Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

Post by Queequeg »

Following up... IMHO, the Degenerate Age concerns of Medieval East Asian Buddhism are creatures of Common Mahayana, not Ekayana. The best way to overcome an impasse is to just blow the whole thing up, which I tend to see Ekayana doing to Common Mahayana. The Lotus is an incendiary device.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

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LastLegend wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:42 pm The way I understand it is once someone surpassed consciousness (with the power of Buddhas (Amitabha, Vairocana, etc), they totally realize emptiness or Buddha nature. This is not equivalent to a full Buddha. They’ll continue teachings from Buddhas to further advance their career. Because there isn’t rainbows or nothing in there in what they have realized. This is very important to understand. Perhaps this is where the issue of what Zhen Li said ‘sundry practice.’ Versus the Pure Land Palace of Amitabha.
Zhiyi suggests that once one merely hears of Buddhanature - could be from a Buddha, or a teacher, or reading it in a text - one irreversibly enters the path. This is based on the Avatamsaka, Prajnaparamita and Lotus Sutras, among others. At that point one is still far from full blown buddhahood, but they are indelibly on the continuum. Zhiyi is arguably relevant here because the the major Japanese Pure Land schools are splinters from Tendai which claims lineage to Zhiyi.

As I understand, the approach of Japanese Pure Land schools is to accept that advancement or even hearing the teaching is impossible in Saha because we have entered the Degenerate Age. Accordingly, one relies on Amitabha's vows, particularly the 18th vow that all beings who call on Amitabha can be born in Sukhavati where his teachings endure. I believe Shinran was more philosophical about this than his teacher Honen, suggesting some possibility of immediate attainment of Sukhavati, but I'm admittedly not very familiar with the details.

Basically, Sukhavati is the sure thing, whereas everything else, the Sundry Practices, is basically futile.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

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Queequeg wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:43 pm
LastLegend wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:42 pm The way I understand it is once someone surpassed consciousness (with the power of Buddhas (Amitabha, Vairocana, etc), they totally realize emptiness or Buddha nature. This is not equivalent to a full Buddha. They’ll continue teachings from Buddhas to further advance their career. Because there isn’t rainbows or nothing in there in what they have realized. This is very important to understand. Perhaps this is where the issue of what Zhen Li said ‘sundry practice.’ Versus the Pure Land Palace of Amitabha.
Zhiyi suggests that once one merely hears of Buddhanature - could be from a Buddha, or a teacher, or reading it in a text - one irreversibly enters the path. This is based on the Avatamsaka, Prajnaparamita and Lotus Sutras, among others. At that point one is still far from full blown buddhahood, but they are indelibly on the continuum. Zhiyi is relevant here because the the major Japanese Pure Land schools are splinters from Tendai which claims lineage to Zhiyi.

As I understand, the approach of Japanese Pure Land schools is to accept that advancement or even hearing the teaching is impossible in Saha because we have entered the Degenerate Age. Accordingly, one relies on Amitabha's vows, particularly the 18th vow that all beings who call on Amitabha can be born in Sukhavati where his teachings endure. I believe Shinran was more philosophical about this than his teacher Honen, suggesting some possibility of immediate attainment of Sukhavati, but I'm admittedly not very familiar with the details.

Basically, Sukhavati is the sure thing, whereas everything else, the Sundry Practices, is basically futile.
I am not sure what sundry practice is. I am suspecting a large community of Buddhist whether east or west who relies on what they think is a self power path (which wasn’t never the case). Basically the issue is 1) they are trapped in Buddha nature or emptiness which given the final breakthrough there isn’t anything in it other the empty nature in its purest is what Daman Hongren said “to disappear consciousness” which has surpassed the 10th stages. I am suspecting this is what Zhen Li referring to the sundry practice 1) trapped in emptiness. 2) the Bodhisattva path on earth being dry. Dry in a sense that one has not been an accomplished Buddha like Amitabha (still remaining on earth no Pure Lands now rainbows no color nothing). I don’t think Zhen Li is aware that once surpassed the 10th stage, they have insights to transform themselves and others and have reached non-regression.

