What exactly is it that leads to Enlightenment? (arhat and buddhahood)

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
Nalanda
Posts: 646
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:35 am

What exactly is it that leads to Enlightenment? (arhat and buddhahood)

Post by Nalanda »

I understand that practices matter from prostrations, poetry, mantra, memorization, chanting, worshipping, etc. are important. I get that. I understand that moral ethics are vital.

(1) Would you say that these are contributing factors that lead to enlightenment or they themselves on their own can lead to enlightenment?

(2) If they only contribute to enlightenment, then is it fair to say that what actually/really leads to Enlightenment is the meditation practice itself?

(3) And if so, which one? Any or a specific one? (Vipassana? Dzogchen? Mahamudra? Zen? Shamatha?)
IF YOU PRACTICE WITH A STRONG BELIEF IN WHAT
YOU ARE DOING, THEN THERE IS NO LIMIT TO WHAT
YOU CAN ACCOMPLISH WITH YOUR PRACTICE.

CHAKUNG JIGME WANGDRAK RINPOCHE

Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: What exactly is it that leads to Enlightenment? (arhat and buddhahood)

Post by Malcolm »

Nalanda wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 7:01 pm What exactly is it that leads to Enlightenment? (arhat and buddhahood)
A guru.
Nalanda
Posts: 646
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:35 am

Re: What exactly is it that leads to Enlightenment? (arhat and buddhahood)

Post by Nalanda »

I'm sold, teacher. I'm sold. But some teacher don't accept any more students. :pig:
IF YOU PRACTICE WITH A STRONG BELIEF IN WHAT
YOU ARE DOING, THEN THERE IS NO LIMIT TO WHAT
YOU CAN ACCOMPLISH WITH YOUR PRACTICE.

CHAKUNG JIGME WANGDRAK RINPOCHE

Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: What exactly is it that leads to Enlightenment? (arhat and buddhahood)

Post by Malcolm »

Nalanda wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:33 pm I'm sold, teacher. I'm sold. But some teacher don't accept any more students. :pig:
There are many good teachers out there. But you have a lot of learn just about General Buddhadharma to begin with. It's better to make a connection with a principle lineage, and then when you know what you are doing, continue from there.

I do not recommend connection with rando teachers on the internet.

Making a connection with a guru is serious business and many so-called teachers presenting themselves as as so-called gurus have concocted or exaggerated credentials. Nor do they have any idea how to care for their students. Being a teacher is a serious responsibility, as is being a student.

So one has to be discerning in the beginning. You have to be like a bee, and see which teachers and lineages resonate, and then investigate them, and see what faults and qualities they have. What you do not need is an old fraud like me.
User avatar
Ayu
Global Moderator
Posts: 13254
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:25 am
Location: Europe

Re: What exactly is it that leads to Enlightenment? (arhat and buddhahood)

Post by Ayu »

Nalanda wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:33 pm I'm sold, teacher. I'm sold. But some teacher don't accept any more students.
Meeting new students online is a difficult task. In pre covid times, most lamas rejected the idea of online relationships to students. Online studying increased only due to the demands of the pandemic.
As soon as these crazy times settled, you hopefully will be able to meet your new teacher in solid meatspace. There is no substitute for meeting a teacher in person.
Nalanda
Posts: 646
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:35 am

Re: What exactly is it that leads to Enlightenment? (arhat and buddhahood)

Post by Nalanda »


Malcolm:
There are many good teachers out there. But you have a lot of learn just about General Buddhadharma to begin with. It's better to make a connection with a principle lineage, and then when you know what you are doing, continue from there.

I do not recommend connection with rando teachers on the internet.

Making a connection with a guru is serious business and many so-called teachers presenting themselves as as so-called gurus have concocted or exaggerated credentials. Nor do they have any idea how to care for their students. Being a teacher is a serious responsibility, as is being a student.

So one has to be discerning in the beginning. You have to be like a bee, and see which teachers and lineages resonate, and then investigate them, and see what faults and qualities they have. What you do not need is an old fraud like me.


