Making sense of types of thought

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 8883
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Making sense of types of thought

Post by Astus »

Aemilius wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:58 pm"The ending of bhava or becoming" creates a misleading image.
What is that misleading image? The ending of the whole cycle of birth and death is liberation. With the cessation of becoming, or any other of the other eleven elements of the twelvefold chain, there is freedom (see e.g. MMK 26.12). When the five aggregates are realised to be empty, that is, without self and what belongs to a self, then there is no longer any becoming of a self. Then it can be rightly stated that "There is no decay and death, no extinction of decay and death".
If you consider that all teachings (sutras etc) are precepts or practice instructions, then the instruction of "casting away bhava" must refer to something that one actually experiences. The only plausible explanation is the thoughts and volitions about the present and future. This kind of instruction is found in the Mahamudra, where it is said that one should cease thinking or even cut off thoughts of past, present and future.
There is no such instruction to "cast away bhava". Becoming comes to an end through proper cultivation, and correct practice depends on correct knowledge of the teachings. Thinking of the three times may be suspended for a short while, but only when their insubstantiality is seen can they cease to be an issue (see e.g. Mahamudra: the Moonlight, 2.5.3.1, p 244).
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
User avatar
Aemilius
Posts: 4604
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:44 am

Re: Making sense of types of thought

Post by Aemilius »

Nagarjuna (or some other liberated person) who says this perceivably exists. That is why it is misleading.
Nagarjuna, Shakyamuni, Bodhidharma and others became old, therefore the becoming de facto continued.
In a sutra Shakyamuni says, in the last part of his life, that his body is old and worn out like an old and many times repaired chariot. Did becoming really end?
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 8883
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Making sense of types of thought

Post by Astus »

Aemilius wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:30 am Nagarjuna (or some other liberated person) who says this perceivably exists. That is why it is misleading.
Nagarjuna, Shakyamuni, Bodhidharma and others became old, therefore the becoming de facto continued.
In a sutra Shakyamuni says, in the last part of his life, that his body is old and worn out like an old and many times repaired chariot. Did becoming really end?
To assume existence is the ignorance about the nature of things that perpetuates becoming. With awakening there is no one to label as existent or non-existent, and that is the end of life and death. See e.g.: MN 72, SN 22.85-86, MMK 22.

 ‘Reverend Ānanda, the tathāgatas have the body of the Dharma‍—not a body that is sustained by material food. The tathāgatas have a transcendental body that has transcended all mundane qualities. There is no injury to the body of a tathāgata, as it is rid of all defilements. The body of a tathāgata is uncompounded and free of all formative activity. Reverend Ānanda, to believe there can be illness in such a body is irrational and unseemly!’
(The Teaching of Vimalakīrti, 3.45)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Natan
Posts: 3685
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Making sense of types of thought

Post by Natan »

Hazel wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:54 pm I've been watching myself sleep (creepy!) and have noticed some things about types of thoughts, both as falling asleep and while awake.

Here "thought" refers to auditory thoughts.

* There's a thread of thought I'm holding onto deliberately.
* There's a thread of thought I wander off on without really realizing it or being very aware of it until after the fact.
* There's a series of disjointed thoughts that don't really connect or make logical sense. I often notice this after the fact as I'm falling asleep.
* Babble. Chatter that's not quite clear what's being thought, but just makes the sound of thought. Like someone mumbling.
* Babble (not my voice). Incoherent words from an assortment of voices I might have heard throughout the day. This happened to me a LOT as a kid often as a cacophony of different voices, but less frequent and less intense as an adult.

I'm trying to make sense of how they fit into the Buddhist view of the mind.

... Thoughts? :tongue:
If you have Mahamudra instructions you can view these in a more meaningful way.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Making sense of types of thought

Post by Malcolm »

Aemilius wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:30 am In a sutra Shakyamuni says, in the last part of his life, that his body is old and worn out like an old and many times repaired chariot. Did becoming really end?
Sure, he did not take rebirth again.
User avatar
Aemilius
Posts: 4604
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:44 am

Re: Making sense of types of thought

Post by Aemilius »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 3:54 pm
Aemilius wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:30 am In a sutra Shakyamuni says, in the last part of his life, that his body is old and worn out like an old and many times repaired chariot. Did becoming really end?
Sure, he did not take rebirth again.

