Theravadin Looking to Learn

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
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friarzero
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Theravadin Looking to Learn

Post by friarzero »

Hello, I have been studying the Pali cannon for a few years now and would like to expand my knowledge. However there are a couple of topics I have trouble with and was wondering if you could possibly help. I come from a strongly secular background and got into Theravada via secularized Vipassana mediation groups. So when I read about primordial Buddhas, rainbow bodies, storehouse consciousnesses, and especially entities like Vairocana and Manjushri I get confused easily. Are there any books out there, or introductory sutras, that would provide a good introduction to these metaphysical topics to someone from a secular materialist perspective?

I realize I will need an open mind and a great deal of unlearning to do, I am just looking for a shallow end of the pool to start out in.

Thank you.
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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: Theravadin Looking to Learn

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Welcome! Your vipassana background will for sure serve you well as you come along. :thumbsup:
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

- Arya Sanghata Sutra
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Theravadin Looking to Learn

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

friarzero wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:27 pm So when I read about primordial Buddhas, rainbow bodies, storehouse consciousnesses, and especially entities like Vairocana and Manjushri I get confused easily.
One of the best things a teacher said to me, when I asked if all of of Buddhism’s celestial beings and various realms were real or not, he answered, “you mean, are they as real as you are? How real is that?”
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
friarzero
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Re: Theravadin Looking to Learn

Post by friarzero »

I thank you both but I hope I didn't give the impression I wanted you to convince me of the truth of these things. I just want a primer or intro to better understand these ideas and where they fit into Mahayana. Some of the language can be a bit flowery and I'm looking for an "idiot's guide", for lack of a better term. Would anyone please be wiling to point me in the right direction?
Inedible
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Re: Theravadin Looking to Learn

Post by Inedible »

Lucid dreaming would be a good place to begin. A lot of Mahayana Sutras read like descriptions of dreams, anyway, compared to the Pali Suttas. Practices performed in dreams are more powerful than ones done while awake. Even saying a single mantra once can give you an immediate result in a lucid dream. You'll want to keep saying it, of course. Setting a strong intention to be aware in a dream is good practice for setting similar intentions to be patient in difficult situations involving sentient beings. Like conflicts at work or with family where it is easy to lose your mindfulness. Mahayana practice seems to involve a lot of good intentions for how you will respond in the future. I have used lucid dreaming to help better understand things in school and later on to help with situations at work. When I stopped drinking alcohol I chose to have dreams about enjoying my favorite drinks instead of having relapses while awake. It can be a powerful training tool and the Vajrayana develops dream work to the point of moving beyond dreams.
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justsit
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Re: Theravadin Looking to Learn

Post by justsit »

I've found a good general overview in Traleg Rinpoche's book "The Essence of Buddhism." Since you have a foundation in Theravada the first few chapters cover material you're familiar with, but the rest provides a great summary of the progressive development of Mahayana and Vajrayana. Nice intro to the topic, plenty of inexpensive used copies on ebay.

https://www.namsebangdzo.com/Essence-of ... 307885.htm
friarzero
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Re: Theravadin Looking to Learn

Post by friarzero »

justsit wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:08 pm I've found a good general overview in Traleg Rinpoche's book "The Essence of Buddhism." Since you have a foundation in Theravada the first few chapters cover material you're familiar with, but the rest provides a great summary of the progressive development of Mahayana and Vajrayana. Nice intro to the topic, plenty of inexpensive used copies on ebay.

https://www.namsebangdzo.com/Essence-of ... 307885.htm
Thank you kindly!
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Astus
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Re: Theravadin Looking to Learn

Post by Astus »

friarzero wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:04 pmI just want a primer or intro to better understand these ideas and where they fit into Mahayana.
This series of articles is a great source: Buddhism in a Nutshell

Ven. Sheng-yen's Orthodox Chinese Buddhism covers many topics by answering common questions. There are also other useful booklets available online.

Ven. Hsing Yun's The Core Teachings is another good summary. And there are other useful booklets covering a wide variety of topics.