Good advice. I'm with:

Tergar + FPMT + Khenpo Sherab Sangpo (Bodhicitta Sangha) + Self Study

Maybe a couple of years or 5, I will be good for a teacher.
IF YOU PRACTICE WITH A STRONG BELIEF IN WHAT
YOU ARE DOING, THEN THERE IS NO LIMIT TO WHAT
YOU CAN ACCOMPLISH WITH YOUR PRACTICE.

CHAKUNG JIGME WANGDRAK RINPOCHE

pemachophel
Posts: 2228
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 9:19 pm
Location: Lafayette, CO

Re: What exactly is it that leads to Enlightenment? (arhat and buddhahood)

Post by pemachophel »

"Nor do they have any idea how to care for their students."

Unfortunately, this is all too often the case.

"As soon as these crazy times settled, you hopefully will be able to meet your new teacher in solid meatspace. There is no substitute for meeting a teacher in person."

I certainly hope that there will be less on-line teaching and studying the Dharma at some point in the not-too-distant future. While there have been a number of great opportunities and blessings via the Internet these last two years, overall, based on my interactions with students, both live and on-line, I think there are a lot of problems -- follow-up being a major one. So many newbies are out there "stamp collecting" with no real idea of what they are doing.

I wholeheartedly agree with Loppon's answer that the Guru is the key to the whole matter.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 9437
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: What exactly is it that leads to Enlightenment? (arhat and buddhahood)

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Nalanda wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 7:01 pm I understand that practices matter from prostrations, poetry, mantra, memorization, chanting, worshipping, etc. are important. I get that. I understand that moral ethics are vital.

(1) Would you say that these are contributing factors that lead to enlightenment or they themselves on their own can lead to enlightenment?

(2) If they only contribute to enlightenment, then is it fair to say that what actually/really leads to Enlightenment is the meditation practice itself?

(3) And if so, which one? Any or a specific one? (Vipassana? Dzogchen? Mahamudra? Zen? Shamatha?)
All these tools, and more, are just that. Tools. There are some who think that doing all of the different practices is like following a recipe to make cookies. Do this and this and this and you can’t fail. But it isn’t like that. These are tools that give you the opportunity to develop qualities (compassion, wisdom, generosity. Mindfulness, etc) but you have to apply motivation and effort.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Nalanda
Posts: 646
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:35 am

Re: What exactly is it that leads to Enlightenment? (arhat and buddhahood)

Post by Nalanda »

So what is it that actually brings about enlightenment in someone?
IF YOU PRACTICE WITH A STRONG BELIEF IN WHAT
YOU ARE DOING, THEN THERE IS NO LIMIT TO WHAT
YOU CAN ACCOMPLISH WITH YOUR PRACTICE.

CHAKUNG JIGME WANGDRAK RINPOCHE

Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: What exactly is it that leads to Enlightenment? (arhat and buddhahood)

Post by Malcolm »

Nalanda wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:08 am So what is it that actually brings about enlightenment in someone?
Insight.
Miorita
Posts: 1069
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2022 11:37 pm
Location: US

Re: What exactly is it that leads to Enlightenment? (arhat and buddhahood)

Post by Miorita »

Nalanda wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:08 am So what is it that actually brings about enlightenment in someone?
The texts say that the aspirations made by Samantabhadra determine the beings in samsara to evolve. It may also be that each empowerment taken meant to renew the aspiration, the commitment made, as Malcolm once said it, brings you closer to an enlightened condition.
You put yourself to work and results will show.
Karma is not something that happens all of a sudden, though there are violent instances sometimes. Karma is like buds showing up timidly on a shell.

[.JPG invalid]

You see the wrapping going around and around to the end product - rays tossed away from the center into the wrapping as protuberances which are visible from even the first wrapping.

What I mean to say is that if you want to know what you have been before, it is enough to look at yourself in a mirror and you will know that what you see, is the result of past karma. If you want to know what is in the future, you need look no further - It stems from what you see now.

:anjali:
Miorita
Nalanda
Posts: 646
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:35 am

Re: What exactly is it that leads to Enlightenment? (arhat and buddhahood)

Post by Nalanda »

So Vipassanā. The meditation the Buddha invented. Wouldn't make sense to focus on JUST that?
IF YOU PRACTICE WITH A STRONG BELIEF IN WHAT
YOU ARE DOING, THEN THERE IS NO LIMIT TO WHAT
YOU CAN ACCOMPLISH WITH YOUR PRACTICE.

