How to know if a Dharma Center is a "Sangha" or "official"?

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Padmist
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How to know if a Dharma Center is a "Sangha" or "official"?

Post by Padmist »

Must a Dharma Center be officially and authorized center by a specific tradition to operate? Like for example, a local Dharma center is officiated or authorized by a central body/office of a tradition. (Zen, Tibetan, etc)

Is it possible that some Dharma Center are just local groups of people that have no official ties with any tradition? And if so, is that a valid sangha?

Is this Dharma Center a valid tradition or sangha? (officially part of a lineage)

http://www.skycreekdharmacenter.org/about-us/
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: How to know if a Dharma Center is a "Sangha" or "official"?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Padmist wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 7:33 pm Must a Dharma Center be officially and authorized center by a specific tradition to operate? Like for example, a local Dharma center is officiated or authorized by a central body/office of a tradition. (Zen, Tibetan, etc)
Of course not, do you really not know this, or are you just asking rhetorically? There are all kinds of Dharma centers that informal, and there is no Buddhist Pope to tell people otherwise. Caveat emptor, obviously, especially if you are looking for a teacher.
Is it possible that some Dharma Center are just local groups of people that have no official ties with any tradition? And if so, is that a valid sangha?
Of course. Teachers become teachers by having disciples, basically. I mean of course in Vajrayana and some other traditions there are quite specific qualifications to be a teacher, but for basic Buddhist teachings of course there are groups which are informal and have no structure, and are often led by senior students. Even some established Vajrayana and Bon groups quite often the main teacher is traveling and visits maybe once per year, and even in larger institutions like monasteries, there are plenty of situations where senior students lead practices, even though they are not teachers per se.
Is this Dharma Center a valid tradition or sangha? (officially part of a lineage)

http://www.skycreekdharmacenter.org/about-us/
No idea, ask them, find out for yourself.

I mean, it tells their story on the first page and they bill themselves as "a place to meditate".

Whether or not it's "valid" would be a matter of some debate depending on who you are, but they seem to be quite transparent about the origin of the center and are not even claiming some sort of official lineage.

Might not be everyone's bag but seems as "valid" as any other small practice group to me, and I'm not sure I understand the point of the line of questioning, since your questions are answered on the very web page you are posting. In short, it seems to clearly be a group of eclectic practitioners, and they pretty much say so.
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Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

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Padmist
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Re: How to know if a Dharma Center is a "Sangha" or "official"?

Post by Padmist »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 7:46 pm Of course not, do you really not know this, or are you just asking rhetorically?
I do not know this. I'm looking for some kind of structure, an official connection to a lineage or tradition, as some kind of official, authorized "branch", "local temple", directed, managed, operated, officiated, recognized, by a central body or authority.

For example, Shantideva NYC is not merely a local group on its own. It is an FPMT affiliate or group. Another example, is if one Dharma Center in a State decided to install electric mosquito zappers, the central body/authority could shun the practice and make an official declaration that they are cutting ties with this dharma center.

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 7:46 pm Of course. Teachers become teachers by having disciples, basically. I mean of course in Vajrayana and some other traditions there are quite specific qualifications to be a teacher, but for basic Buddhist teachings of course there are groups which are informal and have no structure, and are often led by senior students. Even some established Vajrayana and Bon groups quite often the main teacher is traveling and visits maybe once per year, and even in larger institutions like monasteries, there are plenty of situations where senior students lead practices, even though they are not teachers per se.
I did not know this. Thanks.



No idea, ask them, find out for yourself.

I mean, it tells their story on the first page and they bill themselves as "a place to meditate".

Whether or not it's "valid" would be a matter of some debate depending on who you are, but they seem to be quite transparent about the origin of the center and are not even claiming some sort of official lineage.

Might not be everyone's bag but seems as "valid" as any other small practice group to me, and I'm not sure I understand the point of the line of questioning, since your questions are answered on the very web page you are posting. In short, it seems to clearly be a group of eclectic practitioners, and they pretty much say so.
Thanks. So I think in this case, the "vinaya" lineage wouldn't be present eh? I mean it cannot be said that this group has the Dharmaguptaka vinaya guiding their "clergy" (which is not present in the first place).
Last edited by Padmist on Sat Jan 22, 2022 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How to know if a Dharma Center is a "Sangha" or "official"?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Padmist wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 7:33 pm Must a Dharma Center be officially and authorized center by a specific tradition to operate? Like for example, a local Dharma center is officiated or authorized by a central body/office of a tradition. (Zen, Tibetan, etc)

Is it possible that some Dharma Center are just local groups of people that have no official ties with any tradition? And if so, is that a valid sangha?

