Oysters are not sentient. Even vegans eat them.Adamantine wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:44 amI hope not on the half-shell? Those little guys are still alive, so that’s sadly adharmic…
Are Oysters Sentient? (Split from Giving up Masturbation)
Are Oysters Sentient? (Split from Giving up Masturbation)
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Are Oysters Sentient? (Split from Giving up Masturbation)
Are molluscs not sentient?Malcolm wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:29 pmOysters are not sentient. Even vegans eat them.Adamantine wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:44 amI hope not on the half-shell? Those little guys are still alive, so that’s sadly adharmic…
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation
No, I don’t think so.ManiThePainter wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:30 pmAre molluscs not sentient?Malcolm wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:29 pmOysters are not sentient. Even vegans eat them.Adamantine wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:44 am
I hope not on the half-shell? Those little guys are still alive, so that’s sadly adharmic…
Re: Giving Up Masturbation
I love oysters, but I’ve pretty much given them up- when you shuck them, they fight to close and stay closed, until you disable them by cutting a little membrane at the base. Just hard for me to square w the first precept. They seem to want to live.
There are vegetarians and vegans who have felt that shellfish like oysters, clams, and mussels are fine to eat because they anchor to rocks and don’t try to get away when people go to gather them; but I think they do, it’s just that for them, “away” is clamping the shell tightly shut. There are 85,000 species of mollusks in the world. Octopi are recognizably sentient, snails much less so, but if pressed I’d probably consider stepping on a snail taking life. So I don’t shuck oysters, and when I’m in the 90% of my life where I eat vegan, I don’t eat oysters then. But the world is complex and reasonable minds may differ.
There are vegetarians and vegans who have felt that shellfish like oysters, clams, and mussels are fine to eat because they anchor to rocks and don’t try to get away when people go to gather them; but I think they do, it’s just that for them, “away” is clamping the shell tightly shut. There are 85,000 species of mollusks in the world. Octopi are recognizably sentient, snails much less so, but if pressed I’d probably consider stepping on a snail taking life. So I don’t shuck oysters, and when I’m in the 90% of my life where I eat vegan, I don’t eat oysters then. But the world is complex and reasonable minds may differ.
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- ManiThePainter
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation
This is a good point. I can see clams not being sentient but octopi are very complex. Snails I would place in between the two but closer to oysters.passel wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:17 am I love oysters, but I’ve pretty much given them up- when you shuck them, they fight to close and stay closed, until you disable them by cutting a little membrane at the base. Just hard for me to square w the first precept. They seem to want to live.
There are vegetarians and vegans who have felt that shellfish like oysters, clams, and mussels are fine to eat because they anchor to rocks and don’t try to get away when people go to gather them; but I think they do, it’s just that for them, “away” is clamping the shell tightly shut. There are 85,000 species of mollusks in the world. Octopi are recognizably sentient, snails much less so, but if pressed I’d probably consider stepping on a snail taking life. So I don’t shuck oysters, and when I’m in the 90% of my life where I eat vegan, I don’t eat oysters then. But the world is complex and reasonable minds may differ.
If you don’t mind me asking Malcolm, what do you base this on?
Sorry for the off-topic but this is such a niche topic and it’s quite interesting.
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation
This article cites relevant scientific sources, seems the little ones do experience pain and react to predators..it’s just not
that simple to comprehend or quantify such a different form of experience.
https://medium.com/@jd.feliz/the-case- ... 1747367305
that simple to comprehend or quantify such a different form of experience.
https://medium.com/@jd.feliz/the-case- ... 1747367305
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
Re: Giving Up Masturbation
Every argument introduced here can also be made about plants.Adamantine wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 11:27 am This article cites relevant scientific sources, seems the little ones do experience pain and react to predators..it’s just not
that simple to comprehend or quantify such a different form of experience.
https://medium.com/@jd.feliz/the-case- ... 1747367305
Re: Giving Up Masturbation
Mollusks are in the animal family. Vegans by definition do not eat animals. You'd have to prove that claim.Malcolm wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:29 pmOysters are not sentient. Even vegans eat them.Adamantine wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:44 amI hope not on the half-shell? Those little guys are still alive, so that’s sadly adharmic…
Re: Giving Up Masturbation
Bivalves are not sentient. Google oysters + sentience + vegan. You will discover there is no consensus among vegans on this issue.Crazywisdom wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:05 pmMollusks are in the animal family. Vegans by definition do not eat animals. You'd have to prove that claim.Malcolm wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:29 pmOysters are not sentient. Even vegans eat them.Adamantine wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:44 am
I hope not on the half-shell? Those little guys are still alive, so that’s sadly adharmic…
- Adamantine
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation
Malcolm wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:10 pmEvery argument introduced here can also be made about plants.Adamantine wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 11:27 am This article cites relevant scientific sources, seems the little ones do experience pain and react to predators..it’s just not
that simple to comprehend or quantify such a different form of experience.
