Are Oysters Sentient? (Split from Giving up Masturbation)

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
amanitamusc
Posts: 2124
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:32 am

Re: Are Oysters Sentient? (Split from Giving up Masturbation)

Post by amanitamusc »

Toenail wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:53 pm Would you eat live oysters?
If you are buying.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Are Oysters Sentient? (Split from Giving up Masturbation)

Post by Malcolm »

Toenail wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:53 pm Would you eat live oysters?
Of course. On the half shell is the best way.
Natan
Posts: 3685
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Are Oysters Sentient? (Split from Giving up Masturbation)

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:56 pm
Toenail wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:42 pm So sentience etc is depended on central nervous system and sense organs? Then do spirits or devas not have sentience? Because they do not have a central nervous system? I always thought animals like that are experience very heavy dullness karma like being absorbed in dull shamatha for many years or so. And now they are some weird dull sponge livigg for 1000s of years floating in the ocean or an oyster living in darkness etc.
We are talking about the physically embodied. Devas have physical bodies, actually, feel sensations, etc. Please consult chapter three of the Kośa on this point. So-called spirits, on the other hand, are disembodied, having no form, etc.

The point is that where the line is drawn between sentience/nonsentience is very ambiguous. If oysters can't think, etc., they are not sentient. I don't think they can think, YMMV. I don't think they possess minds. The Buddha is not around to ask anymore.
And Vasubandhu knew this because of some other book? Show me a deva I'll give you a cigar
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 9439
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Are Oysters Sentient? (Split from Giving up Masturbation)

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Toenail wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:53 pm Would you eat live oysters?
I’ve never had the slightest interest in eating any bivalves. No thank you.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
PeterC
Posts: 5191
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:38 pm

Re: Are Oysters Sentient? (Split from Giving up Masturbation)

Post by PeterC »

Toenail wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:53 pm Would you eat live oysters?
There are so many things that taste better and have a much lower chance of making you sick. Oysters are a bit like caviar, they're popular for no particularly good reason
amanitamusc
Posts: 2124
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:32 am

Re: Are Oysters Sentient? (Split from Giving up Masturbation)

Post by amanitamusc »

PeterC wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 4:27 am
Toenail wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:53 pm Would you eat live oysters?
There are so many things that taste better and have a much lower chance of making you sick. Oysters are a bit like caviar, they're popular for no particularly good reason
Different strokes.i prefer them on the half shell.If one is a swollower then there is not much taste compared to a chewing.I masticate befoe i swollow, delish.The only time i got sick from sea food was when i had new england clam showder in Key West.
User avatar
Sonam Wangchug
Posts: 427
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:26 pm

Re: Are Oysters Sentient? (Split from Giving up Masturbation)

Post by Sonam Wangchug »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:34 pm
Sonam Wangchug wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:31 pm Sentient and have Buddha nature.

Killing them to eat would contradict the refuge vows.
Not sentient and no buddha nature.

Eating them does not contradict the commitments of refuge.
Well, it may surprise you to know that at least one of your teachers disagrees.

Khenchen Namdrol Rinpoche quoting Patrul Rinpoche in his commentary on the words of my pefect teacher says

"Some animals have valuable skins, like leopards and tigers, and
others have valuable fur. They are all killed because of the nature of their
bodies.
As Patrul Rinpoche details:
Oysters are killed for their pearls; elephants for their tusks and bones;
tigers, leopards, otters, and foxes for their fur; musk deer for their
musk; wild asses and yaks for their flesh and blood. Their very own
bodies are the causes of their death. This is great suffering, "

Since you are a Buddhist teacher and your misinformed opinion could the death of sentient beings and cause other Buddhists to go against their vows, why don't you, instead of putting up authoritative statements like they are not sentient which contradicts various Buddhist Teachers I have heard, do the sensible and ethical thing and email a teachers whose opinion you regard someone like HHST to clarify. It's the humble thing to do.

Or maybe sometimes say "I don't know" it's not so hard to do.
"To have confidence in the teacher is the ultimate refuge." -Rigzin Jigme Lingpa
PeterC
Posts: 5191
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:38 pm

Re: Are Oysters Sentient? (Split from Giving up Masturbation)

Post by PeterC »

Sonam Wangchug wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 12:57 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:34 pm
Sonam Wangchug wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:31 pm Sentient and have Buddha nature.

Killing them to eat would contradict the refuge vows.
Not sentient and no buddha nature.

Eating them does not contradict the commitments of refuge.
Well, it may surprise you to know that at least one of your teachers disagrees.

