Astus wrote: ↑Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:23 pm
Aemilius wrote: ↑Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:30 am
Nagarjuna (or some other liberated person) who says this perceivably exists. That is why it is misleading.
Nagarjuna, Shakyamuni, Bodhidharma and others became old, therefore the becoming de facto continued.
In a sutra Shakyamuni says, in the last part of his life, that his body is old and worn out like an old and many times repaired chariot. Did becoming really end?
To assume existence is the ignorance about the nature of things that perpetuates becoming. With awakening there is no one to label as existent or non-existent, and that is the end of life and death. See e.g.: MN 72, SN 22.85-86, MMK 22.
‘Reverend Ānanda, the tathāgatas have the body of the Dharma—not a body that is sustained by material food. The tathāgatas have a transcendental body that has transcended all mundane qualities. There is no injury to the body of a tathāgata, as it is rid of all defilements. The body of a tathāgata is uncompounded and free of all formative activity. Reverend Ānanda, to believe there can be illness in such a body is irrational and unseemly!’
(
The Teaching of Vimalakīrti, 3.45)
"There is no ignorance,
no extinction of ignorance, and so forth, until we come to :
There is no decay and death,
no extinction of decay and death",
Heart of Perfect Wisdom sutra.
According to Vasubandhu there are four different ways in which the 12 links of Dependent origination function; they describe one life, two lives, existence from one moment to the next moment, or innumerable lifetimes. The bodies of Shakyamuni and other enlightened persons still exist dependent on causes and conditions, at least to some extent, based on their existence in the world. Personally I believe the story in the Catusparisad sutra that right after his enlightenment Shakyamuni visited the three other major continents by taking just one step in their direction. I am not a believer in a truly existent material world. Transcendent reality exists.
The world of becoming also exists from moment to moment. Shakyamuni and other enlightened persons were, and are, part of it. Later in his life Shakyamuni walked from place to place, for example on his last teaching tour, consumed food and drink, used beds, and used medicine (at least a couple of times, if I right remember, and had for example indigestion). Therefore he lived under the law of becoming from moment to moment. How could he otherwise have had a body or existence ?
Even when they are enlightened, persons can be found and identified. Shakyamuni and Devadatta could both be found and pointed out, like "this is Shakyamuni" and "that is Devadatta". This means they had distinct identities.