Mindfulness vs Awareness

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Nicholas2727
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Mindfulness vs Awareness

Post by Nicholas2727 »

There are many Theravadin teachers as well as some Mahayana teachers who stress mindfulness practice, although I have noticed a bit of an aversion in the Tibetan traditions as well as some Zen lineages to mindfulness practice. In both of these traditions I have seen awareness stressed, although the more I hear either of these traditions talk about mindfulness or awareness, I feel they are talking about the same thing. Does anyone have any input on these or if my understanding is correct?
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Re: Mindfulness vs Awareness

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"It's easy when you're a beginner to get carried away by the content of thoughts. At this time you need mindfulness. Mindfulness is like a powerful escort, reminding you not to chase thoughts, but to let them go. After a time, when some stability is attained, that powerful escort can take a vacation. Why? Because the content of thoughts doesn't tempt you. It's easy and natural to let it go. When this stage is reached, gnas pa, 'gyu ba, and rig pa - stillness, movement, and awareness - are experienced as having merged. At that point, thoughts - far from being disturbing or distracting - are seen and felt as the display of the mind's natural beauty".

- Khenpo Tsewang Dongyal Rinpoche & Khenchen Palden Sherab Rinpoche, Vajra Sound of Peace: Practicing the Seven Chapter Prayer of Guru Padmasambhava, p. 138.
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Zhen Li
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Re: Mindfulness vs Awareness

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The foundations of mindfulness, and also the five faculties (which include mindfulness), come up a lot in Mahāyāna sūtras, but they are not given exposition, rather, it seems like it is assumed the reader/listener would already be familiar with them. So, mindfulness, in a sense, might be thought of more as a necessary prerequisite to, and a continual component part of, Mahāyāna practice, with the exception of Pure Land and Nichiren schools.

It is possible that the term mindfulness has become oversaturated due to the marketization of the term and its various understandings found in clinical psychology, that to get away from any preconceptions a practitioner might bring to the meditation cushion, teachers opt for awareness.

However, I see awareness as the action (prajānāti), whereas mindfulness is the quality endowed with that action (smṛti). So, someone who is mindful is someone who is aware of body, feelings, mind, and dharmas. "Be mindful" is unclear, even in Pali and Sanskrit. In Sanskrit, often smṛti is found along with saṃprajāna, meaning fully knowing, maybe what we would call in English being "thoughtful" (difficult since it gives the literal impression of full of thoughts) or "careful." So, to be mindful you are aware of the four foundations.

Really, this is something which is not the approach in Zen practice, but it is the inevitable outcome. That is to say, one does not begin setting out by systematically watching in-breath and out-breath, long or short, etc. (though one may), in the order you find in the Mahāsatipaṭṭhānasutta. But, one comes gradually to a full awareness that entails the four foundations. For this reason, it's not really necessary for them to be approached in the same way from scratch.
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Re: Mindfulness vs Awareness

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Nicholas2727 wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:37 am There are many Theravadin teachers as well as some Mahayana teachers who stress mindfulness practice, although I have noticed a bit of an aversion in the Tibetan traditions as well as some Zen lineages to mindfulness practice. In both of these traditions I have seen awareness stressed, although the more I hear either of these traditions talk about mindfulness or awareness, I feel they are talking about the same thing. Does anyone have any input on these or if my understanding is correct?
Mind is a sub-product of Emptiess. Mind comes out of Emptiness into a life. Every human has a active mind and dormant mind. Even if dormant mind is fully gathered ,it still is a part of Emptiness.
A normal human uses only active mind . Hence mind is limited. Every human mind as well mindfulness is limited. In meditation every human works with this limited mind which is active at a particular instant.

In a way this limited mind and limited awareness mean the same thing, Hence the use of these both words is interchangeable at our stage. But this awareness word come from Sanatan dharam and its source is beyond Emptiness. Sanatan dharam recognises Buddha system as a product of evolution from creation.Creation is the prime source. Awareness in meditation is capable of changing the creation.

If in meditation you are able to change the creation inside you than you are in awareness.(vipassana meditation).
And if in meditaton you are blank or in any other state as a final result than you are in mindfull meditation.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Mindfulness vs Awareness

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Mindfulness is a practice through which awareness develops.
Carefulness is not relying too much on English language words used to translate Buddhist concepts.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Re: Mindfulness vs Awareness

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Zhen Li wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:45 am The foundations of mindfulness, and also the five faculties (which include mindfulness), come up a lot in Mahāyāna sūtras, but they are not given exposition, rather, it seems like it is assumed the reader/listener would already be familiar with them.
Thus not true, for example, a fairly detailed description of the four foundations of mindfulness is to be found in the Bodhisattvapitaka.
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Re: Mindfulness vs Awareness