Khenchen Namdrol Rinpoche quoting Patrul Rinpoche in his commentary on the words of my pefect teacher says

"Some animals have valuable skins, like leopards and tigers, and
others have valuable fur. They are all killed because of the nature of their
bodies.
As Patrul Rinpoche details:
Oysters are killed for their pearls; elephants for their tusks and bones;
tigers, leopards, otters, and foxes for their fur; musk deer for their
musk; wild asses and yaks for their flesh and blood. Their very own
bodies are the causes of their death. This is great suffering, "

Since you are a Buddhist teacher and your misinformed opinion could the death of sentient beings and cause other Buddhists to go against their vows, why don't you, instead of putting up authoritative statements like they are not sentient which contradicts various Buddhist Teachers I have heard, do the sensible and ethical thing and email a teachers whose opinion you regard someone like HHST to clarify. It's the humble thing to do.

Or maybe sometimes say "I don't know" it's not so hard to do.
if you take Patrul Rinpoche’s view as authoritative, where does that authority come from - how many oysters do you think he had seen in his life?
User avatar
Könchok Thrinley
Former staff member
Posts: 3275
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:18 am
Location: He/Him from EU

Re: Are Oysters Sentient? (Split from Giving up Masturbation)

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Oysters are clearly an animal and a living thing. Just see what wikipedia says on their anatomy and how it is described:
Oysters are filter feeders, drawing water in over their gills through the beating of cilia. Suspended plankton and particles are trapped in the mucus of a gill, and from there are transported to the mouth, where they are eaten, digested, and expelled as feces or pseudofeces. Oysters feed most actively at temperatures above 10 °C (50 °F). An oyster can filter up to 5 L (1+1⁄4 US gal) of water per hour. Chesapeake Bay's once-flourishing oyster population historically filtered excess nutrients from the estuary's entire water volume every three to four days. Today, it would take nearly a year.[8] Excess sediment, nutrients, and algae can result in the eutrophication of a body of water. Oyster filtration can mitigate these pollutants.

In addition to their gills, oysters can also exchange gases across their mantles, which are lined with many small, thin-walled blood vessels. A small, three-chambered heart, lying under the adductor muscle, pumps colorless blood to all parts of the body. At the same time, two kidneys, located on the underside of the muscle, remove waste products from the blood. Their nervous system includes two pairs of nerve cords and three pairs of ganglia.

While some oysters have two sexes (European oyster and Olympia oyster), their reproductive organs contain both eggs and sperm. Because of this, it is technically possible for an oyster to fertilize its own eggs. The gonads surround the digestive organs, and are made up of sex cells, branching tubules, and connective tissue.

Once the female is fertilized, she discharges millions of eggs into the water. The larvae develop in about six hours and exist suspended in the water column as veliger larvae for two to three weeks before settling on a bed and maturing to sexual adulthood within a year.
Which plant has kidneys, blood vessels, hearts, etc?

There is a reasearch which found out that oysters respond to sound, apparently perceiving sound https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5656301/ .

While sure their nervous system is not as developed as ours or some other lower animals, however that does not mean they are not alive and perceiving with their limited capabilities.
The neuron count of an animal can suggest whether or not that animal has enough complexity to support consciousness. We know sentience comes about from the interaction of neurons but we do not know how large a number might be required. Smaller animals do not require as many neurons as larger animals to perform the same functions. This is because smaller nervous systems are more compact. There are fewer neurons involved in each neuron circuit, so smaller animals can perform operations more quickly. In addition, many of the neurons of larger animals are needed to facilitate their much larger bodies and their much larger sensory fields. Because of this increased efficiency, the minds of small animals may be able to support sentience with a much smaller than expected number of neurons. Small clams have around 6,000 neurons. Garden snails have around 60,000 neurons in their whole nervous system. Aplysia have around 18,000 neurons throughout their nervous system. For reference, common octopuses have half a billion neurons throughout their nervous system, and dogs have 2.25 billion.
Source: https://www.animal-ethics.org/snails-an ... sentience/
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

- Arya Sanghata Sutra
PeterC
Posts: 5191
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:38 pm

Re: Are Oysters Sentient? (Split from Giving up Masturbation)

Post by PeterC »

Would a triffid be considered sentient?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Day_of_the_Triffids
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Are Oysters Sentient? (Split from Giving up Masturbation)

Post by Malcolm »

Sonam Wangchug wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 12:57 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:34 pm
Sonam Wangchug wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:31 pm Sentient and have Buddha nature.

Killing them to eat would contradict the refuge vows.
Not sentient and no buddha nature.