Is this Dharma Center a valid tradition or sangha? (officially part of a lineage)

http://www.skycreekdharmacenter.org/about-us/
What is referred to here as a “sangha” appears to be more of a description of a building facility that various groups use. “Sangha” is, of course, a very loose term. I personally think it is a bit confusing to say that all of these groups “joined our center” because this could be interpreted to mean it absorbed them organizationally, even if that isn’t the intended message.

Aside from this center, in terms of wanting to find an authentic Sangha, keep in mind that just as there are hundreds of little churches and tabernacles in strip malls, started by enthusiastic Christians who had a sudden inspiration to be god’s messengers, there are likewise also a few Buddhist groups started by people who may have received some kind of teachings from appointed teachers (part of historically established lineages), calling themselves this or that lotus temple or whatever, with nice sounding names and well designed logos.

But are the founders of these new sanghas themselves truly realized beings? How can someone who has not reached the destination himself or herself take you there? That’s something to consider, and why an established lineage matters.
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Re: How to know if a Dharma Center is a "Sangha" or "official"?

Post by seeker242 »

Padmist wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 7:33 pm

Is this Dharma Center a valid tradition or sangha? (officially part of a lineage)

http://www.skycreekdharmacenter.org/about-us/

From the webpage:
"Slowly Ripening Sangha practices Zen Buddhism in the tradition of the Vietnamese monk, scholar, author and poet Thich Nhat Hanh. It is affiliated with the Order of Interbeing and its hundreds of sanghas throughout the world."


Order of Interbeing is the sect that Thich Nhat Hanh founded. It's certainly legitimate. Other groups using the same building doesn't invalidate that.
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Re: How to know if a Dharma Center is a "Sangha" or "official"?

Post by zerwe »

Padmist wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 8:23 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 7:46 pm Of course not, do you really not know this, or are you just asking rhetorically?
I do not know this. I'm looking for some kind of structure, an official connection to a lineage or tradition, as some kind of official, authorized "branch", "local temple", directed, managed, operated, officiated, recognized, by a central body or authority.

For example, Shantideva NYC is not merely a local group on its own. It is an FPMT affiliate or group. Another example, is if one Dharma Center in a State decided to install electric mosquito zappers, the central body/authority could shun the practice and make an official declaration that they are cutting ties with this dharma center.

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 7:46 pm Of course. Teachers become teachers by having disciples, basically. I mean of course in Vajrayana and some other traditions there are quite specific qualifications to be a teacher, but for basic Buddhist teachings of course there are groups which are informal and have no structure, and are often led by senior students. Even some established Vajrayana and Bon groups quite often the main teacher is traveling and visits maybe once per year, and even in larger institutions like monasteries, there are plenty of situations where senior students lead practices, even though they are not teachers per se.
I did not know this. Thanks.



No idea, ask them, find out for yourself.

I mean, it tells their story on the first page and they bill themselves as "a place to meditate".

Whether or not it's "valid" would be a matter of some debate depending on who you are, but they seem to be quite transparent about the origin of the center and are not even claiming some sort of official lineage.

Might not be everyone's bag but seems as "valid" as any other small practice group to me, and I'm not sure I understand the point of the line of questioning, since your questions are answered on the very web page you are posting. In short, it seems to clearly be a group of eclectic practitioners, and they pretty much say so.
Thanks. So I think in this case, the "vinaya" lineage wouldn't be present eh? I mean it cannot be said that this group has the Dharmaguptaka vinaya guiding their "clergy" (which is not present in the first place).
In most cases it should be relatively easy to investigate an organization's affiliation with a lineage or not and you already have alluded to FPMT and Shantideva center.

There are layers of meaning to the word "Sangha." I can't remember, but technically a group would have at least 3 ordained to qualify. The term "Sangha" gets thrown around a lot and, in the west people consider a group of dharma brothers and sisters to be a "Sangha," but this is not the true meaning of the word.

Another consideration with the term "Sangha," is the actual Sangha refuge. This is made up of Arya beings. While, I don't have the ability to see another's mind, I feel that most "Sangha" do not meet this criteria.

