Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

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Varis
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

Post by Varis »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:00 pm I think “self-power” was the accepted common understanding up until Shinran Shonin (or perhaps Honin) introduced the idea of other-power, and that the emphasis (or insistence) on other-power is specifically what made (and makes) Jodo Shin Buddhism different from other schools.
Other-power came later, somewhat challenging the interpretation of the Amitabha Sutra as held by the self-power traditions.
There were Korean antecedents to Shinran who made the same argument and he quotes them in his writings.
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

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The distinction of the heroic path (of self power) and the easy path (of other power) was made already by Nagarjuna, and probably even before him.
Nagarjuna's Discourse on the Ten Stages, Dasabhumika Vibhasa, translation and study by Hisao Inagaki, contains a discussion about the career of the Bodhisattva.
In this work Nagarjuna says that the manly, hard and heroic path does not seek to attain rebirth in the realms of other Buddhas.
Nagarjuna calls the path of faith an easy path and a cowardly path, before he finally teaches it.
A better and heroic path is to practice Bodhisattva deeds in the six realms, Nagarjuna says.
svaha
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

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Aemilius wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:46 am The distinction of the heroic path (of self power) and the easy path (of other power) was made already by Nagarjuna, and probably even before him.
Nagarjuna's Discourse on the Ten Stages, Dasabhumika Vibhasa, translation and study by Hisao Inagaki, contains a discussion about the career of the Bodhisattva.
In this work Nagarjuna says that the manly, hard and heroic path does not seek to attain rebirth in the realms of other Buddhas.
Nagarjuna calls the path of faith an easy path and a cowardly path, before he finally teaches it.
A better and heroic path is to practice Bodhisattva deeds in the six realms, Nagarjuna says.
Fascinating

I wonder if Pure Land authors ever addressed these passages
It is quite impossible to find the Buddha anywhere other than in one's own mind.
A person who is ignorant of this may seek externally,
but how is it possible to find oneself through seeking anywhere other than in oneself?
Someone who seeks their own nature externally is like a fool who, giving a performance in the middle of a crowd, forgets who he is and then seeks everywhere else to find himself.
— Padmasambhava

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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

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Aemilius wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:46 am The distinction of the heroic path (of self power) and the easy path (of other power) was made already by Nagarjuna, and probably even before him.
Nagarjuna's Discourse on the Ten Stages, Dasabhumika Vibhasa, translation and study by Hisao Inagaki, contains a discussion about the career of the Bodhisattva.
In this work Nagarjuna says that the manly, hard and heroic path does not seek to attain rebirth in the realms of other Buddhas.
Nagarjuna calls the path of faith an easy path and a cowardly path, before he finally teaches it.
A better and heroic path is to practice Bodhisattva deeds in the six realms, Nagarjuna says.
For the path of the brave, if one has reached a Bodhisattva stage in this human lifetime that’s no longer taking rebirth by ignorance.

The path of Pure Land, one can take rebirth after this human life in Pure Land and will quickly advance towards final Bodhisattva stage and at which point they are capable of returning to samsara.

Slow or quick depends on the individual.
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

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Javierfv1212 wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:30 pmFascinating

I wonder if Pure Land authors ever addressed these passages
In his Senchakushu, Honen Shonin quoted a passage from Master T'an-Luan:
To begin with Dharma Master T’an-luan, we see that he stated in his Commentary on the Treatise on Rebirth in the Pure Land:

Let us reverently reflect on what the Bodhisattva Nagarjuna said in his Treatise Explaining the Ten Stages. He declared that there are two paths by which the Bodhisattvas may seek the Stage of Non-Retrogression: one is the Way of Difficult Practice and the other is the Way of Easy Practice.

The Way of Difficult Practice is a way of trying to reach the Stage of Non-Retrogression in an Age of the Five Defilements when no Buddha dwells in the world. This is difficult to do. This difficulty takes many forms and I should like to mention a few of them to exemplify what I mean.

First, there is the merely apparent good of non-Buddhist teachers who bring confusion into the true Dharma of the Bodhisattva.

Second, there is the self-interest involved in the Sravaka’s discipline, which interferes with great compassion.

Third, there is the evil done without reflection, which destroys the excellent virtues of others.

Fourth, there is the result of good deeds based on deluded thinking, which corrupts pure and undefiled practice.

Fifth, there is the holding on to self power alone and not taking hold of Other Power. These are things everywhere to be seen. To follow this Way of Difficult Practice is like travelling overland on foot: it is very painful and hard.

The Way of Easy Practice is to desire Rebirth in the Pure Land only by means of faith in the Buddha. Being thus carried along by the power of the Buddha’s Vows, we shall be able to attain Rebirth in the Pure Land. The Buddha’s power will sustain us and enable us to enter into the company of those who have attained the Stage of Genuine Assurance of the Mahayana. This is the Stage of Non-Retrogression. It is like taking passage on a ship and sailing over the sea: it is very pleasant.
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

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“If, When I am to attain Buddhahood, all the Bodhisattvas…”

https://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/ ... 20vows.pdf

There are numerous vows pertaining to that, so Amitabha Buddha does support all the Bodhisattvas.

It might not be just self power alone for the path of difficult. In fact, there was never a self power path. Other power is the actual ability of Amitabha Buddha to deliver all those Bodhisattvas.
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

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LastLegend wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:32 pm
Aemilius wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:46 am The distinction of the heroic path (of self power) and the easy path (of other power) was made already by Nagarjuna, and probably even before him.
Nagarjuna's Discourse on the Ten Stages, Dasabhumika Vibhasa, translation and study by Hisao Inagaki, contains a discussion about the career of the Bodhisattva.
In this work Nagarjuna says that the manly, hard and heroic path does not seek to attain rebirth in the realms of other Buddhas.
Nagarjuna calls the path of faith an easy path and a cowardly path, before he finally teaches it.
A better and heroic path is to practice Bodhisattva deeds in the six realms, Nagarjuna says.
For the path of the brave, if one has reached a Bodhisattva stage in this human lifetime that’s no longer taking rebirth by ignorance.
I am not so sure about that. There are subtle and very subtle obscurations. In the Mahayana, the path of the Ten bodhisattva stages lasts millions of years and millions of lifetimes, according to the Lotus Sutra and other Vaipulya sutras.


Lotus sutra, Chapter 7: the Illusory City

"The Buddha also teaches a parable about a group of people seeking a great treasure who are tired of their journey and wish to quit. Their guide creates a magical illusory city for them to rest in and then makes it disappear. The Buddha explains that the magic city represents the "Hinayana Nirvana", created merely as a rest stop by the Buddha, and the real treasure and ultimate goal is Buddhahood."

