Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

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bowsamic
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Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

Post by bowsamic »

[Moderator's note: It is not appropriate to discuss within the Pureland subforum theories which deny Pureland doctrines.
Therefore this topic was moved to the wider umbrella of the Mahayana subforum.]



Hello all,

I have not been a Pure Land practitioner for that long, but I have read the shorter Pure Land sutra and some parts of works of Hōnen from https://www.rinkaian.jp/e. Obviously one feature throughout is that Pure Land is guaranteed or at least almost guaranteed by reciting Amitabha Buddhas name. However, I have been speaking to a lot of Mahayana practitioners, who also accept the three Pure Land sutras, and they seem to suggest they are taught to be sceptical about this. For example they say that while the sutra says reciting the name is enough, actually it isn't and the mind must also be purified. One person said that all pre-Hōnen or non-Japanese Pure Land commentaries are very sceptical about the power of Amitabha's vow and think that the vow does not assure Pure Land rebirth, however they have been unable to give sources on this. I am quite confused about the efficacy of it and most practitioners I speak to stop responding very soon on this matter (is it perhaps a sectarian sticking point?)

So, to non Japanese Mahayana practitioners who are taught about the Pure Land: are you taught that it is conditional on other efforts, and that the vow isn't enough, or are you taught that it is enough to just recite the name, or is it somewhere in between?

Namo Amida Butsu
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

I think “self-power” was the accepted common understanding up until Shinran Shonin (or perhaps Honin) introduced the idea of other-power, and that the emphasis (or insistence) on other-power is specifically what made (and makes) Jodo Shin Buddhism different from other schools.
Other-power came later, somewhat challenging the interpretation of the Amitabha Sutra as held by the self-power traditions.
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

Post by Constructelf »

Ven. Thubten Chodron, a Gelugpa nun, wrote on the subject here: https://thubtenchodron.org/2017/10/create-good-birth/

Below is an excerpt from the article talking about the four causes of Pure Land rebirth (edited for brevity).

In general, when they teach the practice, at least in Chinese Buddhism (and this doesn’t seem contradictory to me at all from the Tibetan viewpoint), they say that there are four causes for rebirth in Sukhāvatī.
  1. First is the aspiration to be reborn there. Clearly, if you don’t aspire for something it’s not going to happen because you won’t create the causes for it. So developing that aspiration. And we already talked about the benefits of that aspiration.
  2. The second is to visualize the Buddha and his pure land in our own mind as clearly as possible, because the more clearly that we can get it…. And clear doesn’t mean “okay, I see every crease in Amitabha’s robe….” It doesn’t mean that you’re so focused on the tiny details that you miss the point of feeling like you’re in the pure land sitting in Amitabha’s presence. That’s the real purpose of the visualization...
  3. The third is to avoid negative actions and to practice virtuous ones. That’s clear. If you want to get reborn in the pure land you can’t just go on and create lots of negative karma and think Amitabha’s going to appear to you at the time you die and all’s going to be well. It doesn’t work like that. We still have to create the cause for that...
  4. Then the fourth cause is to develop bodhicitta, which certainly makes a lot of sense. Doesn’t it? Yes, there are some sravaka arhats who are born there, but the Buddha’s nudging them there to develop bodhicitta. So when they do, then their lotuses open. But as much as we can create bodhicitta now then that much better off we’ll be in the future. And also, especially if you read the first chapter of Shantideva’s text “Engaging in the Bodhisattva’s Deeds,” that speak of the benefits of bodhicitta, then you see there’s nothing better in life than to develop bodhicitta. So you put your heart into that. And then you see how bodhicitta transforms your own life as well as transforms all the actions you do.
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Constructelf wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:10 pm Ven. Thubten Chodron, a Gelugpa nun, wrote on the subject here: https://thubtenchodron.org/2017/10/create-good-birth/

Below is an excerpt from the article talking about the four causes of Pure Land rebirth (edited for brevity).