I meant becoming in this life as the process of life from moment to moment. According to Nichiren Shakyamuni still abides in his pureland on the Vulture peak.
Last edited by Aemilius on Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:12 am, edited 2 times in total.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
User avatar
Aemilius
Posts: 4604
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:44 am

Re: Making sense of types of thought

Post by Aemilius »

Astus wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:23 pm
Aemilius wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:30 am Nagarjuna (or some other liberated person) who says this perceivably exists. That is why it is misleading.
Nagarjuna, Shakyamuni, Bodhidharma and others became old, therefore the becoming de facto continued.
In a sutra Shakyamuni says, in the last part of his life, that his body is old and worn out like an old and many times repaired chariot. Did becoming really end?
To assume existence is the ignorance about the nature of things that perpetuates becoming. With awakening there is no one to label as existent or non-existent, and that is the end of life and death. See e.g.: MN 72, SN 22.85-86, MMK 22.

 ‘Reverend Ānanda, the tathāgatas have the body of the Dharma‍—not a body that is sustained by material food. The tathāgatas have a transcendental body that has transcended all mundane qualities. There is no injury to the body of a tathāgata, as it is rid of all defilements. The body of a tathāgata is uncompounded and free of all formative activity. Reverend Ānanda, to believe there can be illness in such a body is irrational and unseemly!’
(The Teaching of Vimalakīrti, 3.45)
"There is no ignorance, no extinction of ignorance, and so forth, until we come to :
There is no decay and death, no extinction of decay and death", Heart of Perfect Wisdom sutra.

According to Vasubandhu there are four different ways in which the 12 links of Dependent origination function; they describe one life, two lives, existence from one moment to the next moment, or innumerable lifetimes. The bodies of Shakyamuni and other enlightened persons still exist dependent on causes and conditions, at least to some extent, based on their existence in the world. Personally I believe the story in the Catusparisad sutra that right after his enlightenment Shakyamuni visited the three other major continents by taking just one step in their direction. I am not a believer in a truly existent material world. Transcendent reality exists.
The world of becoming also exists from moment to moment. Shakyamuni and other enlightened persons were, and are, part of it. Later in his life Shakyamuni walked from place to place, for example on his last teaching tour, consumed food and drink, used beds, and used medicine (at least a couple of times, if I right remember, and had for example indigestion). Therefore he lived under the law of becoming from moment to moment. How could he otherwise have had a body or existence ?
Even when they are enlightened, persons can be found and identified. Shakyamuni and Devadatta could both be found and pointed out, like "this is Shakyamuni" and "that is Devadatta". This means they had distinct identities.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 8883
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Making sense of types of thought

Post by Astus »

Aemilius wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:03 amThe world of becoming also exists from moment to moment. Shakyamuni and other enlightened persons were, and are, part of it.
The becoming of what/who? Do you take Shakyamuni to be the rupaskandha, or the owner of the rupaskandha? If so, isn't that exactly the assumption of a self? If not, then what is becoming?
Later in his life Shakyamuni walked from place to place, for example on his last teaching tour, consumed food and drink, used beds, and used medicine (at least a couple of times, if I right remember, and had for example indigestion).
“Subhūti, if someone says that the Tathāgata (‘Thus-come One’) comes, goes, sits, or lies down, this person does not understand the point of my teaching. Why? The Thus-come One has no place from whence he comes, and no place to go. Therefore he is called ‘Thus-come.’”
(Diamond Sutra, ch 29)
Shakyamuni and Devadatta could both be found and pointed out, like "this is Shakyamuni" and "that is Devadatta". This means they had distinct identities.
“Someone who has given up conceit has no ties, the ties of conceit are all cleared away. Though that clever person has transcended identity, they’d still say, ‘I speak’, and also ‘they speak to me’. Skillful, understanding the world’s conventions, they’d use these terms as no more than expressions.”
(SN 1.25)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 5408
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: Making sense of types of thought

Post by LastLegend »

Astus wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:49 pm When the five aggregates are realised to be empty, that is, without self and what belongs to a self, then there is no longer any becoming of a self. Then it can be rightly stated that "There is no decay and death, no extinction of decay and death".
Then you have no thought? Because a thought is a becoming.
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 8883
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Making sense of types of thought