Chapter 8: Prophecy for Five Hundred Disciples

"Pūrṇa Maitrāyaṇī­putra is declared by the Buddha to be the supreme teacher in his saṅgha and is given a prediction of future Buddhahood (his name will be Dharmaprabhāsa). The Buddha then gives prophecies of future Buddhahood to twelve hundred arhats. The five hundred arhats who had walked out before confess that they were ignorant in the past and attached to the inferior nirvana but now they are overjoyed since they have faith in their future Buddhahood."
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

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Not so. The path of the brave is called so because obstacles you encounter that will make you fall back. You are constantly challenged.

15. Question: Adepts who seek the true, everlasting peace, but who only care about impermanent, base, worldly virtues and don't care about the true, everlasting, subtle virtues of Absolute Truth haven't seen the principle, and only want arouse the mind to focus on doctrines which are thought about; as soon as conscious awareness arises, it is polluted. But if one just wants to forget about the mind, this is the darkness of ignorance; it isn't in accord with the true principle either. And if one only wants to neither to stop the mind or focus on principles, this is to incorrectly grasp emptiness, and living like a beast instead of a human. When this happens, if one doesn't have any methods of concentration / insight and can't understand how to clearly see the Buddha-nature, the adept only gets befuddled - how is one to go beyond this and arrive at total nirvana? Please point out the true mind.

16. Answer: You only need to have total confidence and effective determination. Gently quiet your mind, and I will teach you once again.

You should make your own mind & body uncluttered and serene, unentangled in any objects whatsoever. Sit straight, rightly aware, and fine-tune your breath so it is well adjusted. Examine your mind to see it as neither inside nor outside nor in between. Watch it calmly, carefully and objectively; when you master this, you clearly see that the mind's consciousness moves in a flow, like a water-current or like heat waves rising without end.

When you have seen this consciousness, you find it is neither out nor in: without hurry, objectively & calmly observe it. When you master this, then melt and flux over and over, empty yet solid, profoundly stable, and then the flowing consciousness will disappear.

Those who get this consciousness to disappear will then destroy the obstructing confusions of the Bodhisattvas of the ten stages. Once this consciousness is gone, then the mind is open and still, quiet, serene and calm, perfectly pure, and enormously stable.


https://terebess.hu/zen/daman.html
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

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明安 Myoan wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:08 pm
Javierfv1212 wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:30 pmFascinating

I wonder if Pure Land authors ever addressed these passages
In his Senchakushu, Honen Shonin quoted a passage from Master T'an-Luan:
To begin with Dharma Master T’an-luan, we see that he stated in his Commentary on the Treatise on Rebirth in the Pure Land:

Let us reverently reflect on what the Bodhisattva Nagarjuna said in his Treatise Explaining the Ten Stages. He declared that there are two paths by which the Bodhisattvas may seek the Stage of Non-Retrogression: one is the Way of Difficult Practice and the other is the Way of Easy Practice.

The Way of Difficult Practice is a way of trying to reach the Stage of Non-Retrogression in an Age of the Five Defilements when no Buddha dwells in the world. This is difficult to do. This difficulty takes many forms and I should like to mention a few of them to exemplify what I mean.

First, there is the merely apparent good of non-Buddhist teachers who bring confusion into the true Dharma of the Bodhisattva.

Second, there is the self-interest involved in the Sravaka’s discipline, which interferes with great compassion.

Third, there is the evil done without reflection, which destroys the excellent virtues of others.

Fourth, there is the result of good deeds based on deluded thinking, which corrupts pure and undefiled practice.

Fifth, there is the holding on to self power alone and not taking hold of Other Power. These are things everywhere to be seen. To follow this Way of Difficult Practice is like travelling overland on foot: it is very painful and hard.

The Way of Easy Practice is to desire Rebirth in the Pure Land only by means of faith in the Buddha. Being thus carried along by the power of the Buddha’s Vows, we shall be able to attain Rebirth in the Pure Land. The Buddha’s power will sustain us and enable us to enter into the company of those who have attained the Stage of Genuine Assurance of the Mahayana. This is the Stage of Non-Retrogression. It is like taking passage on a ship and sailing over the sea: it is very pleasant.
The Jodo Shinshu approach is to say, not only is the path of sages ("brave") difficult today, but actually impossible to practice. Shinran quotes Saicho at KGSS V 80, who explains how the discipline in sūtras intended for the age of the True Dharma is not feasible in the age of Dharma decline.

The main point, at the end of the day, is that we have to discriminate provisional from definitive teachings. But, not doing this, people continue to rely on provisional teachings. As Shinran puts it, “the monks and laypeople of this latter age and the masters of these days, drowned in the concepts of "one's self-nature [being identical with Buddha]" and "[all that exists is in] one's mind," despise true Enlightenment in the Pure Land; or, deluded by self-power efforts to perform meditative and non-meditative good practices, they are ignorant of the Diamond-hard True Faith.” (KGSS III Preface) In contrast, the Primal Vow, which is the teaching applicable to all beings, especially in the age of Dharma decline.
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

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Zhen Li wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:54 am
明安 Myoan wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:08 pm
Javierfv1212 wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:30 pmFascinating

I wonder if Pure Land authors ever addressed these passages
In his Senchakushu, Honen Shonin quoted a passage from Master T'an-Luan:
To begin with Dharma Master T’an-luan, we see that he stated in his Commentary on the Treatise on Rebirth in the Pure Land:

Let us reverently reflect on what the Bodhisattva Nagarjuna said in his Treatise Explaining the Ten Stages. He declared that there are two paths by which the Bodhisattvas may seek the Stage of Non-Retrogression: one is the Way of Difficult Practice and the other is the Way of Easy Practice.

The Way of Difficult Practice is a way of trying to reach the Stage of Non-Retrogression in an Age of the Five Defilements when no Buddha dwells in the world. This is difficult to do. This difficulty takes many forms and I should like to mention a few of them to exemplify what I mean.

First, there is the merely apparent good of non-Buddhist teachers who bring confusion into the true Dharma of the Bodhisattva.

Second, there is the self-interest involved in the Sravaka’s discipline, which interferes with great compassion.

Third, there is the evil done without reflection, which destroys the excellent virtues of others.

Fourth, there is the result of good deeds based on deluded thinking, which corrupts pure and undefiled practice.

Fifth, there is the holding on to self power alone and not taking hold of Other Power. These are things everywhere to be seen. To follow this Way of Difficult Practice is like travelling overland on foot: it is very painful and hard.

The Way of Easy Practice is to desire Rebirth in the Pure Land only by means of faith in the Buddha. Being thus carried along by the power of the Buddha’s Vows, we shall be able to attain Rebirth in the Pure Land. The Buddha’s power will sustain us and enable us to enter into the company of those who have attained the Stage of Genuine Assurance of the Mahayana. This is the Stage of Non-Retrogression. It is like taking passage on a ship and sailing over the sea: it is very pleasant.
The Jodo Shinshu approach is to say, not only is the path of sages ("brave") difficult today, but actually impossible to practice. Shinran quotes Saicho at KGSS V 80, who explains how the discipline in sūtras intended for the age of the True Dharma is not feasible in the age of Dharma decline.