In general, when they teach the practice, at least in Chinese Buddhism (and this doesn’t seem contradictory to me at all from the Tibetan viewpoint), they say that there are four causes for rebirth in Sukhāvatī.
  1. First is the aspiration to be reborn there. Clearly, if you don’t aspire for something it’s not going to happen because you won’t create the causes for it. So developing that aspiration. And we already talked about the benefits of that aspiration.
  2. The second is to visualize the Buddha and his pure land in our own mind as clearly as possible, because the more clearly that we can get it…. And clear doesn’t mean “okay, I see every crease in Amitabha’s robe….” It doesn’t mean that you’re so focused on the tiny details that you miss the point of feeling like you’re in the pure land sitting in Amitabha’s presence. That’s the real purpose of the visualization...
  3. The third is to avoid negative actions and to practice virtuous ones. That’s clear. If you want to get reborn in the pure land you can’t just go on and create lots of negative karma and think Amitabha’s going to appear to you at the time you die and all’s going to be well. It doesn’t work like that. We still have to create the cause for that...
  4. Then the fourth cause is to develop bodhicitta, which certainly makes a lot of sense. Doesn’t it? Yes, there are some sravaka arhats who are born there, but the Buddha’s nudging them there to develop bodhicitta. So when they do, then their lotuses open. But as much as we can create bodhicitta now then that much better off we’ll be in the future. And also, especially if you read the first chapter of Shantideva’s text “Engaging in the Bodhisattva’s Deeds,” that speak of the benefits of bodhicitta, then you see there’s nothing better in life than to develop bodhicitta. So you put your heart into that. And then you see how bodhicitta transforms your own life as well as transforms all the actions you do.
Yes, the Tibetan & Chinese traditions (Korean and Vietnamese I don’t know about) state that our various efforts and practices will direct us to rebirth in Sukhsvati. The Jodo Shu tradition (and Jodo Shin Shu) insist that all self-directed attempts are pointless; it is only through Amitabha’s compassion that beings are born there, even if they only recite Amitabha’s name ten times.
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

Post by bowsamic »

Constructelf wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:10 pm Ven. Thubten Chodron, a Gelugpa nun, wrote on the subject here: https://thubtenchodron.org/2017/10/create-good-birth/

Below is an excerpt from the article talking about the four causes of Pure Land rebirth (edited for brevity).

In general, when they teach the practice, at least in Chinese Buddhism (and this doesn’t seem contradictory to me at all from the Tibetan viewpoint), they say that there are four causes for rebirth in Sukhāvatī.
  1. First is the aspiration to be reborn there. Clearly, if you don’t aspire for something it’s not going to happen because you won’t create the causes for it. So developing that aspiration. And we already talked about the benefits of that aspiration.
  2. The second is to visualize the Buddha and his pure land in our own mind as clearly as possible, because the more clearly that we can get it…. And clear doesn’t mean “okay, I see every crease in Amitabha’s robe….” It doesn’t mean that you’re so focused on the tiny details that you miss the point of feeling like you’re in the pure land sitting in Amitabha’s presence. That’s the real purpose of the visualization...
  3. The third is to avoid negative actions and to practice virtuous ones. That’s clear. If you want to get reborn in the pure land you can’t just go on and create lots of negative karma and think Amitabha’s going to appear to you at the time you die and all’s going to be well. It doesn’t work like that. We still have to create the cause for that...
  4. Then the fourth cause is to develop bodhicitta, which certainly makes a lot of sense. Doesn’t it? Yes, there are some sravaka arhats who are born there, but the Buddha’s nudging them there to develop bodhicitta. So when they do, then their lotuses open. But as much as we can create bodhicitta now then that much better off we’ll be in the future. And also, especially if you read the first chapter of Shantideva’s text “Engaging in the Bodhisattva’s Deeds,” that speak of the benefits of bodhicitta, then you see there’s nothing better in life than to develop bodhicitta. So you put your heart into that. And then you see how bodhicitta transforms your own life as well as transforms all the actions you do.
Is there a primary source that justifies this? The thing that is confusing me is that I see people saying things like "you can’t just go on and create lots of negative karma and think Amitabha’s going to appear to you at the time you die and all’s going to be well. It doesn’t work like that." but it is not clear to me from the actual Pure Land sutras.