Post by Astus »

LastLegend wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:54 amThen you have no thought? Because a thought is a becoming.
A thought is a becoming when it is taken as "my thought" or "I am thinking this thought". The Buddha stated of himself:

'He thinks what is to be thought, but does not identify with what is thought, does not identify with what is not thought, does not identify with what is to be thought, and does not identify with a thinker. '
(AN 4.24, cf. MN 1)

And as presented in Chan:
'What is nonthought? If in seeing all the dharmas, the mind is not defiled or attached, this is nonthought. [The mind’s] functioning pervades all locations, yet it is not attached to all the locations. Just purify the fundamental mind, causing the six consciousnesses to emerge from the six [sensory] gates, [causing one to be] without defilement or heterogeneity within the six types of sensory data (literally, the “six dusts”), autonomous in the coming and going [of mental phenomena], one’s penetrating function without stagnation.'
(Platform Sutra, ch 2, BDK ed, p 33)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 5408
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: Making sense of types of thought

Post by LastLegend »

Astus wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:42 pm
LastLegend wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:54 amThen you have no thought? Because a thought is a becoming.
A thought is a becoming when it is taken as "my thought" or "I am thinking this thought". The Buddha stated of himself:

'He thinks what is to be thought, but does not identify with what is thought, does not identify with what is not thought, does not identify with what is to be thought, and does not identify with a thinker. '
(AN 4.24, cf. MN 1)

And as presented in Chan:
'What is nonthought? If in seeing all the dharmas, the mind is not defiled or attached, this is nonthought. [The mind’s] functioning pervades all locations, yet it is not attached to all the locations. Just purify the fundamental mind, causing the six consciousnesses to emerge from the six [sensory] gates, [causing one to be] without defilement or heterogeneity within the six types of sensory data (literally, the “six dusts”), autonomous in the coming and going [of mental phenomena], one’s penetrating function without stagnation.'
(Platform Sutra, ch 2, BDK ed, p 33)
The issue you brought up was cessation of becoming…this is an issue because karma still follows and still clouds the mind. I don’t see how having the view not identifying with thoughts take care of karma unless you are always meditating. Also when not identifying, how do you know that’s not becoming if you agree becoming is another the word for movement or arising?
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 8883
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Making sense of types of thought

Post by Astus »

LastLegend wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:41 pmI don’t see how having the view not identifying with thoughts take care of karma unless you are always meditating.
Liberation is not limited to meditation. Of course, if one is not liberated, then there is also becoming.
Also when not identifying, how do you know that’s not becoming if you agree becoming is another the word for movement or arising?
Becoming is not the same as movement. See this previous post here.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 5408
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: Making sense of types of thought

Post by LastLegend »

Astus wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:08 pm
LastLegend wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:41 pmI don’t see how having the view not identifying with thoughts take care of karma unless you are always meditating.
Liberation is not limited to meditation. Of course, if one is not liberated, then there is also becoming.
Also when not identifying, how do you know that’s not becoming if you agree becoming is another the word for movement or arising?
Becoming is not the same as movement. See this previous post here.
It depends what you call liberation.

Movement as in mind’s movement. As you referred to mental continuum or activity of five aggregates. So then you say it’s not cessation of the five aggregates rather not identifying with self? Cessation or not identifying with thoughts. Which one? If whatever slightest arises is still self because you know that…which means identifying then that’s not true cessation.
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 8883
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Making sense of types of thought

Post by Astus »

LastLegend wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:25 pmSo then you say it’s not cessation of the five aggregates rather not identifying with self? Cessation or not identifying with thoughts. Which one? If whatever slightest arises is still self because you know that…which means identifying then that’s not true cessation.
It's not phenomena themselves that cause suffering, it's grasping at them and identifying with them. Cessation of becoming means ending attachment, ending concocting a self.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 5408
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: Making sense of types of thought

Post by LastLegend »

Astus wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:54 pm
LastLegend wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:25 pmSo then you say it’s not cessation of the five aggregates rather not identifying with self? Cessation or not identifying with thoughts. Which one? If whatever slightest arises is still self because you know that…which means identifying then that’s not true cessation.
It's not phenomena themselves that cause suffering, it's grasping at them and identifying with them. Cessation of becoming means ending attachment, ending concocting a self.
How can we go beyond dual of grasping and identifying versus not grasping and identifying? Perhaps you mean preliminary to enter samadhi by not grasping and identifying?
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 8883
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Making sense of types of thought