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Re: How to know if a Dharma Center is a "Sangha" or "official"?

Post by Malcolm »

zerwe wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:36 pm
There are layers of meaning to the word "Sangha." I can't remember, but technically a group would have at least 3 ordained to qualify.
This refers only to a monastic Sangha.
The term "Sangha" gets thrown around a lot and, in the west people consider a group of dharma brothers and sisters to be a "Sangha," but this is not the true meaning of the word.
Of course it is.

saMgha m. (fr. %{sam} + %{han}) `" close contact or combination "' , any collection or assemblage , heap , multitude , quantity , crowd , host , number (generally with gen. pl. or ifc. , e.g. %{muni-s-} , `" a multitude of sages "' BhP. ; %{zatru-s-} , a host of enemies Ra1jat.) MBh. Ka1v. &c. ; any number of people living together for a certain purpose , a society , association , company , community ; a clerical community , congregation , church Mn. Sa1h. &c. ; (esp.) the whole community or collective body or brotherhood of monks (with Buddhists ; also applied to a monkish fraternity or sect among Jainas) Buddh. Sarvad. MWB. 176.
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Re: How to know if a Dharma Center is a "Sangha" or "official"?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Padmist wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 8:23 pm

I do not know this. I'm looking for some kind of structure, an official connection to a lineage or tradition, as some kind of official, authorized "branch", "local temple", directed, managed, operated, officiated, recognized, by a central body or authority.

For example, Shantideva NYC is not merely a local group on its own. It is an FPMT affiliate or group. Another example, is if one Dharma Center in a State decided to install electric mosquito zappers, the central body/authority could shun the practice and make an official declaration that they are cutting ties with this dharma center.
That's a very rose colored view of things. Even different locations within the same lineage and recognized, eminently qualified teachers often have very different ways of operating, in my experience.


Thanks. So I think in this case, the "vinaya" lineage wouldn't be present eh? I mean it cannot be said that this group has the Dharmaguptaka vinaya guiding their "clergy" (which is not present in the first place).
No, but they aren't claiming anything like that, so I'm not sure I understand the relevance of the question. The literally state on the home page that it is an eclectic group of practitioners and even mention who they influenced by. I don't know how much IRL Dharma center experience you have, but this isn't uncommon - even among groups with notable teachers. For instance, I used to practice (pre pandemic) with a group of Tenzin Wanyal's students. TWR came to our town about once a year. They loosely followed a program of study based on his stuff, and had a focus, but of course there was no "teacher" as such other than him.

Garchen Rinpoche has centers I've been to with no formal teacher than senior students, a difference among how things are between groups, etc. Things are just not that uniform, for better or worse.

There are lots of smaller meditation-oriented informal groups like this, some have centers, some meet in people's houses, etc.

It's a kind of "Dharma club" sort of thing. As far as notions of quality, I personally think that newer students who are serious about study are probably better off at centers with formal teachers and programs. I do think however that people with a few years under their belt with coherent instructions can be more independent and benefit, and at that point might very well benefit from participating in this kind of group.

Again though, they are very transparent about what they are, near as I can tell. So, you can read their description and know whether or not it would benefit you. It wouldn't be my cup of tea personally, but I can see others benefiting from it.

At one time I would have been reflexively critical of this kind of group, but I have learned over the years that that is largely my own problem, and my own assumptions at play.

Anyway, spiritual friendship among peers is important in my opinion. It can get under emphasized in traditions like Zen and Vajrayana where the teacher is so central, and there are definite caveats and danger zones, but there is the possibility of growth from those kind of relationships too.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Re: How to know if a Dharma Center is a "Sangha" or "official"?

Post by Leo Rivers »

For 20 years I was part of a local center to which a Lama appointed a Lama who was paid and housed by funds from the central center [ours was in Redding CA], so to speak. I live in Cottage Grove Oregon. A center started in 1982.

In this system the local volunteer group runs the center, raises money for Lama visits and public activities until they 'graduated' to having a resident Lama appointed for them. This means the 'group' 5-8 people grows to 20-30 usually.

Having a resident Lama made you official, funds flowed both ways rather than just one way to the central center to fund the home monastery, the young tulkus and such.

I will go to a joke shop and buy a 8-Ball filled with ink and fortune cookie wisdom before doing 'the center' thing again.
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