Here I am unfortunately getting the same responses here as I did on /r/Buddhism regarding these questions. People seem to have a lot of ideas given to them from their teachers about what needs to be done in addition to reciting Amitabha's name, however I haven't really seen it justified from the sutras.

I will make the question clearer: is there a solid argument based on the sutras that we should in any way doubt that recitation guarantees a Pure Land rebirth? That's what I'm struggling to find. I know a lot of well renowned teachers say that it isn't enough, but I am not sure on what basis they claim that, since of course I can find as many teachers (including mainland Pure Land) that do claim it is enough.

Additionally, the degree of this kind-of "efficacy skepticism" seems to depend on the specific country. I've only really spoken to Japanese, Vietnamese, Chinese, and Tibetan tradition followers. It seems that the Japanese followers are hardcore in claiming it is 100% effective, and some Chinese followers are too. Then there is a middle part where Chinese and Vietnamese followers generally seem to think it is fully effective, however still pursue other practises for various reasons. Finally teachers and practitioners of Tibetan Buddhism seem to be certain that it is not enough to recite the name.
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

bowsamic wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 11:39 am I will make the question clearer: is there a solid argument based on the sutras that we should in any way doubt that recitation guarantees a Pure Land rebirth? That's what I'm struggling to find. I know a lot of well renowned teachers say that it isn't enough, but I am not sure on what basis they claim that, since of course I can find as many teachers (including mainland Pure Land) that do claim it is enough.
I think the guarantee is mainly Shiran’s interpretation. There’s nothing in the sutras that says rebirth isn’t guaranteed simply by reciting the name. Nor in the Amitabha Sutras (there are two, the longer and the shorter) or the meditation sutra, is there anything that says there is a guarantee that just the ‘saying of the name’ (chanting, visualization, etc). alone is sufficient.
Shinran says it is.
There’s no reason to assume he’s wrong.
But of course, that also implies a lot of the things in that list posted above. A person who has no aspiration to be reborn in Sukhavati isn’t going to chant ‘namo amitabha’ anyway.
So, there’s no reason to assume that other views of the path to the pure land are wrong either.

It’s like walking, driving, or taking the bus.
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

Post by FiveSkandhas »

This is a delicate and complex question, and a fascinating one too, so I'm very glad the OP brought it up.

Rather than look at self power and other power directly for now, I find it more instructive to think of the move from relatively complex, multifaceted forms of practice to increasingly simpler acrivities centered around recitation of the Name.

Through this lens, the entire trajectory of pure land thought can be seen as moving from more complex to less complex practice, and from "mind" to "lips". The Pratyutpanna Samādhi Sutra is the earliest known text to mention the Buddha Amitabha and the pure land. Consider the following passage:

Bodhisattvas hear about the Buddha Amitabha and call him to mind again and again in this land. Because of this calling to mind, they see the Buddha Amitabha. Having seen him they ask him what dharmas it takes to be born in the realm of the Buddha Amitabha. Then the Buddha Amitabha says to these bodhisattvas: "If you wish to come and be born in my realm, you must always call me to mind again and again, you must always keep this thought in mind without letting up, and thus you will succeed in coming to be born in my realm.

As we can see, it is a form of mental activity that is central here, rather than a verbal calling of the Name.

Subsequent early pure land masters stressed many multiple factors necessary for entering the pure land. These include, for different masters, the cultivation of faith and virtue, an understanding about the nature of the pure land largely influenced by Yogacara thought, elaborate visualizations and daily liturgical rites sometimes involving repentance, and of course the repetition of the Name. Vasubandhu's Discourse on the Pure Land, for example, sets forth five types of activity necessary for birth in the pure land. It is only gradually that recitation of the Name begins to eclipse the other requirements.

A major tectonic shift came with Shan Tao. While incorporating the various required acts of earlier pure land masters in his liturgical works, he also speaks of the "exclusive practice", which "is to recite the Buddha's Name exclusively...." However he does qualify this to some extent by staying that such recitation requires the reciter also to "be mindful of, contemplate, worship and praise the Buddha and all the holy sages."