The main point, at the end of the day, is that we have to discriminate provisional from definitive teachings. But, not doing this, people continue to rely on provisional teachings. As Shinran puts it, “the monks and laypeople of this latter age and the masters of these days, drowned in the concepts of "one's self-nature [being identical with Buddha]" and "[all that exists is in] one's mind," despise true Enlightenment in the Pure Land; or, deluded by self-power efforts to perform meditative and non-meditative good practices, they are ignorant of the Diamond-hard True Faith.” (KGSS III Preface) In contrast, the Primal Vow, which is the teaching applicable to all beings, especially in the age of Dharma decline.
Pure Land meditation practice or meditation practice on Amitabha is a super practice. It’s utilizing the Power of Amitabha to purify one’s karma.

It’s rare but not impossible. I would not undermine the Bodhisattva path. Especially those with genuine aspirations their path is guided by Buddhas whether they know it or not. I am not sure if this is considered self-power. I don’t think so. The case you are talking about perhaps just for regular practitioners with no vows.
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

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LastLegend wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:08 am Pure Land meditation practice or meditation practice on Amitabha is a super practice. It’s utilizing the Power of Amitabha to purify one’s karma.

It’s rare but not impossible. I would not undermine the Bodhisattva path. Especially those with genuine aspirations their path is guided by Buddhas whether they know it or not. I am not sure if this is considered self-power. I don’t think so. The case you are talking about perhaps just for regular practitioners with no vows.
Everyone's karma is their own and they must follow where their conditions lead them. I don't think that Jōdo Shinshū is suitable for everyone, and if it became too popular, we would rightly be suspicious about what is going on.

But I encourage people to engage in reflection on the provisional and definitive. Look at what is achievable based on your own experience, observations, and your readings of the sūtras. While everyone is guided by buddhas, they still have to be open to and listen to them/notice them, and read the sūtras. More people end up making vows and going onto courses of practice out of their karma and conditions. This is just the nature of things.

As for possibility and impossibility, as Shinran points out, we have to admit that at the ends of their lives, even practitioners of the Vajrayāna depend on birth in the Pure Land. But of those who engage in sundry practices while trying to attain birth, rather than single-practice, Shandao suggests that maybe one or two in a hundred, three or four in a thousand might obtain birth, but those who focus on single practice attain birth a hundred in a hundred, thousand in a thousand. Nichiren actually also quotes Saicho's Mappō Tōmyōki, and suggests that not one in ten thousand can attain the Way in the age of Dharma decline.

But I don't think people can be convinced of this if their conditions are not suitable.
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

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Zhen Li wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:12 am
LastLegend wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:08 am Pure Land meditation practice or meditation practice on Amitabha is a super practice. It’s utilizing the Power of Amitabha to purify one’s karma.

It’s rare but not impossible. I would not undermine the Bodhisattva path. Especially those with genuine aspirations their path is guided by Buddhas whether they know it or not. I am not sure if this is considered self-power. I don’t think so. The case you are talking about perhaps just for regular practitioners with no vows.
Everyone's karma is their own and they must follow where their conditions lead them. I don't think that Jōdo Shinshū is suitable for everyone, and if it became too popular, we would rightly be suspicious about what is going on.

But I encourage people to engage in reflection on the provisional and definitive. Look at what is achievable based on your own experience, observations, and your readings of the sūtras. While everyone is guided by buddhas, they still have to be open to and listen to them/notice them, and read the sūtras. More people end up making vows and going onto courses of practice out of their karma and conditions. This is just the nature of things.

As for possibility and impossibility, as Shinran points out, we have to admit that at the ends of their lives, even practitioners of the Vajrayāna depend on birth in the Pure Land. But of those who engage in sundry practices while trying to attain birth, rather than single-practice, Shandao suggests that maybe one or two in a hundred, three or four in a thousand might obtain birth, but those who focus on single practice attain birth a hundred in a hundred, thousand in a thousand. Nichiren actually also quotes Saicho's Mappō Tōmyōki, and suggests that not one in ten thousand can attain the Way in the age of Dharma decline.

But I don't think people can be convinced of this if their conditions are not suitable.
On the definitive note of Diamond Faith, as the definitive teaching for all Bodhisattvas. The sooner they will be awakened to final stage the sooner they know this definitive teaching. But believe it or not there have been awakened to the final stage and they realized it was never a self power path all along. I would not say by their own effort alone. All Upaya like in Lotus Sutra: the Buddha wanted them to get of the house but they keep refusing so he give them three carts (provisional). But most sentient beings won’t accept that. Especially with Amitabha he has vows to deliver Bodhisattvas. All of this makes perfect sense within context of Mahayana vehicle.
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

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With respect to being trapped in concept of self nature or emptiness, this is not the case when they are clear that the path to become a full Buddha is based on sentient beings.
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

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LastLegend wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:23 am

Those who get this consciousness to disappear will then destroy the obstructing confusions of the Bodhisattvas of the ten stages. Once this consciousness is gone, then the mind is open and still, quiet, serene and calm, perfectly pure, and enormously stable.[/i]

https://terebess.hu/zen/daman.html
The author does not say how long it will take to traverse the Ten bodhisattva stages. It can be 10 000 years, 100 000 years, 100 000 000 years or more..
In the Lotus Sutra Shakyamuni bestows prophecies of attainment of buddhahood to different groups of disciples. Tthe bodhisattva career of Purna Maitrayaniputra is described thus :

"And as to the Buddhas, monks, who have in future to appear in this Bhadra-kalpa, to the number of a thousand less four, under the mastership of them also shall this same Pûrna, son of Maitrayanî, be the foremost among the preachers of the law and the keeper of the true law. Thus he shall keep the true law of innumerable and incalculable Lords and Buddhas in future, promote the interest of innumerable and incalculable beings, and bring innumerable and incalculable beings to full ripeness for supreme and perfect enlightenment. Constantly and assiduously he shall be instant in purifying his own Buddha-field and bringing creatures to ripeness. After completing such a Bodhisattva-course, at the end of innumerable, incalculable Æons, he shall reach supreme and perfect enlightenment; he shall in the world be the Tathâgata called Dharmaprabhâsa, an Arhat, &c., endowed with science and conduct, a Sugata, &c. He shall appear in this very Buddha-field.