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PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:43 pm Mindfulness is a practice through which awareness develops.
Carefulness is not relying too much on English language words used to translate Buddhist concepts.
Actually, mindfulness and awareness are mutually supporting mental factors.
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Re: Mindfulness vs Awareness

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Malcolm wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:45 pm
Zhen Li wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:45 am The foundations of mindfulness, and also the five faculties (which include mindfulness), come up a lot in Mahāyāna sūtras, but they are not given exposition, rather, it seems like it is assumed the reader/listener would already be familiar with them.
Thus not true, for example, a fairly detailed description of the four foundations of mindfulness is to be found in the Bodhisattvapitaka.
Thanks for pointing that out. Is what you are thinking of inside or outside of the Dhyāna Chapter?
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Re: Mindfulness vs Awareness

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Zhen Li wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:48 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:45 pm
Zhen Li wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:45 am The foundations of mindfulness, and also the five faculties (which include mindfulness), come up a lot in Mahāyāna sūtras, but they are not given exposition, rather, it seems like it is assumed the reader/listener would already be familiar with them.
Thus not true, for example, a fairly detailed description of the four foundations of mindfulness is to be found in the Bodhisattvapitaka.
Thanks for pointing that out. Is what you are thinking of inside or outside of the Dhyāna Chapter?
I have to go look. I pulled it out the other day for a lama who was teaching on the FFM and needed an Mahayana source.
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Re: Mindfulness vs Awareness

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PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:43 pm Mindfulness is a practice through which awareness develops.
Carefulness is not relying too much on English language words used to translate Buddhist concepts.
:thanks:
Nicholas2727
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Re: Mindfulness vs Awareness

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Thank you for these replies. From the Sutra side of things are the Four Foundations of Mindfulness enough to reach enlightenment? From the Theravadin point of view its clear they are, but from a Mahayana point of view can one practice Anapanasati and Satipatthana (accompanied with Bodhicitta) and progress far along the path?

Maybe some here could suggest some early Mahayana texts to read to learn more about this as well.
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Re: Mindfulness vs Awareness

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Nicholas2727 wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:08 pm Thank you for these replies. From the Sutra side of things are the Four Foundations of Mindfulness enough to reach enlightenment? From the Theravadin point of view its clear they are, but from a Mahayana point of view can one practice Anapanasati and Satipatthana (accompanied with Bodhicitta) and progress far along the path?

Maybe some here could suggest some early Mahayana texts to read to learn more about this as well.
It can help with cultivating dhyāna pāramitā, but only in part. You would need to incorporate more prajñā pāramitā than mindfulness of the breath and four foundations alone can afford. As the Prajñāpāramitā sūtras put it, you can be "perfect" in the other five pāramitās without them being pāramitā (transcendent)—that requires prajñā. Beyond that, the Bodhisattva path requires a lot of different things. Making profound vows, giving profound offerings to buddhas, cultivating skilful means, developing great compassion, etc. One can become a very calm bodhisattva by just practising mindfulness, but not necessarily an effective one.
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Re: Mindfulness vs Awareness

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Zhen Li wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 1:07 am
Nicholas2727 wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:08 pm Thank you for these replies. From the Sutra side of things are the Four Foundations of Mindfulness enough to reach enlightenment? From the Theravadin point of view its clear they are, but from a Mahayana point of view can one practice Anapanasati and Satipatthana (accompanied with Bodhicitta) and progress far along the path?

Maybe some here could suggest some early Mahayana texts to read to learn more about this as well.
It can help with cultivating dhyāna pāramitā, but only in part. You would need to incorporate more prajñā pāramitā than mindfulness of the breath and four foundations alone can afford. As the Prajñāpāramitā sūtras put it, you can be "perfect" in the other five pāramitās without them being pāramitā (transcendent)—that requires prajñā. Beyond that, the Bodhisattva path requires a lot of different things. Making profound vows, giving profound offerings to buddhas, cultivating skilful means, developing great compassion, etc. One can become a very calm bodhisattva by just practising mindfulness, but not necessarily an effective one.
Thank you for that clarification. To be a little more specific with my question, I was wondering if mindfulness practice along with those other components can be used as the main meditation practice to progress along the path? For example in Chan the defining method seems to be Hua Tou (This is probably a major reduction of all the methods in chan but I hope you get where Im going with this) and in Vajrayana, Deity Yoga as well as Dzogchen and Mahamudra seem to be the main methods for progressing along the path (again a big generalization but I hope you get what I mean). Could someone take Anapanasati and Satipatthana as their main practices in Mahayana or is this considered a Hinayana path? I am not too knowledgeable on this but I know Thich Nhat Hanh seems to follow this approach, Venerable Dhammadipa is a Mahayana monk I am very fond of and he seems to take these practices from his Theravada days and bring them into Mahayana. There is another former Theravadin, now Mahayana monk not too far from me (Master Jiru) who focuses on Satipatthana and incorporates it with Mahayana so I am curious how accurate this is within the texts and Mahayana's history.
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Re: Mindfulness vs Awareness

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There are no components of the Śrāvakayāna path that are not also part of Mahāyāna with the exception of the conscious decision not to give rise to bodhicitta. Mindfulness makes up an important component of Buddhist practice all the way to Buddhahood, but it would not be sufficient to take you all the way there. It is something that must be present.

