Making sense of types of thought

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Hazel
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Making sense of types of thought

Post by Hazel »

I've been watching myself sleep (creepy!) and have noticed some things about types of thoughts, both as falling asleep and while awake.

Here "thought" refers to auditory thoughts.

* There's a thread of thought I'm holding onto deliberately.
* There's a thread of thought I wander off on without really realizing it or being very aware of it until after the fact.
* There's a series of disjointed thoughts that don't really connect or make logical sense. I often notice this after the fact as I'm falling asleep.
* Babble. Chatter that's not quite clear what's being thought, but just makes the sound of thought. Like someone mumbling.
* Babble (not my voice). Incoherent words from an assortment of voices I might have heard throughout the day. This happened to me a LOT as a kid often as a cacophony of different voices, but less frequent and less intense as an adult.

I'm trying to make sense of how they fit into the Buddhist view of the mind.

... Thoughts? :tongue:
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Re: Making sense of types of thought

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

I always think of the ‘babble’ as perhaps the alaya-vijnana viewed from a certain angle. Latent karmic tendencies of the sort that form together into something a little more coherent as dreams.

Sometimes I can observe them becoming dreams with enough awareness during the sleep process.
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Re: Making sense of types of thought

Post by Rick »

Hazel wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:54 pm I've been watching myself
Like internal tv channels! My lineup is similar to yours, but I also have a looping jukebox channel that plays pretty much all the time.

Do you have internal polyphony (2+ channels playing at the same time) or monophony (serial, one after another)? When I'm meditating they all play at the same time, when I'm performing some task they play more serially. Or maybe they always all play at the same time, but I'm only aware of it while meditating?
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Re: Making sense of types of thought

Post by Hazel »

Rick wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:14 pm
Hazel wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:54 pm I've been watching myself
Like internal tv channels! My lineup is similar to yours, but I also have a looping jukebox channel that plays pretty much all the time.

Do you have internal polyphony (2+ channels playing at the same time) or monophony (serial, one after another)? When I'm meditating they all play at the same time, when I'm performing some task they play more serially. Or maybe they always all play at the same time, but I'm only aware of it while meditating?
I forgot about the jukebox! That one is actually kind of odd because it's a seemingly "outside" thought that happens when fully awake. For me it's never the song I want stuck in my head either. I'm not sure about polyphony. I am capable of it (I just checked with the intro to Dark Side of The Moon), but I'm unsure if that happens on its own. It's never the fun polyphonic songs that got stuck in my head.
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Re: Making sense of types of thought

Post by narhwal90 »

I get a fair bit of the first three, depending on circumstances (eg #3 quite often when almost asleep, or very tired). Less of the other two, though if worn out from stress, then the babble appears with overtones of resentment and depression.

I would say all are the mind doing its thing, to be observed like a leaf passing by on the stream. When I'm practicing well I make fewer piles of those leaves.

OTOH, if I'm hot on a song just (re)discovered, then there is quite a soundtrack that takes a while to subside lol
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Re: Making sense of types of thought

Post by Hazel »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:06 pm I always think of the ‘babble’ as perhaps the alaya-vijnana viewed from a certain angle. Latent karmic tendencies of the sort that form together into something a little more coherent as dreams.

Sometimes I can observe them becoming dreams with enough awareness during the sleep process.
I'll have to keep practicing and see what happens, because that's exciting. Becoming lucid in dreams isn't a big deal to me - the stuff that excites me is learning to watch the mind going in and out of them. I have a long ways to go there!
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Re: Making sense of types of thought

Post by Astus »

Hazel wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:54 pmI'm trying to make sense of how they fit into the Buddhist view of the mind.
I can't recall even meditation manuals discussing mental activities in such a format. I guess it could fall into general restlessness. When it comes to categorising mental factors the basic distinction that should be kept in mind are skilful (kuśala) and unskilful (akuśala), then the rest can be taken care of (e.g. MN 19, MN 117).
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Making sense of types of thought

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Hazel: In my experience Dream yoga is considered a less ‘advanced’ form of practice, believe it or not. The logic being that it is easier to deal with appearances as appearances than it is to ascertain their true nature.
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Re: Making sense of types of thought

Post by Rick »

Astus wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:57 pm I can't recall even meditation manuals discussing mental activities in such a format. I guess it could fall into general restlessness. When it comes to categorising mental factors the basic distinction that should be kept in mind are skilful (kuśala) and unskilful (akuśala), then the rest can be taken care of (e.g. MN 19, MN 117).
Astus, hi. :-) Wouldn't a study of the skandhas, particularly sankhara and vijnana, address the mental objects Hazel is describing?
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Re: Making sense of types of thought