"Further, monks, at that time the Buddha-field spoken of will look as if formed by thousands of spheres similar to the sands of the river Ganges. It will be even, like the palm of the hand, consist of seven precious substances, be without hills, and filled with high edifices of seven precious substances. There will be cars of the gods stationed in the sky; the gods will behold men, and men will behold the gods. Moreover, monks, at that time that Buddha-field shall be exempt from places of punishment and from womankind, as all beings shall be born by apparitional birth. They shall lead a spiritual life, have ideal bodies, be self-lighting, magical, moving in the firmament, strenuous, of good memory, wise, possessed of gold-coloured bodies, and adorned with the thirty-two characteristics of a great man. And at that time, monks, the beings in that Buddha-field will have two things to feed upon, viz. the delight in the law and the delight in meditation. There will be an immense, incalculable number of hundred thousands of myriads of kotis of Bodhisattvas; all endowed with great transcendent wisdom, accomplished in the (four) distinctive qualifications of an Arhat, able in instructing creatures. He (that Buddha) will have a number of disciples, beyond all calculation, mighty in magic, powerful, masters in the meditation of the eight emancipations. So immense are the good qualities that Buddha-field will be possessed of. And that Æon shall be called Ratnâvabhâsa (i.e. radiant with gems), and that world Suvisuddha (i.e. very pure). His lifetime shall last immense, incalculable Æons; and after the complete extinction of that Lord Dharmaprabhâsa, the Tathâgata, &c., his true law shall last long, and his world shall be full of Stûpas made of precious substances. Such inconceivable good qualities, monks, shall the Buddha-field of that Lord be possessed of."

SADDHARMA-PUNDARÎKA
OR, THE LOTUS OF THE TRUE LAW.
Translated By H. Kern (1884)
Sacred Books of the East, Vol XXI.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

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Aemilius wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:06 pm
LastLegend wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:23 am

Those who get this consciousness to disappear will then destroy the obstructing confusions of the Bodhisattvas of the ten stages. Once this consciousness is gone, then the mind is open and still, quiet, serene and calm, perfectly pure, and enormously stable.[/i]

https://terebess.hu/zen/daman.html
The author does not say how long it will take to traverse the Ten bodhisattva stages. It can be 10 000 years, 100 000 years, 100 000 000 years or more..
In the Lotus Sutra...
Actually, Buddhahood can be instantaneous. It takes a long time because people have hangups about how long it takes.
Mañjuśrī said: “In the ocean I always expounded only the Lotus Sutra.”

Then Prajñākūṭa questioned Mañjuśrī, saying: “This sutra is profound and subtle. It is a jewel among sutras and rare in the world. If sentient beings
diligently strive to practice this sutra, will they immediately become buddhas or not?”

Mañjuśrī answered: “Yes, they will. There is the daughter of the nāga king Sāgara who is only eight years old. She is wise; her faculties are sharp; and she also well knows all the faculties and deeds of sentient beings. She has attained the power of recollection. She preserves all the profound secret treasures taught by the buddhas, enters deep meditation, and is well capable of discerning all dharmas. She instantly produced the thought of enlightenment and attained the stage of nonretrogression. She has unhindered eloquence and thinks of sentient beings with as much compassion as if they were her own children. Her virtues are perfect. Her thoughts and explanations are subtle and extensive, merciful, and compassionate. She has a harmonious mind and has attained enlightenment.”

The Bodhisattva Prajñākūṭa said: “I see the Tathāgata Śākyamuni who has been incessantly carrying out difficult and severe practices for immeasurable kalpas, accumulating merit and virtue while seeking the bodhisattva path. Looking into the great manifold cosmos, there is not a single place even the size of a mustard seed where this bodhisattva has not abandoned his life for the sake of sentient beings. He attained the path to enlightenment only after this. It is hard to believe that this girl will instantly attain complete enlightenment.” Before he had finished speaking the daughter of the nāga king suddenly appeared in their presence. Bowing until her forehead touched their feet, she withdrew to one side and spoke these verses in praise:

The Buddha is deeply versed
In the characteristics of good and evil,
And he completely illuminates the ten directions.
His subtle and pure Dharma body
Is endowed with the thirty-two marks;
With the eighty good characteristics
Is his Dharma body adorned.
He is adored by devas and humans,
And honored by nāgas.
There is no sentient being
Who does not pay him homage.
Moreover, that I will attain enlightenment
Upon hearing him
Can only be known by a buddha.
I will reveal the teaching of the Mahayana
And save suffering sentient beings.

At that time Śāriputra spoke to the daughter of the nāga king, saying:

“You say that you will soon attain the highest path. This is difficult to believe. Why is this? The female body is polluted; it is not a fit vessel for the Dharma. How can you attain highest enlightenment?

“The buddha path is long. One can only attain it after diligently carrying out severe practices, and completely practicing the perfections over immeasurable kalpas. Moreover, the female body has five obstructions. The first is the inability to become a great Brahma. The second is the inability to become Śakra. The third is the inability to become Māra, and the fourth is the inability to become a universal monarch (cakravartin). The fifth is the inability to become a buddha. How can you with your female body quickly become a buddha?”

Then the daughter of the nāga king presented to the Buddha a jewel worth the great manifold cosmos, and the Buddha accepted it. The daughter of the nāga king spoke to Bodhisattva Prajñā kūṭa and the noble Śāriputra, saying: “I offered a jewel and the Bhagavat accepted it. Was that done quickly
or not?”

They answered, saying: “It was done extremely quickly!”

The daughter said: “Through your transcendent powers watch me become a buddha even more quickly than that!”

Then the assembly there all saw the daughter of the nāga king instantly transform into a man, perfect the bodhisattva practices, go to the vimalā world in the south, sit on a jeweled lotus flower, and attain highest, complete enlightenment, become endowed with the thirty-two marks and eighty excellent characteristics, and expound the True Dharma universally for the sake of all sentient beings in the ten directions. Then the bodhisattvas, śrāvakas, eight kinds of devas, nāgas, and so on, humans and nonhumans of the sahā world, all saw in the distance that the daughter of the nāga king had become a buddha and was universally teaching the Dharma for the sake of the humans and devas in that assembly. They rejoiced greatly and honored her from afar.
Alternatively, here's the translation of that passage from the Tibetan:
Mañjuśrī answered, “In the ocean I taught The Sūtra of the White Lotus of the Good Dharma and nothing else.” [F.99.b]

11.­92
“This sūtra is profound, subtle, and difficult to see,” said Prajñākūṭa. “There is no other sūtra that is its equal. Is there a being who is able to comprehend this sūtra jewel and attain the highest, complete enlightenment of perfect buddhahood?”

11.­93
“Noble one,” answered Mañjuśrī, “there is the daughter of Sāgara, king of the nāgas, who was born eight years ago. She has great wisdom, sharp faculties. The actions of her body, speech, and mind are preceded by wisdom. She has attained the retention by which she remembers the words and meaning of the teachings of all tathāgatas. She has attained in an instant a thousand samādhis of meditation on all phenomena and all beings. She has irreversible aspiration for enlightenment. She has made vast prayers. She cares for all beings as she would for herself. She can develop qualities and never lose them. She has a smiling face. She has a perfect, magnificent complexion. She has a loving mind. She speaks with compassion. She is able to attain the highest, complete enlightenment of perfect buddhahood.”