The very issue lies in sentient beings who are not ready to walk the path or who don’t want to be liberated. They were given a provisional practice. Given the power or the ability of Buddhas demonstrated and the promised vows to deliver sentient beings including Bodhisattvas. If each accomplished Buddha can flick a finger to summon all Buddhas (if one reads Vairocana Sutras, he is the main Buddha to summon all Buddhas while in Lotus Shakymuni is the main Buddha) and make certain predictions for participants at the essembly, we can trust the power of Buddhas to deliver sentient beings. One can only ask by what means did the dragon girl turn into a 10th stage or so immediately? There is a lot to be said about ‘profound heart.’
Last edited by LastLegend on Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

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Given one awakened to Mahayana faith, the Bodhisattva path on earth is possible. When one has vows that is already a cause to be affiliated with Buddhas. Other power works for different levels of aspirations not opposing to what Zhen Li said.
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

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LastLegend wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:25 pm
Queequeg wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:43 pm
LastLegend wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:42 pm The way I understand it is once someone surpassed consciousness (with the power of Buddhas (Amitabha, Vairocana, etc), they totally realize emptiness or Buddha nature. This is not equivalent to a full Buddha. They’ll continue teachings from Buddhas to further advance their career. Because there isn’t rainbows or nothing in there in what they have realized. This is very important to understand. Perhaps this is where the issue of what Zhen Li said ‘sundry practice.’ Versus the Pure Land Palace of Amitabha.
Zhiyi suggests that once one merely hears of Buddhanature - could be from a Buddha, or a teacher, or reading it in a text - one irreversibly enters the path. This is based on the Avatamsaka, Prajnaparamita and Lotus Sutras, among others. At that point one is still far from full blown buddhahood, but they are indelibly on the continuum. Zhiyi is relevant here because the the major Japanese Pure Land schools are splinters from Tendai which claims lineage to Zhiyi.

As I understand, the approach of Japanese Pure Land schools is to accept that advancement or even hearing the teaching is impossible in Saha because we have entered the Degenerate Age. Accordingly, one relies on Amitabha's vows, particularly the 18th vow that all beings who call on Amitabha can be born in Sukhavati where his teachings endure. I believe Shinran was more philosophical about this than his teacher Honen, suggesting some possibility of immediate attainment of Sukhavati, but I'm admittedly not very familiar with the details.

Basically, Sukhavati is the sure thing, whereas everything else, the Sundry Practices, is basically futile.
I am not sure what sundry practice is. I am suspecting a large community of Buddhist whether east or west who relies on what they think is a self power path (which wasn’t never the case). Basically the issue is 1) they are trapped in Buddha nature or emptiness which given the final breakthrough there isn’t anything in it other the empty nature in its purest is what Daman Hongren said “to disappear consciousness” which has surpassed the 10th stages. I am suspecting this is what Zhen Li referring to the sundry practice 1) trapped in emptiness. 2) the Bodhisattva path on earth being dry. Dry in a sense that one has not been an accomplished Buddha like Amitabha (still remaining on earth no Pure Lands now rainbows no color nothing). I don’t think Zhen Li is aware that once surpassed the 10th stage, they have insights to transform themselves and others and have reached non-regression.

The very issue lies in sentient beings who are not ready to walk the path or who don’t want to be liberated. They were given a provisional practice. Given the power or the ability of Buddhas demonstrated and the promised vows to deliver sentient beings including Bodhisattvas. If each accomplished Buddha can flick a finger to summon all Buddhas (if one reads Vairocana Sutras, he is the main Buddha to summon all Buddhas while in Lotus Shakymuni is the main Buddha) and make certain predictions for participants at the essembly, we can trust the power of Buddhas to deliver sentient beings. One can only ask by what means did the dragon girl turn into a 10th stage or so immediately? There is a lot to be said about ‘profound heart.’
Zhen Li can speak for himself, but in the Japanese Pure Land schools, Sundry Practices pretty much means anything other than seeking rebirth in Sukhavati. Its a hardline position. It is a complete pessimism about the prospects for this life in this world. There's a reason there has been such strong kick back against it.