CHAKUNG JIGME WANGDRAK RINPOCHE

muni
Posts: 5559
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: What exactly is it that leads to Enlightenment? (arhat and buddhahood)

Post by muni »

We need a mind that is ready to receive.
We need an awaken master.

You could study first said H H Dalai Lama, then pray to find a teacher connecting you. When we study first, it is perhaps easier to recognize the teaching by the appearing masters. I think as well our respect must be there, an open mind, knowing their nature of mind is representing our nature like it is.

Insight, as said. And by that method. Like Compassion and love. This is not love as we know it, being attachment, but learn how to embrace everyone like they appear/are. This is freeing.

But I can only tell my dream figures in my dream how to awaken.
User avatar
seeker242
Posts: 2092
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:50 pm
Location: South Florida, USA

Re: What exactly is it that leads to Enlightenment? (arhat and buddhahood)

Post by seeker242 »

Nalanda wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:25 am So Vipassanā. The meditation the Buddha invented. Wouldn't make sense to focus on JUST that?
If it did make sense, then wouldn't the Buddha have taught JUST that?
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
User avatar
Aemilius
Posts: 4604
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:44 am

Re: What exactly is it that leads to Enlightenment? (arhat and buddhahood)

Post by Aemilius »

Nirvana is uncaused, uncompounded, unarisen, it cannot be brought about by causes.
Hindrances can be worn away, like the ropes that are rotted away in the simile of the ocean going ship (Nava sutta).
What appears has been there, in front of one's eyes, to begin with.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
User avatar
SkyFox
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:29 pm

Re: What exactly is it that leads to Enlightenment? (arhat and buddhahood)

Post by SkyFox »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:10 am
Nalanda wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 7:01 pm I understand that practices matter from prostrations, poetry, mantra, memorization, chanting, worshipping, etc. are important. I get that. I understand that moral ethics are vital.

(1) Would you say that these are contributing factors that lead to enlightenment or they themselves on their own can lead to enlightenment?

(2) If they only contribute to enlightenment, then is it fair to say that what actually/really leads to Enlightenment is the meditation practice itself?

(3) And if so, which one? Any or a specific one? (Vipassana? Dzogchen? Mahamudra? Zen? Shamatha?)
All these tools, and more, are just that. Tools. There are some who think that doing all of the different practices is like following a recipe to make cookies. Do this and this and this and you can’t fail. But it isn’t like that. These are tools that give you the opportunity to develop qualities (compassion, wisdom, generosity. Mindfulness, etc) but you have to apply motivation and effort.
:good:

This post really speaks to me. Many Vietnamese people view the Buddhist temples as a tool to free them from their negative Karma and bring them good luck, so they would make many trips every year. But when they leave the premise of the temple, they instantly revert back. They don't realize that a temple cannot change anything unless the motivation and effort is there. Truly a waste of a life not to develop those qualities( compassion, wisdom, generosity, ect..) while we still have the teachings of the Buddha. Who knows how many more life times we might have to wait in order to run into it again?

My step grandmother loves to go to temples and do all these fancy rituals but still insist on raising animals to slaughter; she seems to think that the simple act of praying will somehow bring her good karma.
Nalanda
Posts: 646
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:35 am

Re: What exactly is it that leads to Enlightenment? (arhat and buddhahood)

Post by Nalanda »

ConfusedOne wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 8:17 am This post really speaks to me. Many Vietnamese people view the Buddhist temples as a tool to free them from their negative Karma and bring them good luck, so they would make many trips every year. But when they leave the premise of the temple, they instantly revert back. They don't realize that a temple cannot change anything unless the motivation and effort is there. Truly a waste of a life not to develop those qualities( compassion, wisdom, generosity, ect..) while we still have the teachings of the Buddha. Who knows how many more life times we might have to wait in order to run into it again?
We don't have to talk this way about these people. What they are doing is not nothing or a waste. There is a lot of merit activities going on there that would translate to favorable life in this life and in the next life. It's great to be in a position we have to think about these things and practice higher/better practices. But for these people, that's what they can do for now, and what they can do is good enough, perhaps of higher effort/loss on their part. Their practice is valid and shouldn't be minimized this way.
IF YOU PRACTICE WITH A STRONG BELIEF IN WHAT
YOU ARE DOING, THEN THERE IS NO LIMIT TO WHAT
YOU CAN ACCOMPLISH WITH YOUR PRACTICE.