From Shan Tao's "exclusive practice" it is really only a hop, skip, and a jump to Master Honen's "recitation alone" without the need for any of Shan Tao's concurrent mental augmentation. Nevertheless, although Honen states many times that simple people should just focus on reciting the Name, he does devote a great deal of his writing to describing the "threefold devotional heart", a suite of attitudes to be cultivated. Resolving this not-entirely-simple inner rectification of heart-mind with the injunction to "just chant" may rest uneasily with some, although Honen tries to close the gap by noting that the "right" kind of pure recitation contains the threefold devotional heart fully and automatically.

With Master Honen's disciple Master Shinran, the concept of the Name recited purely in "other power" reaches what many see to be its zenith, jettisoning what may be considered as subtle traces of self-powered mental effort still lingering in Honen's Nenbutsu. Rather than try to do justice to Master Shinran's towering genius, which draws on the entire Mahayana Corpus, I will just urge you to drop everything right this minute and read his magnum opus, the Kyogyoshinsho. Preferably, take a year or two. No, really. Even to my Vajrayana friends with no deep interest in Japanese pure land: please consider a plunge into its depths. It really is that good. Not without reason had it been called by some (well, mostly pure landers, to be frank) "the Crown of the Mahayana."

Beyond even the magnificence of Master Shinran, however, lies another much lesser-known thinker who, to my mind, caps pure land thought in its ultimate form: Master Ippen, founder of Japan's tiny Jishu sect.

You see, a central part of Master Shinran's thought involved the need for shinjin (信心), traditionally (but tragically, imho) translated as "faith" but best left untranslated, given the heavy Abrahamic baggage of the English word. While "faith" is self-generated through inner struggle in the heart of a Christian, shinjin is a gift from Amida-sama to the practitioner, transferred through the classical Mahayana shunyata that unifies limited illusory self and perfected Buddha Amitabha.

It seems that through his conception of shinjin rooted in emptiness, Master Shinran had reached the ultimate in "other power" and eliminated the reliance on self-generated visualization, self-strengthened belief, and other behavior both inner and outer that had characterized earlier pure land praxis. And perhaps indeed this evaluation remains valid.

But to Master Ippen, here there still clung the faint whiff of something mental and called up by one's own efforts, even if it was pure surrender to Amida-sama's other power. Master Ippen took the leap beyond even shinjin, claiming that Master Shinran's surrender was a subtle form of self-effort and that the pure physical mouthing of the Name as a raw bodily act was the ultimate in purity, with or without a shard of conviction or concern over whether or not one had properly surrendered.

With Ippen, the Name itself becomes the ultimate, the bridge connecting Amida-sama and the practitioner so intimately that the identity of both dissolves in "namu-amida-butsu." "Discard, Discard!" he often shouted as he wandered the land homeless with a small band or devotees. Make the Nenbutsu a pure physical reflex, and in so doing lose all trace of self and other.

In this progression, then, we can see the evolution of Pure Land Buddhism to something almost entirely based on inner visualization, moral cultivation, and attitudinal self-perfection to a pure physical act performed by a postulant emptied of self and immersed in the shunyata that is neither "I" nor "Amida" but simply the Name itself. (The fact that Master Ippen at one point received recognition of enlightenment under a Rinzai Master perhaps goes a long way toward explaining his deeply somatic, no-mind-no-self style of Nenbutsu, to me at least.)

How did we get from there to here? To understand, we must take a close look at the word "Nenbutsu"/"Nianfo" (念仏 / 念佛) itself.

(Post to be continued below)
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

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(continued from above)

The characters 念仏 / 念佛 are now almost universally associated with the chanting of the Name, but in fact it was not always so clear-cut. The first character, 念 (nian (Ch) or nen (J)) can be read as "to think about", "to contemplate", or "to read [or recite] aloud". This early-medieval ambiguity means that there was a lot of latitude when interpreting what the Sutras and classic texts meant when the discussed ways to attain rebirth in the pure land.