11.­94
Prajñākūṭa said, “I have seen that when the bhagavān tathāgata Śākyamuni had become a bodhisattva dedicated to attaining enlightenment, he generated much merit, and his diligence never weakened throughout thousands of eons. There is nowhere throughout the worlds of the realm of a billion worlds, not even a place the size of a mustard seed, where he has not given up his own body for the sake of beings. Only after all that did he attain the enlightenment of buddhahood. Who can believe that the daughter of Sāgara could attain the highest, complete enlightenment of perfect buddhahood in an instant?”

11.­95
Then at that time the daughter of Sāgara, the king of the nāgas, appeared before them. She bowed her head to the feet of the Bhagavān, sat down on one side, and recited these verses:

“His merit, that merit393 is profound,
And pervades every direction. [F.100.a]
His subtle body is adorned
By the thirty-two signs. {49}
11.­96
“He has the excellent features.
All beings pay homage to him.
All beings come to him
Like they do to a market town. {50}
11.­97
“The Tathāgata is my witness
That my wish is for enlightenment.
I will teach extensively
The Dharma that liberates from suffering.” {51}
11.­98
At that time Śāriputra said to the daughter of Sāgara, king of the nāgas, “Noble lady, although you have an irreversible aspiration for enlightenment and immeasurable wisdom, it will be difficult for you to attain enlightenment. Noble lady, a woman may maintain diligence, create merit for many thousands of eons, and complete the six perfections, but still she will not attain buddhahood. Why is that? It is because a woman has still not attained five states. What are these five? The first is the state of being a Brahmā, the second is the state of being a Śakra, the third is the state of being one of the four mahārājas, the fourth is the state of being a cakravartin, and the fifth is the state of being an irreversible bodhisattva.”

11.­99
At that time, the daughter of Sāgara, king of the nāgas, had a jewel of the value of an entire realm of a billion worlds. The daughter of the nāga king offered it to the Bhagavān, and the Bhagavān accepted it out of compassion.

11.­100
The daughter of Sāgara, king of the nāgas, then asked Prajñākūṭa and Sthavira Śāriputra, “Did the Bhagavān quickly accept the jewel that I offered to the Bhagavān, or not?”

“You offered it quickly and the Bhagavān accepted it quickly,” the sthavira answered.

The daughter of Sāgara, king of the nāgas, said, “Venerable Śāriputra, if I have great miraculous power, I will attain the highest, complete enlightenment of perfect buddhahood even more quickly than that jewel was accepted.” [F.100.b]

11.­101
Thereupon, in front of the entire world, and in front of Sthavira Śāriputra, the daughter of Sāgara, king of the nāgas, manifested the vanishing of her female genitalia, the appearance of male genitalia, and her transformation into a bodhisattva.

11.­102
That bodhisattva now went to the south and, in a southern world realm named Vimalā, manifested the attainment of perfect buddhahood while seated at the foot of a tree made of the seven precious materials.

11.­103
That buddha had a body that possessed all thirty-two signs and the excellent features, and shone with a light that pervaded the ten directions as he gave the teaching of the Dharma. All beings in this Sahā world realm saw all the devas, nāgas, yakṣas, gandharvas, asuras, garuḍas, kinnaras, mahoragas, humans, and nonhumans paying homage to that tathāgata and saw him teaching them the Dharma. All those beings who listened to that tathāgata’s Dharma teaching attained irreversible progress toward the highest, complete enlightenment of perfect buddhahood.

11.­104
That Vimalā world realm and this Sahā world realm both shook in six ways. Three thousand beings within the circle of Bhagavān Śākyamuni’s assembly attained receptivity to the birthlessness of phenomena, and three thousand received the prophecies of their attainment of the highest, complete enlightenment.

At this, the bodhisattva mahāsattva Prajñākūṭa and Sthavira Śāriputra fell silent.
No offense, but you guys are arguing about angels on a pin. If you think you have a long way, then you're making your own prophecy. That's how it works. But by all means, keep scrubbing those toilets!

Amitabha's vows work for the same reason the Wizard of Oz could make the lion brave.

The echoes of Shariputra's encounter with the nymph in Vimalakirti's house should be noted. In that text, he freaks out when he becomes a woman, among other freakouts that prevent him and other sravakas from freely participating in the assembly.
Last edited by Queequeg on Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:59 pm
Aemilius wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:06 pm
LastLegend wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:23 am

Those who get this consciousness to disappear will then destroy the obstructing confusions of the Bodhisattvas of the ten stages. Once this consciousness is gone, then the mind is open and still, quiet, serene and calm, perfectly pure, and enormously stable.[/i]

https://terebess.hu/zen/daman.html
The author does not say how long it will take to traverse the Ten bodhisattva stages. It can be 10 000 years, 100 000 years, 100 000 000 years or more..
In the Lotus Sutra...
Actually, Buddhahood can be instantaneous.
The Naga girl was already an eighth stage bodhisattva, so, not exactly.
User avatar
Queequeg
Former staff member
Posts: 14462
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:11 pm
Queequeg wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:59 pm
Aemilius wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:06 pm

The author does not say how long it will take to traverse the Ten bodhisattva stages. It can be 10 000 years, 100 000 years, 100 000 000 years or more..
In the Lotus Sutra...
Actually, Buddhahood can be instantaneous.
The Naga girl was already an eighth stage bodhisattva, so, not exactly.
Which she attained instantaneously according to the text. It doesn't say how she got there, but arguably, it was within the 8 years of her life after hearing the Lotus from Manjusri.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
User avatar
Queequeg
Former staff member
Posts: 14462
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

Post by Queequeg »

To follow up, I might be missing something, but this episode comes up in the context of the question, can a being (not an 8th stage bodhisattva) instantaneously attain buddhahood? This is the context where Sagara's 8 year old daughter makes her appearance. Moreover, Shariputra says this:
At that time Śāriputra said to the daughter of Sāgara, king of the nāgas, “Noble lady, although you have an irreversible aspiration for enlightenment and immeasurable wisdom, it will be difficult for you to attain enlightenment. Noble lady, a woman may maintain diligence, create merit for many thousands of eons, and complete the six perfections, but still she will not attain buddhahood. Why is that? It is because a woman has still not attained five states. What are these five? The first is the state of being a Brahmā, the second is the state of being a Śakra, the third is the state of being one of the four mahārājas, the fourth is the state of being a cakravartin, and the fifth is the state of being an irreversible bodhisattva.
Am I missing something? Is there a footnote to tell us what this episode really means?
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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LastLegend
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

Post by LastLegend »

Queequeg wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:59 pm
Aemilius wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:06 pm
LastLegend wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:23 am

Those who get this consciousness to disappear will then destroy the obstructing confusions of the Bodhisattvas of the ten stages. Once this consciousness is gone, then the mind is open and still, quiet, serene and calm, perfectly pure, and enormously stable.[/i]

https://terebess.hu/zen/daman.html
The author does not say how long it will take to traverse the Ten bodhisattva stages. It can be 10 000 years, 100 000 years, 100 000 000 years or more..
In the Lotus Sutra...
Actually, Buddhahood can be instantaneous. It takes a long time because people have hangups about how long it takes.
Mañjuśrī said: “In the ocean I always expounded only the Lotus Sutra.”