People talk themselves into all kinds of hopelessness.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

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Vows…22, 42, and 48 are to deliver ordinary Bodhisattvas.

https://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/ ... 20vows.pdf
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

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LastLegend wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:13 pm Vows…22, 42, and 48 are to deliver ordinary Bodhisattvas.

https://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/ ... 20vows.pdf
But they take as fact this is the Degenerate Age of Shakymuni's teaching and no bodhisattvas appear here. In their view, its like offering a lottery prize but not issuing any tickets. You're not experiencing dissonance. That's actually the doctrine they propagate.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

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Queequeg wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:22 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:11 pm
Queequeg wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:59 pm

Actually, Buddhahood can be instantaneous.
The Naga girl was already an eighth stage bodhisattva, so, not exactly.
...but arguably, it was within the 8 years of her life after hearing the Lotus from Manjusri.
No, definitely not. In fact, the Chogyal Phakpa, fifth founder master of Sakya, has a text specifically aimed at addressing misconceptions about the Nāgā princess tale. He was the imperial preceptor to Kublai Khan, was fluent in Chinese, and interacted daily with the Chinese Buddhists.

He addresses your contention that she was able to traverse the entire path in eight years, soup to nuts. According to him, the Lotus itself shows that the retinue of nāgās were not ordinary trainees who had never entered the path and that there was no training in method. Why? Those nāgās had previously entered Mahāyāna as evidenced by the fact that they praised the qualities of Mahāyāna and the six perfections. Chogyal Phagpa contends that the nāga girl was an tenth stage bodhisattva in fact, from birth, based on the passage, "She has great wisdom, sharp faculties. The actions of her body, speech, and mind are preceded by wisdom..." He claims all these are qualities of a tenth stage bodhisattva, and cites the Sutrālaṃkāra in support of this. Specifically he cites power over the doors of dhāraṇi as being a quality only of tenth stage bodhisattvas. He then defines how long it takes to attain that stage. It takes one uncountable eon to reach the first stage. A second to reach the eighth stage. At that time, one attains patience to the nonarising of dharmas and receives a prediction of buddhahood by the buddhas. It takes a third incalculable eon to attain unsurpassed buddhahood.

He points out that the full awakening of a tenth bodhisattva is not an instant awakening without traversing the paths and stages, but is in fact the conclusion of the ordinary progress of a bodhisattva. Further, he also points that she, as a tenth stage bodhisattva, was an emanation, that as an ordinary women with karmic obscurations, she could not attain the tenth bhumi. As one who was irreversible and had realized the gnosis of the tenth stage, the nāgā princess was an emanation of a tenth stage bodhisattva, which was revealed by her transformation into a male, her actual form. He further asserts her buddhahood in the southern world system was an emanational act of a tenth stage bodhisattva, rather than the attainment of buddhahood. Again, based on the sūtra's actual words, he claims the texts reads that she exhibited buddhahood to all, not that she was a buddha, pointing out that exhibiting full buddhahood and emanating a buddha kāya, including all the deeds of a buddha, such as residing Tuṣita, conception up through parinirvana, are among the listed powers of a tenth stage bodhisattva such as Avalokiteśvara, etc., as explained in the Sutra of the Ten stages.

Chogyal Phakpa, when setting out the intention of this sūtra, agrees it is a definitive sūtra, but for entirely different reasons. He says the intent of this sūtra is, ""Since all phenomena are of one taste and all vehicles are accomplished in a single vehicle, the Sūtra of the White Lotus of the Sublime Dharma was produced to show that the result is of one taste in the ocean of gnosis of Tathāgata," and so on.