And the earliest of the Pure Land thinkers came of age in a time when Bodhisattvas were expected to put a bit more elbow-grease into things in general than merely chanting. Practices such as the arousal of Bodhicitta and faith, and the upholding of vows, were assumed naturally to apply to Bodhisattvas all, and thus be a prerequisite for pure land entry by the Bodhisattvas so frequently mentioned in the Vows.

Moreover, early pure land thought emerged at a time when Yogacara was very much in vogue. "Thinking" and "contemplating" were of course more naturally congruent with "mind only" thought than reading or recitation per se.

One can see, then, how it would be almost automatic for early thinkers under such conditions to assume that various forms of heavy mental activity were naturally implied in pure land practice.

Another important term was 浄業, which was perhaps a bit unusual to many thinkers of the time, but is used in the Meditation Sutra in connection with "practices and attitudes" that will lead to rebirth in the pure land. The early pure land thinker Chewu chose to render this as "pure karma," thereby attaching the nuance of a heavy moral requirement to entry into the pure land.

And while we are on the topic of the Meditation Sutra itself, it was only much later when the emphasis on recitation above all else set in that it came to be interpreted in Jodo Shinshu mode as "meant to point to and encourage chanting." On the face of it, reading it at face value and taking it literally, it would seem to most readers to be a very explicit manual of step-by-step visualization exercises, would it not? Far be it from me to slander later Masters by claiming that it might have taken a bit of mental contortion to tease out the Orthodox "hidden meaning" from what could appear at first glance to be text setting forth a visualization exercise first and foremost. My own vows and devotions would never permit such a comment, needless to say. But perhaps others might come to such un-Shinshu-like readings of the sutra.

There are other examples of ambiguity in expression too...working off these assumptions and readings, early pure land thinkers wrote their own devotional texts, such as the gorgeous personal visualizations of Vasubandhu's Jodoron. These in turn influenced others, and a growing set of assumptions became ever-more entrenched.

So perhaps we can see the source of the non-chanting pure land tradition a bit. And perhaps some might even feel the natural tendency would be to practice with visualizations and other devotions, with "recitation alone" being the more counterintuitive interpretation arising after many centuries, most conspicuously in the era of Kamakura Buddhism where many ancient traditions saw radical simplification and streamlining, justified or not.
Last edited by FiveSkandhas on Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

Post by Malcolm »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:20 pm Ippen,
Def. my favorite pure land guy.
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

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Malcolm wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:29 pm
FiveSkandhas wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:20 pm Ippen,
Def. my favorite pure land guy.
You never fail to impress me as a man of refined intellectual taste. Ippen is definitely for gourmets.

As an aside, I'm scheduled to go to the Jishu head temple tomorrow as it so happens, and I will quite possibly be buried at my in-law's ancestral Jishu temple, where they are registered among the dwindling number of danka followers of Master Ippen's way.
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

Post by Malcolm »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:35 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:29 pm
FiveSkandhas wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:20 pm Ippen,
Def. my favorite pure land guy.
You never fail to impress me as a man of refined intellectual taste. Ippen is definitely for gourmets.

As an aside, I'm scheduled to go to the Jishu head temple tomorrow as it so happens, and I will quite possibly be buried at my in-law's ancestral Jishu temple, where they are registered among the dwindling number of danka followers of Master Ippen's way.
I first read No Abode thirty-three years ago or so. I still have a copy.
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

Post by bowsamic »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:57 pm is there anything that says there is a guarantee that just the ‘saying of the name’ (chanting, visualization, etc). alone is sufficient.
Well, yeah, the Primal vow right?
If, when I attain Buddhahood, sentient beings in the lands of the ten quarters who sincerely and joyfully entrust themselves to me, desire to be born in my land, and call my Name, even ten times, should not be born there, may I not attain perfect Enlightenment. Excluded, however, are those who commit the five gravest offences and abuse the right Dharma.[2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primal_Vow

I think that's quite clear to me. Sorry for not reading and responding to the rest of the comments. I will get to them later.
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

Post by 明安 Myoan »

Honen taught that reciting Nembutsu while believing in birth in the Pure Land naturally gives rise to the Three Minds and Four Modes of Practice.
These include aspects such as sincerity of heart, faith in the buddhas, venerating the Three Jewels and all holy beings, and so forth. These Minds and Modes support Nembutsu; Nembutsu supports these Minds and Modes.