CHAKUNG JIGME WANGDRAK RINPOCHE

Nalanda
Posts: 646
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:35 am

Re: What exactly is it that leads to Enlightenment? (arhat and buddhahood)

Post by Nalanda »

Miorita wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:37 am
Nalanda wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:08 am So what is it that actually brings about enlightenment in someone?
The texts say that the aspirations made by Samantabhadra determine the beings in samsara to evolve. It may also be that each empowerment taken meant to renew the aspiration, the commitment made, as Malcolm once said it, brings you closer to an enlightened condition.
You put yourself to work and results will show.
Karma is not something that happens all of a sudden, though there are violent instances sometimes. Karma is like buds showing up timidly on a shell.

[.JPG invalid]

You see the wrapping going around and around to the end product - rays tossed away from the center into the wrapping as protuberances which are visible from even the first wrapping.

What I mean to say is that if you want to know what you have been before, it is enough to look at yourself in a mirror and you will know that what you see, is the result of past karma. If you want to know what is in the future, you need look no further - It stems from what you see now.

:anjali:
Miorita

This is all abstract.

What I meant to say is what is it 'technically' that generates the enlightenment. I'm guessing it's meditation. I'm guessing it's specifically vipassana as someone pointed "Insight" above. This is accurate from the Buddha's practice/teaching. Given that we know this, I wonder if it makes a lot of sense to focus on THIS practice. If not, how does Dzogchen compare to this practice of Vipassana?
IF YOU PRACTICE WITH A STRONG BELIEF IN WHAT
YOU ARE DOING, THEN THERE IS NO LIMIT TO WHAT
YOU CAN ACCOMPLISH WITH YOUR PRACTICE.

CHAKUNG JIGME WANGDRAK RINPOCHE

amanitamusc
Posts: 2124
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:32 am

Re: What exactly is it that leads to Enlightenment? (arhat and buddhahood)

Post by amanitamusc »

Nalanda wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:14 am
Miorita wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:37 am
Nalanda wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:08 am So what is it that actually brings about enlightenment in someone?
The texts say that the aspirations made by Samantabhadra determine the beings in samsara to evolve. It may also be that each empowerment taken meant to renew the aspiration, the commitment made, as Malcolm once said it, brings you closer to an enlightened condition.
You put yourself to work and results will show.
Karma is not something that happens all of a sudden, though there are violent instances sometimes. Karma is like buds showing up timidly on a shell.

[.JPG invalid]

You see the wrapping going around and around to the end product - rays tossed away from the center into the wrapping as protuberances which are visible from even the first wrapping.

What I mean to say is that if you want to know what you have been before, it is enough to look at yourself in a mirror and you will know that what you see, is the result of past karma. If you want to know what is in the future, you need look no further - It stems from what you see now.

:anjali:
Miorita


This is all abstract.

What I meant to say is what is it 'technically' that generates the enlightenment. I'm guessing it's meditation. I'm guessing it's specifically vipassana as someone pointed "Insight" above. This is accurate from the Buddha's practice/teaching. Given that we know this, I wonder if it makes a lot of sense to focus on THIS practice. If not, how does Dzogchen compare to this practice of Vipassana?
A qualified Dzogchen teacher can answer your questions.Until then you may still be guessing.
User avatar
Aemilius
Posts: 4604
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:44 am

Re: What exactly is it that leads to Enlightenment? (arhat and buddhahood)

Post by Aemilius »

"Qualified" is an expression of the human tendency of creating hierarchies, of looking for authorities, looking for persons with impressive titles and credentials. Unfortunately the Unconditioned very often doesn't behave or manifest like that. You may find that you hear the actual truth from the mouth of a street cleaner, or some other unknown and obscure person. When that happens, don't start lying to yourself and others, that you heard it from some respected authority. I hope that you are intelligent and brave enough to avoid that downfall and dishonesty.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
Post Reply

Return to “Mahāyāna Buddhism”