Thich Nhat Hanh's The Heart of the Buddha’s Teaching is a wonderful introduction too.

The Three Vehicles of Buddhist Practice by Thrangu Rinpoche is a short and practical overview.

Daring Steps by Ringu Tulku is also recommended.

Buddhist Thought: A Complete Introduction to the Indian Tradition by Paul Williams, Anthony Tribe, and Alexander Wynne has some fine chapters on Mahayana.

And for a philosophical approach see The Golden Age of Indian Buddhist Philosophy by Jan Westerhoff.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
passel
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Re: Theravadin Looking to Learn

Post by passel »

Paul Williams’ Mahayana Buddhism is an excellent survey. Theravada has all sorts of “far out” elements too, but you’ve received a modernized version. This is fine and skillful imo. Modern Zen offers something very similar from Mahayana roots. Tibetan Buddhism has not made the same moves exactly- there are modernist dispensations, but a lot also positioned in opposition to those modernist moves, and mostly hybrids of the two approaches. So when you’re looking at Mahayana and see more “far out” stuff, you’re seeing both earlier, unmodernized material, and material that positions itself as specifically non-modernist. It’s complex but not really a big deal. You don’t have to buy any of it- everything is there because someone thought it was important enough to sustain. It’s great to learn broadly IMO, but in the long run it comes down to what interests you, what nourishes you, and then what really changes you.

"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious
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Matt J
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Re: Theravadin Looking to Learn

Post by Matt J »

I’d suggest looking at Reggie Ray’s Secrets if the Vajra World and Indestructible Truth.
"The world is made of stories, not atoms."
--- Muriel Rukeyser
Natan
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Re: Theravadin Looking to Learn

Post by Natan »

friarzero wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:27 pm Hello, I have been studying the Pali cannon for a few years now and would like to expand my knowledge. However there are a couple of topics I have trouble with and was wondering if you could possibly help. I come from a strongly secular background and got into Theravada via secularized Vipassana mediation groups. So when I read about primordial Buddhas, rainbow bodies, storehouse consciousnesses, and especially entities like Vairocana and Manjushri I get confused easily. Are there any books out there, or introductory sutras, that would provide a good introduction to these metaphysical topics to someone from a secular materialist perspective?

I realize I will need an open mind and a great deal of unlearning to do, I am just looking for a shallow end of the pool to start out in.

Thank you.
There are a lot of good suggestions here. You might want to read up on some Western academic mathematics and metaphysics. In my opinion, the metaphysics in Buddhism is closely related with infinitesimals or monads, infinities, consciousness and self-similarity/interrelatedness. So something like a Buddha Vairocana whose mode of operation is to sit in samadhi, whose mind is like a mirror, reflecting all minds, or like in the Avatamsaka Sutra, the metaphor of Indra's net, where infinite buddhas reside in the space of an atom, becomes something plausible. But these are to highlight emptiness.

Materialist bias will not serve you well. You really do need to stretch into mathematics and philosophy. For example, in high geometry, forms are not invented. They are discovered. This proves there is an objective though nonmaterial dimension. Professor Frenkel at UC Berkeley proved that. In conversations with him he surmised this dimension is something like Brahman, because it is not material, also not imaginary and also not cognizing anything. I would almost believe there is a brahma Loka of self appearing mathematical discovery.

It easy to be like a Newtonian physicist in view or have a medical doctor or engineers bias toward the concrete. But one just has to accept there's a big weird world of non arbitrary and counterintuitive, but well reasoned truths out there. But you will have to go and read up on it. Talk to those who know.