Also, reciting Amida Buddha's name is one of Five Right Practices recommended by Master Shantao and Honen Shonin.
The others are: reciting the Pure Land Sutras, making offerings to Amida Buddha, worshipping him, and contemplating him.
So "Exclusive nembutsu" is from the standpoint of faith.
From the standpoint of practice, none of us is likely attain Nembutsu-Samadhi, so we have to rely on Honen and Shantao's advice for maintaining continuous, life-long practice.
Honen wrote that we should make our lifestyles supportive of nembutsu, adapting to our conditions when necessary.
This, too, is a form of purifying.

Honen further wrote that, although all classes of beings can be born in the Pure Land, we should aspire not to commit even small harms; that attempting to correct our faults can show sincerity of heart; and that continuous recitation nurtures a close, karmic relationship with Amida Buddha that transforms our nature, like broken tiles and pebbles turned to gold.

Honen's teachings can be explored in greater depth in his Senchakushu.
You can download a free PDF copy from the BDK.
Although his practice recommendation is simple, there is depth and theory to explore, which can help deepen your confidence in the method.

Finally, other works, such as Dialogues with Ancient Masters, or Buddhism of Wisdom and Faith, have very good explanations of points of doubt regarding Pure Land practice. Here is such a chapter.
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

Aside from Shinran/Honen

Patriarch Yin Kuangs letters are definitely worth reading

https://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/yin_kuang.pdf
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

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:good: :twothumbsup:
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

Post by Constructelf »

bowsamic wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 11:39 am
Constructelf wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:10 pm Ven. Thubten Chodron, a Gelugpa nun, wrote on the subject here: https://thubtenchodron.org/2017/10/create-good-birth/

Below is an excerpt from the article talking about the four causes of Pure Land rebirth (edited for brevity).

In general, when they teach the practice, at least in Chinese Buddhism (and this doesn’t seem contradictory to me at all from the Tibetan viewpoint), they say that there are four causes for rebirth in Sukhāvatī.
  1. First is the aspiration to be reborn there. Clearly, if you don’t aspire for something it’s not going to happen because you won’t create the causes for it. So developing that aspiration. And we already talked about the benefits of that aspiration.
  2. The second is to visualize the Buddha and his pure land in our own mind as clearly as possible, because the more clearly that we can get it…. And clear doesn’t mean “okay, I see every crease in Amitabha’s robe….” It doesn’t mean that you’re so focused on the tiny details that you miss the point of feeling like you’re in the pure land sitting in Amitabha’s presence. That’s the real purpose of the visualization...
  3. The third is to avoid negative actions and to practice virtuous ones. That’s clear. If you want to get reborn in the pure land you can’t just go on and create lots of negative karma and think Amitabha’s going to appear to you at the time you die and all’s going to be well. It doesn’t work like that. We still have to create the cause for that...
  4. Then the fourth cause is to develop bodhicitta, which certainly makes a lot of sense. Doesn’t it? Yes, there are some sravaka arhats who are born there, but the Buddha’s nudging them there to develop bodhicitta. So when they do, then their lotuses open. But as much as we can create bodhicitta now then that much better off we’ll be in the future. And also, especially if you read the first chapter of Shantideva’s text “Engaging in the Bodhisattva’s Deeds,” that speak of the benefits of bodhicitta, then you see there’s nothing better in life than to develop bodhicitta. So you put your heart into that. And then you see how bodhicitta transforms your own life as well as transforms all the actions you do.
Is there a primary source that justifies this? The thing that is confusing me is that I see people saying things like "you can’t just go on and create lots of negative karma and think Amitabha’s going to appear to you at the time you die and all’s going to be well. It doesn’t work like that." but it is not clear to me from the actual Pure Land sutras.