As you are suggesting, it is really different depending on the sect, so you might want to get into the specifics of the tradition you are following. I am a Pure Land practitioner now so I do not practice mindfulness outside of mindfulness of the Buddha. But when I practiced Chan, in terms of meditation we did no huatou and just focused on mindfulness. That is different from saying you can use mindfulness to take you all the way to Buddhahood (again, it's just one component of the dhyāna pāramitā). But anyway, what you do on a daily basis (what actually matters) is going to differ depending upon the temple, teacher, sect, etc.

As for historical approaches in Mahāyāna, and the sūtras, no—mindfulness is not the core of Mahāyāna Buddhist meditation, that would be samādhi that orients around prajñāpāramitā, thusness, and emptiness (might be more along the lines of what we see in contemporary Sōtō-shū or Dzogchen), along with mindfulness of the buddha and buddha-fields. Śūraṅgama Samādhi might be a good place to start. Like I suggested before, mindfulness is more of a by-product of these practices. I found practicing shikantaza that mindfulness emerged much faster than when I consciously did Satipatthana in the Theravāda way. Even practicing mindfulness of the Buddha allows for these qualities to emerge. So, starting from mindfulness, in my opinion, is kind of a modernist approach (maybe it gets people in the door), and might not be the most effective way to actually have mindfulness. The point with Mahāyāna/Vajrayāna practice, in my opinion, is that it is practising effect (Buddha-nature), rather than cause. Śrāvakayāna is based on causal logic: I do X to get Y. Mahāyāna is practising: there is no X, therefore there was Y all along.
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Re: Mindfulness vs Awareness

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Nicholas2727 wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:50 am
Thank you for these replies. From the Sutra side of things are the Four Foundations of Mindfulness enough to reach enlightenment?

Maybe some here could suggest some early Mahayana texts to read to learn more about this as well.
All of Mahayana agrees that there are the five paths to buddhahood which comprise the thirty seven bodhipakshikadharmas (which are equivalent to the Hinayana bodhipakkhiyadhamma) and are all linked in with the 10 bodhisattva bhumis.

1. Accumulation,sambhāramārga
2. Joining, prayogamārga
3. Seeing, darśanamārga
4. Meditation, bhāvanāmārga
5. No-more-learning, aśaikṣamārga

Of the 37 bodhipakshikadharmas, the first 4 are mindfulnesses (of body, feelings, mind and phenomena); the third of the five faculties is mindfulness; the third of the five powers is mindfulness; the first of the saptabodhyanga is mindfulness; and 7th of the eightfold path of Aryas is right mindfulness (the 8th is samadhi). The eightfold path of Aryas is sometimes said to be attained by bodhisattvas when they get on the path of meditation, which is from the 2nd bhumi upwards. This system can be found in all the Mahayana sutras from the 2nd turning Middle Way/Perfection of Wisdom sutras to the 3rd turning Buddha nature/Yogacara - for example the Samdhinirmocana Sutra treats of it, noting in chapter four how all 37 bodhipakshikas must be united in "one taste of thusness" - and even in Anuttarayoga tantras such as the Samputodbhava and elsewhere meaning that there is a sound hermeneutic concerning the formal path throughout the entire conventional Indian Buddhism from basic Buddhism to highest tantra. Outside of these mindfulnesses there are the four right exertions, four bases of magic, the faculties and powers (one each of which is mindfulness), the other 6 bodhyangas, and the other 7 limbs of the eightfold path of Aryas. Therefore, mindfulness cannot be said to constitute the whole path - although it may or may not be significant that of the 37 bodhipakshika dharmas, the first 4, and the second to last, are mindfulness, meaning in a way that the whole path is almost bookended by mindfulness. Again, chapter 4 of Samdhinirmocana Sutra (in the Wisdom of Buddha translation by John Powers it is Chapter 4, but the chapters are different in the other translations; it is the one focused on Subhuti) covers it in some detail. In fact, therein the Buddha appears to say that the goal is to transcend, sublimate or purify them all together (see page 59 of Powers, Wisdom of Buddha). Even though rig pa or awareness is not mentioned in this literature, perhaps this one taste of suchness taught by Buddha here is something like the rig pa awareness of the higher teachings.
Last edited by Ode to Joy on Tue Dec 07, 2021 7:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mindfulness vs Awareness

Post by Dream_on »

Here is a sutta that deals with mindfulness. The Satipattana sutta.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... wayof.html


To read it and follow its instructions is just a way to develop mindfulness.