Then Prajñākūṭa questioned Mañjuśrī, saying: “This sutra is profound and subtle. It is a jewel among sutras and rare in the world. If sentient beings
diligently strive to practice this sutra, will they immediately become buddhas or not?”

Mañjuśrī answered: “Yes, they will. There is the daughter of the nāga king Sāgara who is only eight years old. She is wise; her faculties are sharp; and she also well knows all the faculties and deeds of sentient beings. She has attained the power of recollection. She preserves all the profound secret treasures taught by the buddhas, enters deep meditation, and is well capable of discerning all dharmas. She instantly produced the thought of enlightenment and attained the stage of nonretrogression. She has unhindered eloquence and thinks of sentient beings with as much compassion as if they were her own children. Her virtues are perfect. Her thoughts and explanations are subtle and extensive, merciful, and compassionate. She has a harmonious mind and has attained enlightenment.”

The Bodhisattva Prajñākūṭa said: “I see the Tathāgata Śākyamuni who has been incessantly carrying out difficult and severe practices for immeasurable kalpas, accumulating merit and virtue while seeking the bodhisattva path. Looking into the great manifold cosmos, there is not a single place even the size of a mustard seed where this bodhisattva has not abandoned his life for the sake of sentient beings. He attained the path to enlightenment only after this. It is hard to believe that this girl will instantly attain complete enlightenment.” Before he had finished speaking the daughter of the nāga king suddenly appeared in their presence. Bowing until her forehead touched their feet, she withdrew to one side and spoke these verses in praise:

The Buddha is deeply versed
In the characteristics of good and evil,
And he completely illuminates the ten directions.
His subtle and pure Dharma body
Is endowed with the thirty-two marks;
With the eighty good characteristics
Is his Dharma body adorned.
He is adored by devas and humans,
And honored by nāgas.
There is no sentient being
Who does not pay him homage.
Moreover, that I will attain enlightenment
Upon hearing him
Can only be known by a buddha.
I will reveal the teaching of the Mahayana
And save suffering sentient beings.

At that time Śāriputra spoke to the daughter of the nāga king, saying:

“You say that you will soon attain the highest path. This is difficult to believe. Why is this? The female body is polluted; it is not a fit vessel for the Dharma. How can you attain highest enlightenment?

“The buddha path is long. One can only attain it after diligently carrying out severe practices, and completely practicing the perfections over immeasurable kalpas. Moreover, the female body has five obstructions. The first is the inability to become a great Brahma. The second is the inability to become Śakra. The third is the inability to become Māra, and the fourth is the inability to become a universal monarch (cakravartin). The fifth is the inability to become a buddha. How can you with your female body quickly become a buddha?”

Then the daughter of the nāga king presented to the Buddha a jewel worth the great manifold cosmos, and the Buddha accepted it. The daughter of the nāga king spoke to Bodhisattva Prajñā kūṭa and the noble Śāriputra, saying: “I offered a jewel and the Bhagavat accepted it. Was that done quickly
or not?”

They answered, saying: “It was done extremely quickly!”

The daughter said: “Through your transcendent powers watch me become a buddha even more quickly than that!”

Then the assembly there all saw the daughter of the nāga king instantly transform into a man, perfect the bodhisattva practices, go to the vimalā world in the south, sit on a jeweled lotus flower, and attain highest, complete enlightenment, become endowed with the thirty-two marks and eighty excellent characteristics, and expound the True Dharma universally for the sake of all sentient beings in the ten directions. Then the bodhisattvas, śrāvakas, eight kinds of devas, nāgas, and so on, humans and nonhumans of the sahā world, all saw in the distance that the daughter of the nāga king had become a buddha and was universally teaching the Dharma for the sake of the humans and devas in that assembly. They rejoiced greatly and honored her from afar.
Alternatively, here's the translation of that passage from the Tibetan:
Mañjuśrī answered, “In the ocean I taught The Sūtra of the White Lotus of the Good Dharma and nothing else.” [F.99.b]

11.­92
“This sūtra is profound, subtle, and difficult to see,” said Prajñākūṭa. “There is no other sūtra that is its equal. Is there a being who is able to comprehend this sūtra jewel and attain the highest, complete enlightenment of perfect buddhahood?”

11.­93
“Noble one,” answered Mañjuśrī, “there is the daughter of Sāgara, king of the nāgas, who was born eight years ago. She has great wisdom, sharp faculties. The actions of her body, speech, and mind are preceded by wisdom. She has attained the retention by which she remembers the words and meaning of the teachings of all tathāgatas. She has attained in an instant a thousand samādhis of meditation on all phenomena and all beings. She has irreversible aspiration for enlightenment. She has made vast prayers. She cares for all beings as she would for herself. She can develop qualities and never lose them. She has a smiling face. She has a perfect, magnificent complexion. She has a loving mind. She speaks with compassion. She is able to attain the highest, complete enlightenment of perfect buddhahood.”

11.­94
Prajñākūṭa said, “I have seen that when the bhagavān tathāgata Śākyamuni had become a bodhisattva dedicated to attaining enlightenment, he generated much merit, and his diligence never weakened throughout thousands of eons. There is nowhere throughout the worlds of the realm of a billion worlds, not even a place the size of a mustard seed, where he has not given up his own body for the sake of beings. Only after all that did he attain the enlightenment of buddhahood. Who can believe that the daughter of Sāgara could attain the highest, complete enlightenment of perfect buddhahood in an instant?”

11.­95
Then at that time the daughter of Sāgara, the king of the nāgas, appeared before them. She bowed her head to the feet of the Bhagavān, sat down on one side, and recited these verses:

“His merit, that merit393 is profound,
And pervades every direction. [F.100.a]
His subtle body is adorned
By the thirty-two signs. {49}
11.­96
“He has the excellent features.
All beings pay homage to him.
All beings come to him
Like they do to a market town. {50}
11.­97
“The Tathāgata is my witness
That my wish is for enlightenment.
I will teach extensively
The Dharma that liberates from suffering.” {51}
11.­98
At that time Śāriputra said to the daughter of Sāgara, king of the nāgas, “Noble lady, although you have an irreversible aspiration for enlightenment and immeasurable wisdom, it will be difficult for you to attain enlightenment. Noble lady, a woman may maintain diligence, create merit for many thousands of eons, and complete the six perfections, but still she will not attain buddhahood. Why is that? It is because a woman has still not attained five states. What are these five? The first is the state of being a Brahmā, the second is the state of being a Śakra, the third is the state of being one of the four mahārājas, the fourth is the state of being a cakravartin, and the fifth is the state of being an irreversible bodhisattva.”