Here I am unfortunately getting the same responses here as I did on /r/Buddhism regarding these questions. People seem to have a lot of ideas given to them from their teachers about what needs to be done in addition to reciting Amitabha's name, however I haven't really seen it justified from the sutras.

I will make the question clearer: is there a solid argument based on the sutras that we should in any way doubt that recitation guarantees a Pure Land rebirth? That's what I'm struggling to find. I know a lot of well renowned teachers say that it isn't enough, but I am not sure on what basis they claim that, since of course I can find as many teachers (including mainland Pure Land) that do claim it is enough.

Additionally, the degree of this kind-of "efficacy skepticism" seems to depend on the specific country. I've only really spoken to Japanese, Vietnamese, Chinese, and Tibetan tradition followers. It seems that the Japanese followers are hardcore in claiming it is 100% effective, and some Chinese followers are too. Then there is a middle part where Chinese and Vietnamese followers generally seem to think it is fully effective, however still pursue other practises for various reasons. Finally teachers and practitioners of Tibetan Buddhism seem to be certain that it is not enough to recite the name.
(Are you /u/LonelyStruggle? Hi! I'm /u/Psyzhran2357)

As far as I can tell, the four causes for Sukhavati rebirth framework that Tibetan traditions use comes from the Gandavyuha (chapter 39 of the Avatamasaka Sutra). There's a section of the Gandavyuha called the "King of Prayers" or "The Extraordinary Aspiration of the Practice of Samantabhadra" that's commonly recited in Tibetan liturgies; part of that prayer touches on the conditions to be reborn in Sukhavati.There was another topic on the causes of Sukhavati rebirth back in September and the user Malcolm (Acarya Malcolm Smith) posted the following excerpts from the King of Prayers.
Malcolm wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:46 pm
Those who make this heartfelt aspiration for the bodhisattva way Will be free of all lower rebirths,
Free of harmful companions,
And will quickly see Amitabha, Infinite Light.

............................

When the moment of my death arrives,
By eliminating all obscurations
And directly perceiving Amitabha,
May I go immediately to Sukhavati, Pure Land of Great Joy.

Having gone to Sukhavati,
May I actualize the meaning of these aspirations,
Fulfilling them all without exception,
For the benefit of beings for as long as this world endures.
Born from an extremely beautiful, superlative lotus In this joyful land,
the Buddha’s magnificent mandala,
May I receive a prediction of my awakening
Directly from the Buddha Amitabha.

..............................................

Through creating limitless positive potential
By dedicating this prayer of Samantabhadra’s deeds,
May all beings drowning in this torrent of suffering,
Enter the presence of Amitabha.

Through this king of aspirations, which is the greatest of the sublime,
Helping infinite wanderers in samsara,
Through the accomplishment of this scripture dazzling with
Samantabhadra’s practice,
May suffering realms be utterly emptied of all beings
https://fpmt.org/wp-content/uploads/pra ... ers_c5.pdf

The aforementioned four causes of birth in Sukhavati are complete in this aspiration prayer, which is found at the end of the Gandhavyuha, and provides the overall framework for all Tibetan Buddhist liturgies and practices.
Chapter 2 of the Pratyutpanna Samadhi Sutra also describes Amitabha practice, and the importance of keeping vows and precepts while doing the practice. This text was one of the earliest mentions of Amitabha (if not the very first that we currently know of and still have the text for).
In this way, Bhadrapāla: if there are any monks or nuns, laymen or laywomen who keep the precepts in their entirety, they should settle down somewhere all alone and call to mind the presence of Amitābha Buddha in the western quarter; then, in accordance with what they have learned, they should reflect that a thousand million myriad buddha fields away from here, in his land called Sukhāvatī, in the midst of a host of bodhisattvas, he is preaching the sutras. Let them all constantly call to mind Amitābha Buddha.

...