I have not read the sutta in its content myself. But know a littel about

meditation as a practis. I have practised "buddhism" for some years as a "lay person".
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Re: Mindfulness vs Awareness

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Nicholas2727 wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:37 am There are many Theravadin teachers as well as some Mahayana teachers who stress mindfulness practice, although I have noticed a bit of an aversion in the Tibetan traditions as well as some Zen lineages to mindfulness practice. In both of these traditions I have seen awareness stressed, although the more I hear either of these traditions talk about mindfulness or awareness, I feel they are talking about the same thing. Does anyone have any input on these or if my understanding is correct?
It depends on the tradition as each tradition tends to translate these terms differently. Maybe it depends on what you mean by "mindfulness."

In Chan, I think it's the same. mindfulness 念 (ch. nian) and awareness 決知 (ch. juezhi).

In Theravada, I think mindfulness (pali: sati) is often talking about awareness, but sometimes in context of traditional practices such as mindfulness of the Buddha, the Dharma or the Sangha. You might get an in depth response from the Theravada tradition at dhammawheel.com.

In Tibetan Buddhism, there is often a distinction made between mindfulness དྲན་པ་ (tib. drenpa) and awareness ཤེས་བཞིན་ (tib. shes bzhin). They might be taught in the context of mental factors (abhidharma), shamatha and vipashyana meditation or remembering the teachings (mindfulness) and not wandering off (awareness). I think there might also be some difference between how different lineages understand mindfulness, possibly coming from different perspectives such as mahamudra, deity yoga, sutrayana...

As for the aversion you mention... could it be they are averse to the secular mindfulness movement?
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Re: Mindfulness vs Awareness

Post by Malcolm »

Ode to Joy wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 7:35 am Even though rig pa or awareness is not mentioned in this literature, perhaps this one taste of suchness taught by Buddha here is something like the rig pa awareness of the higher teachings.
Rig pa (vidyā) is a path dharma, and it exists in practitioners below the path of seeing, so no, it is not the "one taste of suchness," at least not in the beginning.
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Re: Mindfulness vs Awareness

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SilenceMonkey wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:29 pm Maybe it depends on what you mean by "mindfulness."

.. such as mindfulness of the Buddha, the Dharma or the Sangha. You might get an in depth response from the Theravada tradition at dhammawheel.com.

In Tibetan Buddhism, there is often a distinction made between mindfulness དྲན་པ་ (tib. drenpa) and awareness ཤེས་བཞིན་ (tib. shes bzhin). They might be taught in the context of mental factors (abhidharma), shamatha and vipashyana meditation or remembering the teachings (mindfulness) and not wandering off (awareness). I think there might also be some difference between how different lineages understand mindfulness, possibly coming from different perspectives such as mahamudra, deity yoga, sutrayana...

As for the aversion you mention... could it be they are averse to the secular mindfulness movement?
Underlining mine ...
dran pa has actually two sets of meanings and the use of mindfullness dosen't fit both
one meaning is mainly remembering / keeping in mind (the qualities of the Triratna, etc..., but also the specific meditation one received
mindfullness as "not wandering off" is better rendered in French by "attention", as keeping oneself alert (in English, like in "attention deficit disorder" or in "attention span", this has to do with clarity
Highly competent karma-kagyü meditation masters, after clarification were giving "attention" a preference.Some French translators prefered not.

As for "secular mindfulness", to me, an old Asian hand, I quite understand those who see this is as a sort imperialist practice, pilfering Buddhadharma for various purposes (In France some groups are clearly business ventures) or, in an Asian context, a process of willfull deculturation (anyway a result of imperialism, self-deprecation) even if now Western imperialism has new forms (inclusive of course!)
"Me and the sky don't hold views - Me and the river have no fixed practice
Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
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Re: Mindfulness vs Awareness

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A typical criticism of mindfulness, even in the Theravada context, is that it reinforces the subject-object distinction.
Nicholas2727 wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:37 am There are many Theravadin teachers as well as some Mahayana teachers who stress mindfulness practice, although I have noticed a bit of an aversion in the Tibetan traditions as well as some Zen lineages to mindfulness practice. In both of these traditions I have seen awareness stressed, although the more I hear either of these traditions talk about mindfulness or awareness, I feel they are talking about the same thing. Does anyone have any input on these or if my understanding is correct?
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