This is called being consummate in virtue.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/stu ... ssociation
"Monks, there are these six rewards in realizing the fruit of stream-entry. Which six? One is certain of the true Dhamma. One is not subject to falling back. There is no suffering over what has had a limit placed on it. [1] One is endowed with uncommon knowledge. [2] One rightly sees cause, along with causally-originated phenomena.
Shinjin
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Re: Sotapannas and killing

Post by Shinjin »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 8:39 pm
"And what does it mean to be consummate in virtue? There is the case where a noble disciple abstains from taking life, abstains from stealing, abstains from illicit sexual conduct, abstains from lying, abstains from taking intoxicants that cause heedlessness. This is called being consummate in virtue.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/stu ... ssociation
"Monks, there are these six rewards in realizing the fruit of stream-entry. Which six? One is certain of the true Dhamma. One is not subject to falling back. There is no suffering over what has had a limit placed on it. [1] One is endowed with uncommon knowledge. [2] One rightly sees cause, along with causally-originated phenomena.
Alright, thanks. 👍
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Astus
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Re: Sotapannas and killing

Post by Astus »

It might also be noted that a bodhisattva from the second bhumi does not commit any of the ten bad actions, as stated in The Ten Bhumis chapter.

'The bodhisattva abiding on this ground
naturally abstains from engaging in bad actions.
Because he deeply delights in good dharmas,
he naturally practices the courses of good karmic action.'

(Nāgārjuna's Treatise on the Ten Bodhisattva Grounds, ch 28, p 490)

'Since they have the abundant qualities of discipline,
They refrain from faulty discipline even in their dreams.
Because the movements of their body, speech, and mind are pure,
They accumulate the actions of the genuine ones’ tenfold path.'

(Madhyamakavatara 2.1, in The Karmapa's Middle Way, p 610)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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