11.­99
At that time, the daughter of Sāgara, king of the nāgas, had a jewel of the value of an entire realm of a billion worlds. The daughter of the nāga king offered it to the Bhagavān, and the Bhagavān accepted it out of compassion.

11.­100
The daughter of Sāgara, king of the nāgas, then asked Prajñākūṭa and Sthavira Śāriputra, “Did the Bhagavān quickly accept the jewel that I offered to the Bhagavān, or not?”

“You offered it quickly and the Bhagavān accepted it quickly,” the sthavira answered.

The daughter of Sāgara, king of the nāgas, said, “Venerable Śāriputra, if I have great miraculous power, I will attain the highest, complete enlightenment of perfect buddhahood even more quickly than that jewel was accepted.” [F.100.b]

11.­101
Thereupon, in front of the entire world, and in front of Sthavira Śāriputra, the daughter of Sāgara, king of the nāgas, manifested the vanishing of her female genitalia, the appearance of male genitalia, and her transformation into a bodhisattva.

11.­102
That bodhisattva now went to the south and, in a southern world realm named Vimalā, manifested the attainment of perfect buddhahood while seated at the foot of a tree made of the seven precious materials.

11.­103
That buddha had a body that possessed all thirty-two signs and the excellent features, and shone with a light that pervaded the ten directions as he gave the teaching of the Dharma. All beings in this Sahā world realm saw all the devas, nāgas, yakṣas, gandharvas, asuras, garuḍas, kinnaras, mahoragas, humans, and nonhumans paying homage to that tathāgata and saw him teaching them the Dharma. All those beings who listened to that tathāgata’s Dharma teaching attained irreversible progress toward the highest, complete enlightenment of perfect buddhahood.

11.­104
That Vimalā world realm and this Sahā world realm both shook in six ways. Three thousand beings within the circle of Bhagavān Śākyamuni’s assembly attained receptivity to the birthlessness of phenomena, and three thousand received the prophecies of their attainment of the highest, complete enlightenment.

At this, the bodhisattva mahāsattva Prajñākūṭa and Sthavira Śāriputra fell silent.
No offense, but you guys are arguing about angels on a pin. If you think you have a long way, then you're making your own prophecy. That's how it works. But by all means, keep scrubbing those toilets!

Amitabha's vows work for the same reason the Wizard of Oz could make the lion brave.

The echoes of Shariputra's encounter with the nymph in Vimalakirti's house should be noted. In that text, he freaks out when he becomes a woman, among other freakouts that prevent him and other sravakas from freely participating in the assembly.
I already made a post waiting for approval which resonates with what you said. The way I understand it is once someone surpassed consciousness (with the power of Buddhas (Amitabha, Vairocana, etc), they totally realize emptiness or Buddha nature. This is not equivalent to a full Buddha. They’ll continue teachings from Buddhas to further advance their career. Because there isn’t rainbows or nothing in there in what they have realized. This is very important to understand. Perhaps this is where the issue of what Zhen Li said ‘sundry practice.’ Versus the Pure Land Palace of Amitabha.
User avatar
Queequeg
Former staff member
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Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

Post by Queequeg »

LastLegend wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:42 pm
Queequeg wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:59 pm
Aemilius wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:06 pm

The author does not say how long it will take to traverse the Ten bodhisattva stages. It can be 10 000 years, 100 000 years, 100 000 000 years or more..
In the Lotus Sutra...
Actually, Buddhahood can be instantaneous. It takes a long time because people have hangups about how long it takes.
Mañjuśrī said: “In the ocean I always expounded only the Lotus Sutra.”

Then Prajñākūṭa questioned Mañjuśrī, saying: “This sutra is profound and subtle. It is a jewel among sutras and rare in the world. If sentient beings
diligently strive to practice this sutra, will they immediately become buddhas or not?”

Mañjuśrī answered: “Yes, they will. There is the daughter of the nāga king Sāgara who is only eight years old. She is wise; her faculties are sharp; and she also well knows all the faculties and deeds of sentient beings. She has attained the power of recollection. She preserves all the profound secret treasures taught by the buddhas, enters deep meditation, and is well capable of discerning all dharmas. She instantly produced the thought of enlightenment and attained the stage of nonretrogression. She has unhindered eloquence and thinks of sentient beings with as much compassion as if they were her own children. Her virtues are perfect. Her thoughts and explanations are subtle and extensive, merciful, and compassionate. She has a harmonious mind and has attained enlightenment.”

The Bodhisattva Prajñākūṭa said: “I see the Tathāgata Śākyamuni who has been incessantly carrying out difficult and severe practices for immeasurable kalpas, accumulating merit and virtue while seeking the bodhisattva path. Looking into the great manifold cosmos, there is not a single place even the size of a mustard seed where this bodhisattva has not abandoned his life for the sake of sentient beings. He attained the path to enlightenment only after this. It is hard to believe that this girl will instantly attain complete enlightenment.” Before he had finished speaking the daughter of the nāga king suddenly appeared in their presence. Bowing until her forehead touched their feet, she withdrew to one side and spoke these verses in praise:

The Buddha is deeply versed
In the characteristics of good and evil,
And he completely illuminates the ten directions.
His subtle and pure Dharma body
Is endowed with the thirty-two marks;
With the eighty good characteristics
Is his Dharma body adorned.
He is adored by devas and humans,
And honored by nāgas.
There is no sentient being
Who does not pay him homage.
Moreover, that I will attain enlightenment
Upon hearing him
Can only be known by a buddha.
I will reveal the teaching of the Mahayana
And save suffering sentient beings.

At that time Śāriputra spoke to the daughter of the nāga king, saying:

“You say that you will soon attain the highest path. This is difficult to believe. Why is this? The female body is polluted; it is not a fit vessel for the Dharma. How can you attain highest enlightenment?

“The buddha path is long. One can only attain it after diligently carrying out severe practices, and completely practicing the perfections over immeasurable kalpas. Moreover, the female body has five obstructions. The first is the inability to become a great Brahma. The second is the inability to become Śakra. The third is the inability to become Māra, and the fourth is the inability to become a universal monarch (cakravartin). The fifth is the inability to become a buddha. How can you with your female body quickly become a buddha?”

Then the daughter of the nāga king presented to the Buddha a jewel worth the great manifold cosmos, and the Buddha accepted it. The daughter of the nāga king spoke to Bodhisattva Prajñā kūṭa and the noble Śāriputra, saying: “I offered a jewel and the Bhagavat accepted it. Was that done quickly
or not?”

They answered, saying: “It was done extremely quickly!”

The daughter said: “Through your transcendent powers watch me become a buddha even more quickly than that!”

