Are Oysters Sentient? (Split from Giving up Masturbation)

[KathyLauren]

Oysters are not sentient. Even vegans eat them.

That is nonsense. I know that there as posers who claim to be vegan but actually aren't. They might eat oysters. People who actually are vegan don't eat anything in the animal kingdom or their products.

veg·an
/ˈvēɡən/

noun
noun: vegan; plural noun: vegans

a person who does not eat any food derived from animals and who typically does not use other animal products.

Oysters are in the animal kingdom, therefore vegans do not eat them.

It is not necessary to evaluate the sentience of each creature. If that was the standard, I can think of some people it would be okay to eat. To be vegan, the standard is whether or not it is in the animal kingdom.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy

[PadmaVonSamba]

If a creature weren’t sentient, it would never have evolved a protective cover, as with mollusks. From that, we can infer that they possess some sentience. Also, some, such as clams, are able to propel themselves, which they do, which indicates at least some rudimentary awareness of an environment around them.

The exact Buddhist term for the realm of mollusks is “shell-beings”.

[Malcolm]

If a creature weren’t sentient, it would never have evolved a protective cover, as with mollusks.

So by this argument, trees are sentient because bark.

[FiveSkandhas]

I will just observe that seeing this on the front page without any context was one of the more surreal experiences I've had on DharmaWheel:

Screenshot_20211026-215313.png (347.05 KiB) Viewed 1618 times

[Malcolm]

I will just observe that seeing this on the front page without any context was one of the more surreal experiences I've had on DharmaWheel:
Screenshot_20211026-215313.png

Yes, this is good dharmawheel as Jikan would say...

[Nicholas2727]

Who is this person so we can laugh at them?

I mean, there is some protein in semen, but I'd rather eat an oyster.

I hope not on the half-shell? Those little guys are still alive, so that’s sadly adharmic…

Oysters are not sentient. Even vegans eat them.

There are plenty of debates going around on if oysters are sentient, are they living, are they just like plants, etc. From the little bit I have researched there is not enough scientific studies on this. By definition though vegans avoid food derived from animals or animal products. Since oysters are in the kingdom Animalia, they should be avoided by vegans. IMO they are pretty gross so I will avoid them whether they are vegan or not

[PadmaVonSamba]

If a creature weren’t sentient, it would never have evolved a protective cover, as with mollusks.

So by this argument, trees are sentient because bark.

It’s different for trees. Trees have a protective outer layer to protect themselves from dog pee. But when dogs owe on trees, some of the bark gets transferred to the dog. Otherwise, dogs would have no bark at all.

[Giovanni]

I suspect that Malcolm is being a little provocative..
And I don’t think that the vast majority of vegetarians or vegans would eat shellfish.
But to say that they are Animalia as though that settles the matter is premature. Animalia is a man made descriptor from a man made model that gets very flakey and porous on its margins.
There are many organisms which do not fit neatly into any of the so called “kingdoms”. The classifications are a matter of convenience rather than an absolute.

[PeterC]

This is a great thread. I wonder - which of the major Tibetan writers ever actually ate an oyster? Any of them?

I've always found sentience to be a somewhat arbitrary standard. Plants and animals both engage in activities that further their respective species imperatives. And I'm sure there are fungi possessed of more intelligence than the average contemporary journalist.

[Malcolm]

I suspect that Malcolm is being a little provocative..

All I was saying was that I prefer oysters to semen. Others prefer okra.

[Karma Dorje]

I suspect that Malcolm is being a little provocative..

All I was saying was that I prefer oysters to semen. Others prefer okra.

Well if you put it that way…

I can’t see semen on the half shell taking off. Maybe that’s my limitation.

Sperm itself has about the same level of sentience as an oyster. It’s capable of seemingly purposive activity. I guess the bigger question is “Do vegans swallow?”

[Giovanni]

I suspect that Malcolm is being a little provocative..

All I was saying was that I prefer oysters to semen. Others prefer okra.

Well if you put it that way…

I can’t see semen on the half shell taking off. Maybe that’s my limitation.

Sperm itself has about the same level of sentience as an oyster. It’s capable of seemingly purposive activity. I guess the bigger question is “Do vegans swallow?”

[Malcolm]

I guess the bigger question is “Do vegans swallow?”

I don't see how they could, it's animal tissue, after all.

However, with a little shallot mignonette, you never know.

[Hazel]

How are people defining sentient?

[seeker242]

I wonder if traditional Korean temple food or traditional Japanese temple food is allowed to have oysters, clams etc.? Traditionally those are vegetarian foods so I don’t see how it could be allowed. I know that my Korean temple would never put oysters in anything but I don’t know if that’s traditional or not.

[Malcolm]

I wonder if traditional Korean temple food or traditional Japanese temple food is allowed to have oysters, clams etc.? Traditionally those are vegetarian foods so I don’t see how it could be allowed. I know that my Korean temple would never put oysters in anything but I don’t know if that’s traditional or not.

People complain mostly about eating things that have faces. There are massive environmental benefits in oyster farming, and they provide a pain-free source of animal protein. Oysters have no central nervous system and no sense organs, so they do not feel pain; and like plants, they respond to temperature and other environmental factors for feeding, breeding, etc. They may technically belong to the animal kingdom, but they are not sentient in any meaningful way. If it is argued they have sexual reproduction, so do plants.

[seeker242]

I wonder if traditional Korean temple food or traditional Japanese temple food is allowed to have oysters, clams etc.? Traditionally those are vegetarian foods so I don’t see how it could be allowed. I know that my Korean temple would never put oysters in anything but I don’t know if that’s traditional or not.

People complain mostly about eating things that have faces. There are massive environmental benefits in oyster farming, and they provide a pain-free source of animal protein. Oysters have no central nervous system and no sense organs, so they do not feel pain; and like plants, they respond to temperature and other environmental factors for feeding, breeding, etc. They may technically belong to the animal kingdom, but they are not sentient in any meaningful way. If it is argued they have sexual reproduction, so do plants.

If traditional Korean temple food does prohibit it, then the only reason that would be the case is because they are considered sentient beings. Whether you disagree or not, is largely irrelevant as you are not a Korean tradition practitioner.

[Toenail]

So sentience etc is depended on central nervous system and sense organs? Then do spirits or devas not have sentience? Because they do not have a central nervous system? I always thought animals like that are experience very heavy dullness karma like being absorbed in dull shamatha for many years or so. And now they are some weird dull sponge livigg for 1000s of years floating in the ocean or an oyster living in darkness etc.

[Malcolm]

So sentience etc is depended on central nervous system and sense organs? Then do spirits or devas not have sentience? Because they do not have a central nervous system? I always thought animals like that are experience very heavy dullness karma like being absorbed in dull shamatha for many years or so. And now they are some weird dull sponge livigg for 1000s of years floating in the ocean or an oyster living in darkness etc.

We are talking about the physically embodied. Devas have physical bodies, actually, feel sensations, etc. Please consult chapter three of the Kośa on this point. So-called spirits, on the other hand, are disembodied, having no form, etc.

The point is that where the line is drawn between sentience/nonsentience is very ambiguous. If oysters can't think, etc., they are not sentient. I don't think they can think, YMMV. I don't think they possess minds. The Buddha is not around to ask anymore.

[Toenail]

Would you eat live oysters?