Eating them does not contradict the commitments of refuge.
Well, it may surprise you to know that at least one of your teachers disagrees.
Some Buddhist schools argue that causing an abortion is a parajika, other schools disagree.
Since you are a Buddhist teacher and your misinformed opinion could the death of sentient beings and cause other Buddhists to go against their vows, why don't you, instead of putting up authoritative statements like they are not sentient which contradicts various Buddhist Teachers I have heard, do the sensible and ethical thing and email a teachers whose opinion you regard someone like HHST to clarify. It's the humble thing to do.
I am not telling people to eat oysters. People are free to eat what they want according to their own conscience. I personally think it is fine. You disagree.
Könchok Thrinley wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 1:55 pm Oysters are clearly an animal and a living thing. Just see what wikipedia says on their anatomy and how it is described:
Plants are clearly living things too, with anatomy, physiology, gender, and so on, the ability to communicate the presence of threats from disease, insects, etc., share nutrients with ailing plants in within their reach, and so on.

There is a reasearch which found out that oysters respond to sound, apparently perceiving sound
Plants respond to sound as well.
The neuron count of an animal can suggest whether or not that animal has enough complexity to support consciousness.
So now we are depending upon physicalism to define sentience?
Jesse
Posts: 2127
Joined: Wed May 08, 2013 6:54 am
Location: Virginia, USA

Re: Are Oysters Sentient? (Split from Giving up Masturbation)

Post by Jesse »

It is my humble opinion that both Oysters, and plants are sentient. There is plenty of evidence to that effect, and the more evidence that is produced, the more it aligns that all life forms are sentient.

The question we should be asking, imo: are other sentient lifeforms; no matter how different; deserving of the same respect we generally afford to other humans?

Whales, Crows, Elephants, Dolphins, and other members of Hominidae, are all typically treated as if they are lesser beings, incapable of suffering, incapable of thought, emotion, etc..

Science has proved all of these notions flat out wrong, and yet we still treat them in the same manner as we did before our knowledge advanced.

The question then becomes, do we actually care if these beings are sentient? Would we change our behavior in response to knowing ?

The answer from what I have observed is, No.


Go outside, find any organism that people would not normally consider sentient,

Perform a few experiments:

Put subject in harms way - does it attempt to avoid harm to itself?

1. it moves to avoid harm, or performs other self protective behavior.(Defense stance, or Aggression) -- Then It is Self aware, feels pain, and understands life-death dichotomy.

2. It didn't do anything to avoid harm -- These don't exist. -- Even plants respond to threats to themselves, and not only protect themselves, they also release chemicals that alert their nearby neighbors of the threat, attempting to protect it's community. (even unrelated plants)


https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science- ... 180968084/

Now, knowing that pretty much everything in the universe is essentially sentient, conscious, or aware in some capacity or manner, the truth nature of the universe reveals it'self.

Pure Suffering. Suffering as far as the eye can see, as far as the ear can hear, as far as the mind can travel.

Life is maintained at the expense of other lives. Walking is accomplished with genocide as it's result, moving about your enormous body, entire worlds shake, beings die in uncountable numbers.

That is reality.

I see two reasonable ways to proceed, humility and acceptance,

or Madness.

I chose the latter.
Image
Thus shall ye think of all this fleeting world:
A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream;
A flash of lightning in a summer cloud,
A flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream.
Natan
Posts: 3685
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Are Oysters Sentient? (Split from Giving up Masturbation)

Post by Natan »

Jesse wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 5:09 pm It is my humble opinion that both Oysters, and plants are sentient. There is plenty of evidence to that effect, and the more evidence that is produced, the more it aligns that all life forms are sentient.

The question we should be asking, imo: are other sentient lifeforms; no matter how different; deserving of the same respect we generally afford to other humans?

Whales, Crows, Elephants, Dolphins, and other members of Hominidae, are all typically treated as if they are lesser beings, incapable of suffering, incapable of thought, emotion, etc..

Science has proved all of these notions flat out wrong, and yet we still treat them in the same manner as we did before our knowledge advanced.

The question then becomes, do we actually care if these beings are sentient? Would we change our behavior in response to knowing ?

The answer from what I have observed is, No.


Go outside, find any organism that people would not normally consider sentient,

Perform a few experiments:

Put subject in harms way - does it attempt to avoid harm to itself?

1. it moves to avoid harm, or performs other self protective behavior.(Defense stance, or Aggression) -- Then It is Self aware, feels pain, and understands life-death dichotomy.

2. It didn't do anything to avoid harm -- These don't exist. -- Even plants respond to threats to themselves, and not only protect themselves, they also release chemicals that alert their nearby neighbors of the threat, attempting to protect it's community. (even unrelated plants)


https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science- ... 180968084/

Now, knowing that pretty much everything in the universe is essentially sentient, conscious, or aware in some capacity or manner, the truth nature of the universe reveals it'self.