Then the assembly there all saw the daughter of the nāga king instantly transform into a man, perfect the bodhisattva practices, go to the vimalā world in the south, sit on a jeweled lotus flower, and attain highest, complete enlightenment, become endowed with the thirty-two marks and eighty excellent characteristics, and expound the True Dharma universally for the sake of all sentient beings in the ten directions. Then the bodhisattvas, śrāvakas, eight kinds of devas, nāgas, and so on, humans and nonhumans of the sahā world, all saw in the distance that the daughter of the nāga king had become a buddha and was universally teaching the Dharma for the sake of the humans and devas in that assembly. They rejoiced greatly and honored her from afar.
Alternatively, here's the translation of that passage from the Tibetan:
Mañjuśrī answered, “In the ocean I taught The Sūtra of the White Lotus of the Good Dharma and nothing else.” [F.99.b]

11.­92
“This sūtra is profound, subtle, and difficult to see,” said Prajñākūṭa. “There is no other sūtra that is its equal. Is there a being who is able to comprehend this sūtra jewel and attain the highest, complete enlightenment of perfect buddhahood?”

11.­93
“Noble one,” answered Mañjuśrī, “there is the daughter of Sāgara, king of the nāgas, who was born eight years ago. She has great wisdom, sharp faculties. The actions of her body, speech, and mind are preceded by wisdom. She has attained the retention by which she remembers the words and meaning of the teachings of all tathāgatas. She has attained in an instant a thousand samādhis of meditation on all phenomena and all beings. She has irreversible aspiration for enlightenment. She has made vast prayers. She cares for all beings as she would for herself. She can develop qualities and never lose them. She has a smiling face. She has a perfect, magnificent complexion. She has a loving mind. She speaks with compassion. She is able to attain the highest, complete enlightenment of perfect buddhahood.”

11.­94
Prajñākūṭa said, “I have seen that when the bhagavān tathāgata Śākyamuni had become a bodhisattva dedicated to attaining enlightenment, he generated much merit, and his diligence never weakened throughout thousands of eons. There is nowhere throughout the worlds of the realm of a billion worlds, not even a place the size of a mustard seed, where he has not given up his own body for the sake of beings. Only after all that did he attain the enlightenment of buddhahood. Who can believe that the daughter of Sāgara could attain the highest, complete enlightenment of perfect buddhahood in an instant?”

11.­95
Then at that time the daughter of Sāgara, the king of the nāgas, appeared before them. She bowed her head to the feet of the Bhagavān, sat down on one side, and recited these verses:

“His merit, that merit393 is profound,
And pervades every direction. [F.100.a]
His subtle body is adorned
By the thirty-two signs. {49}
11.­96
“He has the excellent features.
All beings pay homage to him.
All beings come to him
Like they do to a market town. {50}
11.­97
“The Tathāgata is my witness
That my wish is for enlightenment.
I will teach extensively
The Dharma that liberates from suffering.” {51}
11.­98
At that time Śāriputra said to the daughter of Sāgara, king of the nāgas, “Noble lady, although you have an irreversible aspiration for enlightenment and immeasurable wisdom, it will be difficult for you to attain enlightenment. Noble lady, a woman may maintain diligence, create merit for many thousands of eons, and complete the six perfections, but still she will not attain buddhahood. Why is that? It is because a woman has still not attained five states. What are these five? The first is the state of being a Brahmā, the second is the state of being a Śakra, the third is the state of being one of the four mahārājas, the fourth is the state of being a cakravartin, and the fifth is the state of being an irreversible bodhisattva.”

11.­99
At that time, the daughter of Sāgara, king of the nāgas, had a jewel of the value of an entire realm of a billion worlds. The daughter of the nāga king offered it to the Bhagavān, and the Bhagavān accepted it out of compassion.

11.­100
The daughter of Sāgara, king of the nāgas, then asked Prajñākūṭa and Sthavira Śāriputra, “Did the Bhagavān quickly accept the jewel that I offered to the Bhagavān, or not?”

“You offered it quickly and the Bhagavān accepted it quickly,” the sthavira answered.

The daughter of Sāgara, king of the nāgas, said, “Venerable Śāriputra, if I have great miraculous power, I will attain the highest, complete enlightenment of perfect buddhahood even more quickly than that jewel was accepted.” [F.100.b]

11.­101
Thereupon, in front of the entire world, and in front of Sthavira Śāriputra, the daughter of Sāgara, king of the nāgas, manifested the vanishing of her female genitalia, the appearance of male genitalia, and her transformation into a bodhisattva.

11.­102
That bodhisattva now went to the south and, in a southern world realm named Vimalā, manifested the attainment of perfect buddhahood while seated at the foot of a tree made of the seven precious materials.

11.­103
That buddha had a body that possessed all thirty-two signs and the excellent features, and shone with a light that pervaded the ten directions as he gave the teaching of the Dharma. All beings in this Sahā world realm saw all the devas, nāgas, yakṣas, gandharvas, asuras, garuḍas, kinnaras, mahoragas, humans, and nonhumans paying homage to that tathāgata and saw him teaching them the Dharma. All those beings who listened to that tathāgata’s Dharma teaching attained irreversible progress toward the highest, complete enlightenment of perfect buddhahood.

11.­104
That Vimalā world realm and this Sahā world realm both shook in six ways. Three thousand beings within the circle of Bhagavān Śākyamuni’s assembly attained receptivity to the birthlessness of phenomena, and three thousand received the prophecies of their attainment of the highest, complete enlightenment.

At this, the bodhisattva mahāsattva Prajñākūṭa and Sthavira Śāriputra fell silent.
No offense, but you guys are arguing about angels on a pin. If you think you have a long way, then you're making your own prophecy. That's how it works. But by all means, keep scrubbing those toilets!

Amitabha's vows work for the same reason the Wizard of Oz could make the lion brave.

The echoes of Shariputra's encounter with the nymph in Vimalakirti's house should be noted. In that text, he freaks out when he becomes a woman, among other freakouts that prevent him and other sravakas from freely participating in the assembly.
I already made a post waiting for approval which resonates with what you said. The way I understand it is once someone surpassed consciousness (with the power of Buddhas (Amitabha, Vairocana, etc), they totally realize emptiness or Buddha nature. This is not equivalent to a full Buddha. They’ll continue teachings from Buddhas to further advance their career. Because there isn’t rainbows or nothing in there in what they have realized. This is very important to understand. Perhaps this is where the issue of what Zhen Li said ‘sundry practice.’ Versus the Pure Land Palace of Amitabha.
I suspect these fellas are taking the very narrow view of Japanese Jodo and Shin Buddhism. I don't think realizing emptiness is even on the menu for this life in these approaches. More generally, I think Jodo and Shin are responses to the very limited options available within a Degenerate Age paradigm. Nichiren wrestled with the same problem but came back with an alternative approach affirming the possibility of Buddhahood in this life through the Lotus.

I'm reminded of some Modest Mouse lyrics -

Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates a problem.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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