So, a very different perspective.
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

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So, Shariputra was just wrong in his perception.

When you have to use so much ink to explain what something really is... :shrug:

But if such views encourage beings... who am I to argue?
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:36 pm So, Shariputra was just wrong in his perception.
Well, he is regularly presented as the stooge in Mahāyāna Sūtras.
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

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Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:33 pm
Queequeg wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:36 pm So, Shariputra was just wrong in his perception.
Well, he is regularly presented as the stooge in Mahāyāna Sūtras.
Its too bad. Shariputra is a great and inspiring figure in the Tripitaka. I've always appreciated the kindness and earnestness of his representations in SE Asian art.

Image

Buddha was less than affectionate to his son. It was Shariputra who was Rahula's nurturing caretaker.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:36 pm So, Shariputra was just wrong in his perception.

When you have to use so much ink to explain what something really is... :shrug:

But if such views encourage beings... who am I to argue?
This are the three main passages that Phakpa explains. First, in order to point out that he was teaching myriad bodhisattvas in the ocean:

As soon as Mañjuśrī Kumārabhūta said those words, many thousands of lotuses rose up into the sky from within the oceans. Many thousands of bodhisattvas were seated upon those lotuses. Then those bodhisattvas came through the sky to Vulture Peak and remained suspended in the sky above it. Mañjuśrī Kumārabhūta had guided all of them toward the highest, complete enlightenment. Those bodhisattvas who had previously entered the Mahāyāna praised the six perfections and the qualities of the Mahāyāna, while the bodhisattvas who had previously been śrāvakas praised the Śrāvakayāna. All of them knew the qualities of the Mahāyāna and the emptiness of all phenomena.

Then, the qualities of Sāgara's daughter, as we already discussed, are qualities of a tenth stage bodhisattva described at length in various sūtras, of those, these are included.

The daughter of Sāgara, king of the nāgas, said, “Venerable Śāriputra, if I have great miraculous power, I will attain the highest, complete enlightenment of perfect buddhahood even more quickly than that jewel was accepted.”

And:

That bodhisattva now went to the south and, in a southern world realm named Vimalā, manifested the attainment of perfect buddhahood while seated at the foot of a tree made of the seven precious materials.

Note, the future tense, "I will" and then the actual statement "manifested".

As mentioned above, a tenth stage bodhisattva has the power to demonstrate any form to any being to be tamed.

This raises the question, when does buddhahood begin? We have an answer, actually. According to Maitreyanātha, buddhahood begins on the tenth bhumi, as he says, because the gnosis beyond the ninth bhumi is the gnosis of a buddha. So, the "sudden awakening" of the daughter of Sāgara is just another one of your favorite things, it's an upaya, but that does not mean it ought to be taken literally.
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

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Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:33 pm
Queequeg wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:36 pm So, Shariputra was just wrong in his perception.

When you have to use so much ink to explain what something really is... :shrug:

But if such views encourage beings... who am I to argue?
This are the three main passages that Phakpa explains. First, in order to point out that he was teaching myriad bodhisattvas in the ocean:

As soon as Mañjuśrī Kumārabhūta said those words, many thousands of lotuses rose up into the sky from within the oceans. Many thousands of bodhisattvas were seated upon those lotuses. Then those bodhisattvas came through the sky to Vulture Peak and remained suspended in the sky above it. Mañjuśrī Kumārabhūta had guided all of them toward the highest, complete enlightenment. Those bodhisattvas who had previously entered the Mahāyāna praised the six perfections and the qualities of the Mahāyāna, while the bodhisattvas who had previously been śrāvakas praised the Śrāvakayāna. All of them knew the qualities of the Mahāyāna and the emptiness of all phenomena.

Then, the qualities of Sāgara's daughter, as we already discussed, are qualities of a tenth stage bodhisattva described at length in various sūtras, of those, these are included.

The daughter of Sāgara, king of the nāgas, said, “Venerable Śāriputra, if I have great miraculous power, I will attain the highest, complete enlightenment of perfect buddhahood even more quickly than that jewel was accepted.”