Pure Suffering. Suffering as far as the eye can see, as far as the ear can hear, as far as the mind can travel.

Life is maintained at the expense of other lives. Walking is accomplished with genocide as it's result, moving about your enormous body, entire worlds shake, beings die in uncountable numbers.

That is reality.

I see two reasonable ways to proceed, humility and acceptance,

or Madness.

I chose the latter.
The universe fits the definition of a living being. As The the sun and planet Earth. For dharma I think the question is does it respond to dharma? 16th Karmapa's birds for example.
User avatar
treehuggingoctopus
Posts: 2507
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:26 pm
Location: EU

Re: Are Oysters Sentient? (Split from Giving up Masturbation)

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Jesse wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 5:09 pm It is my humble opinion that both Oysters, and plants are sentient. There is plenty of evidence to that effect, and the more evidence that is produced, the more it aligns that all life forms are sentient.
I am with you here. Plant sentience has always been my favourite Buddhist heresy.

But I do not agree that experiments could ever settle the issue of value distribution.
Générosité de l’invisible.
Notre gratitude est infinie.
Le critère est l’hospitalité.

Edmond Jabès
User avatar
Berry
Posts: 316
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:19 am

Re: Are Oysters Sentient? (Split from Giving up Masturbation)

Post by Berry »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 6:31 pm
Karma Dorje wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 5:32 pm I guess the bigger question is “Do vegans swallow?”
I don't see how they could, it's animal tissue, after all.

However, with a little shallot mignonette, you never know.
:rolling:
Leave the polluted water of conceptual thoughts in its natural clarity. Without affirming or denying appearances, leave them as they are. When there is neither acceptance nor rejection, mind is liberated into mahāmudra.

~ Tilopa
User avatar
Karma Dorje
Posts: 1415
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:35 pm

Re: Are Oysters Sentient? (Split from Giving up Masturbation)

Post by Karma Dorje »

If we are to live, other beings must die. If we are making use of our time well gathering punya and prajna, we will benefit those beings. Feeling holy because one doesn’t kill is just hypocrisy and lack of compassion.

I am quite certain that even were an oyster to be considered sentient, it will benefit more from me consuming it and making a connection to liberating dharma than sifting through muck in a bay somewhere with no chance of liberation. YMMV.
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava
jimmi
Posts: 118
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:41 am

Re: Are Oysters Sentient? (Split from Giving up Masturbation)

Post by jimmi »

Karma Dorje wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:34 pm If we are to live, other beings must die. If we are making use of our time well gathering punya and prajna, we will benefit those beings. Feeling holy because one doesn’t kill is just hypocrisy and lack of compassion.

I am quite certain that even were an oyster to be considered sentient, it will benefit more from me consuming it and making a connection to liberating dharma than sifting through muck in a bay somewhere with no chance of liberation. YMMV.
Feeling holy because one does kill is just hypocrisy and lack of compassion.
User avatar
Karma Dorje
Posts: 1415
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:35 pm

Re: Are Oysters Sentient? (Split from Giving up Masturbation)

Post by Karma Dorje »

jimmi wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:38 pm
Karma Dorje wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:34 pm If we are to live, other beings must die. If we are making use of our time well gathering punya and prajna, we will benefit those beings. Feeling holy because one doesn’t kill is just hypocrisy and lack of compassion.

I am quite certain that even were an oyster to be considered sentient, it will benefit more from me consuming it and making a connection to liberating dharma than sifting through muck in a bay somewhere with no chance of liberation. YMMV.
Feeling holy because one does kill is just hypocrisy and lack of compassion.
Of course. Samsara is a disaster through and through. Holiness is just another trap. We have to decide each of us for ourselves what our capacity is, and what actually benefits our mother sentient beings.
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava
Nalanda
Posts: 646
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:35 am

Re: Are Oysters Sentient? (Split from Giving up Masturbation)

Post by Nalanda »

Sorry to ask. Seeing this thread here, is the subtext, we have to be vegetarians?
User avatar
Hazel
Former staff member
Posts: 2090
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:15 pm
Location: she/her

Re: Are Oysters Sentient? (Split from Giving up Masturbation)

Post by Hazel »

Nalanda wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:15 am Sorry to ask. Seeing this thread here, is the subtext, we have to be vegetarians?
People say different things and its highly contentious. To the extent that this question may derail this thread. All of this is partly because it's a good question.

There's a 51 page thread on the issue here: https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... vegetarian

It is currently locked, but may be unlocked at some point in the future.
Happy Pride month to my queer dharma siblings!

What do you see when you turn out the lights?
Locked

Return to “Mahāyāna Buddhism”