Post by Astus »

LastLegend wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:25 pmHow can we go beyond dual of grasping and identifying versus not grasping and identifying?
As long as there is the assumption of a being who can grasp or not gasp, there is duality of self and other. To recognise that all assumptions are conditioned thoughts is one way to go beyond.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 5408
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: Making sense of types of thought

Post by LastLegend »

Astus wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:49 pm
LastLegend wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:25 pmHow can we go beyond dual of grasping and identifying versus not grasping and identifying?
As long as there is the assumption of a being who can grasp or not gasp, there is duality of self and other. To recognise that all assumptions are conditioned thoughts is one way to go beyond.
It’s still going in circle…even when at calmest and empty, there is still a sense of being. Even you sense there is no being, that’s still being.
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 8883
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Making sense of types of thought

Post by Astus »

LastLegend wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:50 pmIt’s still going in circle…even when at calmest and empty, there is still a sense of being. Even you sense there is no being, that’s still being.
No matter what one senses or what it's perceived as, just as they arise according to conditions so do they pass quite rapidly. But unless one pays close attention, feelings can seem constant and personal.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
User avatar
Aemilius
Posts: 4604
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:44 am

Re: Making sense of types of thought

Post by Aemilius »

Astus wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:11 am
Shakyamuni and Devadatta could both be found and pointed out, like "this is Shakyamuni" and "that is Devadatta". This means they had distinct identities.
“Someone who has given up conceit has no ties, the ties of conceit are all cleared away. Though that clever person has transcended identity, they’d still say, ‘I speak’, and also ‘they speak to me’. Skillful, understanding the world’s conventions, they’d use these terms as no more than expressions.”
(SN 1.25)
Why was Shakyamuni upset when some of his followers had flocked to the congregation of Devadatta, if "Devadatta" is a mere expression without basis?

It does not really change anything, banks are still banks and money is still money, even if they are mere words and worldly conventions. Economists know that "money" is a convention or a contract, and yet everything functions as if money was a real existent. That is the nature of things.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 8883
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Making sense of types of thought

Post by Astus »

Aemilius wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:46 amWhy was Shakyamuni upset when some of his followers had flocked to the congregation of Devadatta, if "Devadatta" is a mere expression without basis?
Why do you say the Buddha was upset? Do you think he failed in patience, was driven by the eight worldly concerns, and has not removed completely the three poisons?

'Subhūti, in a former lifetime my body was cut into pieces by the Rājah Kaliṅga. At that time, I was not abiding in the notions of self, person, sentient being, or life span. And why not? If, at the time my body was cut into pieces, I had been holding to the notions of self, person, sentient being, or life span, I would have felt ill-will [toward Kaliṅga]. Subhūti, I also remember some five hundred lifetimes ago having practiced forbearance as a renunciant sage. At that time I was also free from the notions of self, person, sentient being, and life. Therefore, Subhūti, the bodhisattvas should free themselves from all notions and arouse the aspiration for peerless perfect enlightenment. They should not arouse this aspiration while abiding in form, and they should not arouse this aspiration while abiding in sound, odor, taste, touch, or conceptualization. They should give rise to the aspiration that has no abode. If the mind abides, then this is not abiding.'
(Diamond Sutra, ch 14)
It does not really change anything, banks are still banks and money is still money, even if they are mere words and worldly conventions. Economists know that "money" is a convention or a contract, and yet everything functions as if money was a real existent. That is the nature of things.
'“Even if we know that all is like illusion,
How,” you ask, “will this dispel afflictive passion?
Magicians may indeed themselves desire
The mirage-women they themselves create.”
The reason is they have not rid themselves
Of habits of desiring objects of perception;
And when they gaze upon such things,
Their aptitude for emptiness is weak indeed.
By training in this aptitude for emptiness,
The habit to perceive real things will be relinquished.
By training in the thought “There isn’t anything,”
This view itself will also be abandoned.'

(Bodhicaryavatara 9.30-32, tr Padmakara)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Post Reply

Return to “Mahāyāna Buddhism”