And:

That bodhisattva now went to the south and, in a southern world realm named Vimalā, manifested the attainment of perfect buddhahood while seated at the foot of a tree made of the seven precious materials.

Note, the future tense, "I will" and then the actual statement "manifested".

As mentioned above, a tenth stage bodhisattva has the power to demonstrate any form to any being to be tamed.

This raises the question, when does buddhahood begin? We have an answer, actually. According to Maitreyanātha, buddhahood begins on the tenth bhumi, as he says, because the gnosis beyond the ninth bhumi is the gnosis of a buddha. So, the "sudden awakening" of the daughter of Sāgara is just another one of your favorite things, it's an upaya, but that does not mean it ought to be taken literally.
Gotta love upaya. You can make a pie out of anything!

LOL

Like I said... spilling more ink to explain what was actually meant... like lawyers splitting hairs until precedents are revealed to mean the exact opposite of what they appear to mean. I like the interpolation of the snakes on flying lotuses. Maybe these are the UFOs people have been looking for.

Must be boring as F in a monastery. The mind is a skilled painter indeed.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:00 pm
Like I said... spilling more ink to explain what was actually meant... like lawyers splitting hairs until precedents are revealed to mean the exact opposite of what they appear to mean. I like the interpolation of the snakes on flying lotuses. Maybe these are the UFOs people have been looking for.

Must be boring as F in a monastery. The mind is a skilled painter indeed.
Well, in this case, more like Kublai's court...baiting Chinese subitists sounds like a fun pastime to me. ;-)
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

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Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:45 pm
Queequeg wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:00 pm
Like I said... spilling more ink to explain what was actually meant... like lawyers splitting hairs until precedents are revealed to mean the exact opposite of what they appear to mean. I like the interpolation of the snakes on flying lotuses. Maybe these are the UFOs people have been looking for.

Must be boring as F in a monastery. The mind is a skilled painter indeed.
Well, in this case, more like Kublai's court...baiting Chinese subitists sounds like a fun pastime to me. ;-)
trolling the old fashioned way - by correspondence. There weren't any courtesans to pass the time with?
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

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Queequeg wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:43 pm Zhiyi suggests that once one merely hears of Buddhanature - could be from a Buddha, or a teacher, or reading it in a text - one irreversibly enters the path. This is based on the Avatamsaka, Prajnaparamita and Lotus Sutras, among others. At that point one is still far from full blown buddhahood, but they are indelibly on the continuum. Zhiyi is arguably relevant here because the the major Japanese Pure Land schools are splinters from Tendai which claims lineage to Zhiyi.

As I understand, the approach of Japanese Pure Land schools is to accept that advancement or even hearing the teaching is impossible in Saha because we have entered the Degenerate Age. Accordingly, one relies on Amitabha's vows, particularly the 18th vow that all beings who call on Amitabha can be born in Sukhavati where his teachings endure. I believe Shinran was more philosophical about this than his teacher Honen, suggesting some possibility of immediate attainment of Sukhavati, but I'm admittedly not very familiar with the details.

Basically, Sukhavati is the sure thing, whereas everything else, the Sundry Practices, is basically futile.
The point Zhiyi points out is essentially the same as what Shinran is saying. That's why Shinjin is Buddha-nature. The biggest issue with Jōdo Shinshū is that people talk about Shinran endlessly without taking the time to properly read and understand him. Shinran nowhere suggests that there's immediate attainment of Sukhavati, only irreversibility. In all his letters he is clear that it occurs after death for one who has settled Shinjin.
LastLegend wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:25 pm I am not sure what sundry practice is. I am suspecting a large community of Buddhist whether east or west who relies on what they think is a self power path (which wasn’t never the case). Basically the issue is 1) they are trapped in Buddha nature or emptiness which given the final breakthrough there isn’t anything in it other the empty nature in its purest is what Daman Hongren said “to disappear consciousness” which has surpassed the 10th stages. I am suspecting this is what Zhen Li referring to the sundry practice 1) trapped in emptiness. 2) the Bodhisattva path on earth being dry. Dry in a sense that one has not been an accomplished Buddha like Amitabha (still remaining on earth no Pure Lands now rainbows no color nothing). I don’t think Zhen Li is aware that once surpassed the 10th stage, they have insights to transform themselves and others and have reached non-regression.
I have created an entire website on the Daśabhūmika. Do you think I am unaware of that? :coffee:

Sundry practice is simply anything other than the practice of the Buddha. That's why the Pure Land practice is the no-practice practice.
Queequeg wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:51 pm Zhen Li can speak for himself, but in the Japanese Pure Land schools, Sundry Practices pretty much means anything other than seeking rebirth in Sukhavati. Its a hardline position. It is a complete pessimism about the prospects for this life in this world. There's a reason there has been such strong kick back against it.

People talk themselves into all kinds of hopelessness.
There's also self-power Pure Land practice.

This is exactly why the Longer Sutra says: "most difficult of all difficulties is to hear this sutra, have faith in it with joy and hold fast to it. Nothing is more difficult than this. Thus have I formed my Dharma, thus have I expounded my Dharma, and thus have I taught my Dharma. You must receive it and practice it by the method prescribed."

Going is easy, but no one is born there.
Queequeg wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:20 pm
LastLegend wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:13 pm Vows…22, 42, and 48 are to deliver ordinary Bodhisattvas.

https://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/ ... 20vows.pdf
But they take as fact this is the Degenerate Age of Shakymuni's teaching and no bodhisattvas appear here. In their view, its like offering a lottery prize but not issuing any tickets. You're not experiencing dissonance. That's actually the doctrine they propagate.
You're utterly misrepresenting the facts. The 22nd vow is precisely the opposite and is known as the dedication of merit of return from the Pure Land. It means that bodhisattvas manifest themselves infinitely in all realms. This is also expressed in Shinran's Hymns of the Pure Land:

Those who reach the Pure Land of happiness
Return to this evil world of the five defilements,
Where, like the Buddha Shakyamuni,
They benefit sentient beings without limit.

Also, the 22nd vow establishes that "each of the bodhisattvas" in the Pure Land has immeasurable practices and the vows of Samantabhadra. Thus, they are not ordinary bodhisattvas (sorry LastLegend) but bodhisattvas beyond the ten bhūmis like Samantabhadra. As Shinran states in KGGS I:56, upon birth "the darkness of ignorance is immediately broken through, and quickly reaching the Land of Immeasurable Light, one realizes great nirvana (11th vow) and acts in accord with the vritues of Samantabhadra (22nd vow). Let this be known." Moreover, in Hymns of the Pure Land he states, "The supreme, perfect compassion of Buddhas is referred to by the name of the Bodhisattva Samantabhadra." So, these bodhisattvas, are manifestations of the same pure Buddhahood as Amitabha.

Vows 42 and 48 are benefits for bodhisattvas not yet born in Sukhavati. They're all about how you can obtain benefits even prior to being born.
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

Post by Queequeg »

Zhen Li wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:35 pm The point Zhiyi points out is essentially the same as what Shinran is saying.
Not quite. For Zhiyi, practice in Saha is efficacious. The other four stages, up to Buddhahood, are viable in Saha. I can see the similarity between Jodo/Shin and the stage of Hearing the Name, but that's not surprising since all of this came out of the Tendai world view. Nichiren had similar ideas.
You're utterly misrepresenting the facts. The 22nd vow is precisely the opposite and is known as the dedication of merit of return from the Pure Land. It means that bodhisattvas manifest themselves infinitely in all realms. This is also expressed in Shinran's Hymns of the Pure Land:

Those who reach the Pure Land of happiness
Return to this evil world of the five defilements,
Where, like the Buddha Shakyamuni,
They benefit sentient beings without limit.
I take you at your word.