In the same way, Bhadrapāla, bodhisattvas, whether they are ascetics or wearers of white (i.e., laypeople), having learned of the buddha field of
Amitābha in the western quarter, should call to mind the buddha in that quarter. They should not break the precepts and call him to mind singlemindedly, either for one day and one night, or for seven days and seven nights. After seven days they will see Amitābha Buddha. If they do not see him while in the waking state, then they will see him in a dream.

...

In the same way, Bhadrapāla, bodhisattvas hear about Amitābha Buddha and call him to mind again and again in this land. Because of this calling to mind, they see Amitābha Buddha. Having seen him, they ask him what dharmas it takes to be born in the realm of Amitābha Buddha. Then Amitābha Buddha says to these bodhisattvas:

If you wish to come and be born in my realm, you must always call me to mind again and again, you must always keep this thought in mind without letting up, and thus you will succeed in coming to be born in my realm.
https://bdkamerica.org/product/the-prat ... dhi-sutra/ (There's a free pdf download)
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:29 pm
FiveSkandhas wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:20 pm Ippen,
Def. my favorite pure land guy.
Mine too. The book, No Abode I can read again and again. And have.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:20 pm
With Master Honen's disciple Master Shinran, the concept of the Name recited purely in "other power" reaches what many see to be its zenith, jettisoning what may be considered as subtle traces of self-powered mental effort still lingering in Honen's Nenbutsu.
During the last century, even Shinran was surpassed, with the invention of the 念佛機, the battery operated Buddhist chanting machine. No participation by the practitioner is even required, excerpt to turn the device on.
The question remains, however, as to whether or not having done all the work, the batteries go to the pure land when they finally die.
:rolling:
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Zhen Li
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

Post by Zhen Li »

Just to go back to the original question,
bowsamic wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:09 pm So, to non Japanese Mahayana practitioners who are taught about the Pure Land: are you taught that it is conditional on other efforts, and that the vow isn't enough, or are you taught that it is enough to just recite the name, or is it somewhere in between?
I have experience in Chinese Pure Land, and the topic of self versus other power really does not come up. But among those who are devoted to nianfo, in the tradition I was practising, I don't think there is really any doubt that you needed just to recite a lot. There are some who also emphasise faith, but not really with the same level of theorising that Shinran puts into it. That other practices can support the ability to be born is taken for granted, but I don't think they are causally linked. The main difference with Jodo Shinshu (my current practice) is that in other traditions the recitation, or hearing, of the nianfo at death is taken to be very important. While there are vows that emphasise the moment of death, its absence in the 18th vow is what made me move away from that view.

As for the question of the general skepticism, or what in Jodo Shinshu we would call "presuming upon the Vow," that we see across Mahāyāna, in my opinion, this is not actually thought through. I don't think people go through the vows or read a commentary and come to these conclusions—they just use their instinct about how Buddhism should work, and how karma should work, and just assume that of course, it cannot be enough just to recite nianfo or just have faith.

On Thubten Chodron's comments, I want to actually suggest that she is not all that different from Shinran. She is just framing things in terms of self-power:

Ponts 1 and 4 are inherent in Shinjin, i.e. aspiration and bodhicitta.

Her point 2, about visualisation, is very incisive. It's not about visualising details, but about feeling that you are in Amitābha's presence. While I would not use the term "feeling" because that denotes saṃsāric phenomena, the actual knowledge of presence is also inherent in Shinjin and the Nembutsu that we recite. Amitābha is ultimately formless. If we have visual ideas of him, that's fine, and it is important to rely on skilful means to develop faith, but his presence is in the Nembutsu.

Her 3rd point is also something that occupies a lot of Shinran's time in the Tannishō. The point is that the evil person is saved, not that the Vow permits evil. That being said, evil deeds cannot obstruct birth—they also cannot cause it. The idea that good deeds are the cause for birth is actually birth through the Twentieth Vow. So it is not wrong, it is just a path that results in birth in the borderland.

So, I could see her words as a skilful means, they can help beings attain birth—though they may not be definitive. People whose karma draws them to Vajrayāna are definitely not ready for Shinran just yet, so she really cannot say anything else. If she taught birth through the Eighteenth Vow, people would give rise to doubt and slander the Dharma causing themselves harm.
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