https://medium.com/@jd.feliz/the-case- ... 1747367305
Yes, well, there are good arguments to be made for sentience in plants as well.. most contemporary science tends to support such. I realize that may contradict Abhidharma, however we know what HHDL has said about what to do when science and dharma dogma contradict… you don’t agree?
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Are Oysters Sentient? (Split from Giving up Masturbation)
This may clear things up in a few ways.An octopus can masturbate and an oyster can not.
Now if an octopus was willing and an oyster was open to it?
Plants can not do that.
Now if an octopus was willing and an oyster was open to it?
Plants can not do that.
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Re: Are Oysters Sentient? (Split from Giving up Masturbation)
Sentient and have Buddha nature.
Killing them to eat would contradict the refuge vows.
Killing them to eat would contradict the refuge vows.
"To have confidence in the teacher is the ultimate refuge." -Rigzin Jigme Lingpa
Re: Are Oysters Sentient? (Split from Giving up Masturbation)
Not sentient and no buddha nature.Sonam Wangchug wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:31 pm Sentient and have Buddha nature.
Killing them to eat would contradict the refuge vows.
Eating them does not contradict the commitments of refuge.
Re: Are Oysters Sentient? (Split from Giving up Masturbation)
That's not true. The overwhelming majority do not. If I had to guess, maybe less than 5% do.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
Re: Giving Up Masturbation
Most contemporary science does not support that, and even if it did, your argument against eating oysters would have to extend to plants. Then what would one eat? Soylent Green?Adamantine wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 6:00 amMalcolm wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:10 pmEvery argument introduced here can also be made about plants.Adamantine wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 11:27 am This article cites relevant scientific sources, seems the little ones do experience pain and react to predators..it’s just not
that simple to comprehend or quantify such a different form of experience.
https://medium.com/@jd.feliz/the-case- ... 1747367305
Yes, well, there are good arguments to be made for sentience in plants as well.. most contemporary science tends to support such. I realize that may contradict Abhidharma, however we know what HHDL has said about what to do when science and dharma dogma contradict… you don’t agree?
Re: Are Oysters Sentient? (Split from Giving up Masturbation)
Which means it is true and vegans eat them. I” m afraid you just blundered into the “No true Scotsman” fallacy.
Re: Are Oysters Sentient? (Split from Giving up Masturbation)
Saying vegans eat oysters is like saying Buddhist monks drink alcohol, simply because Japanese monks are not forbidden. It's much more accurate to say Buddhist monks do not drink alcohol. It's much more accurate to say that vegans do not eat oysters. That has nothing at all to do with “No true Scotsman”.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
Re: Are Oysters Sentient? (Split from Giving up Masturbation)
I’ve seen a lot of Buddhist monks drink alcohol. Some do regularly. So, poor example.seeker242 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:59 pmSaying vegans eat oysters is like saying Buddhist monks drink alcohol, simply because Japanese monks are not forbidden. It's much more accurate to say Buddhist monks do not drink alcohol. It's much more accurate to say that vegans do not eat oysters. That has nothing at all to do with “No true Scotsman”.
Re: Are Oysters Sentient? (Split from Giving up Masturbation)
The example is irrelevant. When only 5% of a group does something, it's more accurate to say the group does not do that. The fact remains that it is more accurate to say vegans do not do that because the overwhelming majority, by a very large margin, do not. Even 5% is a very generous estimate, probably way too large anyway.Malcolm wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 1:02 pmI’ve seen a lot of Buddhist monks drink alcohol. Some do regularly. So, poor example.seeker242 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:59 pmSaying vegans eat oysters is like saying Buddhist monks drink alcohol, simply because Japanese monks are not forbidden. It's much more accurate to say Buddhist monks do not drink alcohol. It's much more accurate to say that vegans do not eat oysters. That has nothing at all to do with “No true Scotsman”.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!