Also keep in mind while you're in the Kiddy Pool, these ideas about cosmic buddhas are not ultimately important. These are inspirational ways to make you understand Buddha is omniscient. Ultimately what is important is finding a good teacher and practicing meditation.
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Tilopa
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Re: Theravadin Looking to Learn

Post by Tilopa »

For a general overview these will be helpful:

Tibetan Buddhism from the Ground Up - Alan Wallace

Introduction to Tibetan Buddhism - John Powers

For more in depth study:

The Foundation of Buddhist Thought by Geshe Tashi Tsering (6 volumes)
PeterC
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Re: Theravadin Looking to Learn

Post by PeterC »

friarzero wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:27 pm Hello, I have been studying the Pali cannon for a few years now and would like to expand my knowledge. However there are a couple of topics I have trouble with and was wondering if you could possibly help. I come from a strongly secular background and got into Theravada via secularized Vipassana mediation groups. So when I read about primordial Buddhas, rainbow bodies, storehouse consciousnesses, and especially entities like Vairocana and Manjushri I get confused easily. Are there any books out there, or introductory sutras, that would provide a good introduction to these metaphysical topics to someone from a secular materialist perspective?

I realize I will need an open mind and a great deal of unlearning to do, I am just looking for a shallow end of the pool to start out in.

Thank you.
You should be reading (and receiving) practice instructions.

The best way to gain confidence in a system is to see it work. Suppose you had never seen an airplane, and the Wright Brothers came along and told you they had figured out how to fly. They could have you sit in a classroom for weeks while they explained the physics, and you would still have your doubts. Or they could just fly around a bit for you to see, and you would find it a lot easier to accept the physics even if you didn't understand or couldn't prove it.
SilenceMonkey
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Re: Theravadin Looking to Learn

Post by SilenceMonkey »

friarzero wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:27 pm Hello, I have been studying the Pali cannon for a few years now and would like to expand my knowledge. However there are a couple of topics I have trouble with and was wondering if you could possibly help. I come from a strongly secular background and got into Theravada via secularized Vipassana mediation groups. So when I read about primordial Buddhas, rainbow bodies, storehouse consciousnesses, and especially entities like Vairocana and Manjushri I get confused easily. Are there any books out there, or introductory sutras, that would provide a good introduction to these metaphysical topics to someone from a secular materialist perspective?

I realize I will need an open mind and a great deal of unlearning to do, I am just looking for a shallow end of the pool to start out in.

Thank you.
You might want to research in NDEs. You may learn some things from books, but it's not likely to shatter the materialist belief system you unconsciously hold. We need something more direct for that.

And if hearing people's stories don't do it, you could try engaging in some practices given to you by a teacher. It may give you a sense of how the teachings you're asking about could be true.

*edit* Peter beat me to it!
PeterC
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Re: Theravadin Looking to Learn

Post by PeterC »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:24 am You might want to research in NDEs. You may learn some things from books, but it's not likely to shatter the materialist belief system you unconsciously hold. We need something more direct for that.

And if hearing people's stories don't do it, you could try engaging in some practices given to you by a teacher. It may give you a sense of how the teachings you're asking about could be true.

*edit* Peter beat me to it!
Only by two minutes :)

My general feeling is that practitioners are always better advised to, well, practice. One does not achieve liberation from concepts and beliefs by engaging with them.
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tobes
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Re: Theravadin Looking to Learn

Post by tobes »

PeterC wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:22 am
friarzero wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:27 pm Hello, I have been studying the Pali cannon for a few years now and would like to expand my knowledge. However there are a couple of topics I have trouble with and was wondering if you could possibly help. I come from a strongly secular background and got into Theravada via secularized Vipassana mediation groups. So when I read about primordial Buddhas, rainbow bodies, storehouse consciousnesses, and especially entities like Vairocana and Manjushri I get confused easily. Are there any books out there, or introductory sutras, that would provide a good introduction to these metaphysical topics to someone from a secular materialist perspective?

I realize I will need an open mind and a great deal of unlearning to do, I am just looking for a shallow end of the pool to start out in.

Thank you.
You should be reading (and receiving) practice instructions.

The best way to gain confidence in a system is to see it work. Suppose you had never seen an airplane, and the Wright Brothers came along and told you they had figured out how to fly. They could have you sit in a classroom for weeks while they explained the physics, and you would still have your doubts. Or they could just fly around a bit for you to see, and you would find it a lot easier to accept the physics even if you didn't understand or couldn't prove it.
:good:

That's a really fruitful analogy PeterC. One of the best I've seen for quite a while.
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