In the end, Shin presupposes Mappo as the foundation. So does Nichiren, for that matter, who was reacting to Honen. Mappo requires too many suppositions.

I bow out.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

Post by Zhen Li »

Queequeg wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:55 pm Not quite. For Zhiyi, practice in Saha is efficacious. The other four stages, up to Buddhahood, are viable in Saha. I can see the similarity between Jodo/Shin and the stage of Hearing the Name, but that's not surprising since all of this came out of the Tendai world view. Nichiren had similar ideas.
You wrote, "once one merely hears of Buddhanature ... one irreversibly enters the path." I see this as hearing the Primal Vow with Shinjin, which renders irreversibility. So, one can interpret Shinran using a Tendai framework, but one needs to also know Shinran well enough before doing that.

Another point, you wrote, "the approach of Japanese Pure Land schools is to accept that advancement or even hearing the teaching is impossible in Saha because we have entered the Degenerate Age." This is also fundamentally counter to Jōdo Shinshū, for which the idea of "deeply listening" to the Dharma is essentially the only kind of active practice required on our part. This means listening, with reflection, to the words of the Dharma. Rennyō makes the point quite emphatically that one cannot just recite the Nembutsu and expect to be saved, one needs to have understanding.

As for advancement, what I can say is that even attaining the first bhūmi is beyond the realm of possibility for most people today. Note how on the first bhūmi, one must already have visions of trillions of buddhas, manifest hundreds of bodies, transform in countless ways, have great relinquishment and incorruptible faith (see in the Cleary trans. pp. 703-13).

What is reasonable, I think, is that by practising meditation one might calm one's mind, live a bit more tranquil and kindly from day to day, abandon doing at least some, if not all, of the 10 unwholesome deeds, and be able to uphold some precepts purely. I think that one might be able to attain some siddhis or advancement on the four stages of the śrāvakayāna, but that hardly gets us anywhere in the big picture. This picture of progress is entirely different the closer one is temporally to the Buddha—this is simply how the Dharma Ages work.

So, what I would say for people who want to mix, say, meditation and Pure Land is, if it's for self-help or secular improvement, that's fine, but one needs to have soteriological realism with regard to the goal and really reflect on what practice is going to seal the deal. We've had enough of messing around and playing with rituals. As Paul Roberts used to say, "it's Buddhahood or bust."

As for any good that one does after receiving Shinjin, one understands it as entirely the work of the Buddha. Hence, someone with Shinjin may engage in the ten wholesome ways of action, may manifest compassion, may enter samādhi, but it's seen as the compassionate influence of the Tathāgata's Other-Power.
Queequeg wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:55 pm In the end, Shin presupposes Mappo as the foundation. So does Nichiren, for that matter, who was reacting to Honen. Mappo requires too many suppositions.
In the big picture, Jōdo Shinshū suggests that all Buddhas attain Buddhahood through the same Dharmakāya. Shinran is emphatic about Jōdo Shinshū being Ekayāna. The manifestation it takes depends on the conditions of beings and is thus the compassionate working of the skilful means of the Dharmakāya. So, mappō is not the foundation of Jōdo Shinshū, Buddha-nature is the foundation. Mappō is simply the framework within which we have to manoeuvre—you need to look at the map of the terrain before you prior to taking your journey and deciding how to set out. To use the analogy that Nāgārjuna used: going overland versus going by boat. If the destination is at the end of a landmass, and there's a canal going right down the middle, do you walk, knowing that you will die before reaching the destination, or get in a boat and sail smoothly down the canal and reach it in no time? The choice is easy.
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

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Zhen Li wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:21 am In the big picture, Jōdo Shinshū suggests that all Buddhas attain Buddhahood through the same Dharmakāya.
Considering that the dharmakaya of all Buddhas is the same, that’s not much of a stretch.
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

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It’s glorious every time it’s expressed! Namo Buddhāya!
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