Post by Rick »

Hazel wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:28 pm I forgot about the jukebox! That one is actually kind of odd because it's a seemingly "outside" thought that happens when fully awake. For me it's never the song I want stuck in my head either.
Maybe it's your unconscious head that wants the song?
I'm not sure about polyphony. I am capable of it (I just checked with the intro to Dark Side of The Moon), but I'm unsure if that happens on its own. It's never the fun polyphonic songs that got stuck in my head.
I meant polyphony of all your channels, not jukebox songs. Do they play at the same time, like streams running in parallel?
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Re: Making sense of types of thought

Post by Astus »

Rick wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:33 pmWouldn't a study of the skandhas, particularly sankhara and vijnana, address the mental objects Hazel is describing?
If by study you mean abhidharma literature, based on the dharmas enumerated in them I doubt it.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Making sense of types of thought

Post by Dan74 »

Carl Jung discussed different modes of thinking, including directed logical thinking as a fairly late variant. I think it was in his book on Psychological Types (introvert vs extrovert, etc).
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Re: Making sense of types of thought

Post by Queequeg »

Did you ever see Inside Out? Plays with the phenomena you observe.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2096673/

For me, there is a narrative that is always trying to make sense of things - working out logic, visualizing in 3D, maybe 4D if there are moving parts, music. Sometimes its a thought out narrative. Sometimes its just a fragment.

Then there are the echoes. Almost everything except raw, immediate experience is an echo, really. Most thinking is in English and so of course the sound/shape of words, syntax, American cultural conventions, ideas, etc. all are echoes that shape my thoughts.

Maybe its why I enjoy immediate experiences - when I was younger, I played with a skateboard. There is no mediation in language or anything else when all thought and activity is focused on sliding a board down a hand rail while you're riding it - tempting bodily injury. The patter starts up as soon as you land the trick, but for that split moment, there is nothing but that moment. Similar with ice hockey - the first collision in a game is an exhilarating wakeup with the flush of adrenaline and the jarring ringing flush in the nasal cavity. Chasing a puck with all physical effort to try and put it in the opponent's net, and at the next social level, working with teammates in a common goal, and when perfected, working as extensions of each other.

I suppose we all have that intimate experience with our thoughts. Wonderful to have the freedom to explore them and enjoy them, not have to have them turned to mere survival every moment.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
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Re: Making sense of types of thought

Post by Malcolm »

Hazel wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:54 pm I've been watching myself sleep (creepy!) and have noticed some things about types of thoughts, both as falling asleep and while awake.

Here "thought" refers to auditory thoughts.

* There's a thread of thought I'm holding onto deliberately.
Mindfulness.
* There's a thread of thought I wander off on without really realizing it or being very aware of it until after the fact.
Distraction.
* There's a series of disjointed thoughts that don't really connect or make logical sense. I often notice this after the fact as I'm falling asleep.
Conceptuality.
* Babble. Chatter that's not quite clear what's being thought, but just makes the sound of thought. Like someone mumbling.
Conceptuality
* Babble (not my voice). Incoherent words from an assortment of voices I might have heard throughout the day. This happened to me a LOT as a kid often as a cacophony of different voices, but less frequent and less intense as an adult.
Conceptuality
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Re: Making sense of types of thought

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:10 pm
Hazel wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:54 pm I've been watching myself sleep (creepy!) and have noticed some things about types of thoughts, both as falling asleep and while awake.

Here "thought" refers to auditory thoughts.

* There's a thread of thought I'm holding onto deliberately.
Mindfulness.
* There's a thread of thought I wander off on without really realizing it or being very aware of it until after the fact.
Distraction.
* There's a series of disjointed thoughts that don't really connect or make logical sense. I often notice this after the fact as I'm falling asleep.
Conceptuality.
* Babble. Chatter that's not quite clear what's being thought, but just makes the sound of thought. Like someone mumbling.
Conceptuality
* Babble (not my voice). Incoherent words from an assortment of voices I might have heard throughout the day. This happened to me a LOT as a kid often as a cacophony of different voices, but less frequent and less intense as an adult.
Conceptuality
:applause:
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Making sense of types of thought

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Anguttara Nikaya, Ekaka-nipata, XVI Ekadhammapali, 3.Tatiyavagga:

320. Bhikkhus, just as a little bit of excreta smells and should be got rid of, I do not specify thinking even for the fraction of a second.

321. Bhikkhus, just as a little bit of urine, ... re ... saliva, ... re ... pus, ... re ... blood smells and should be got rid of, I do not specify thinking{1) even for the fraction of a second.

Notes
( 1) I do not specify thinking even for a short second.`appamattakaṃpi bhavaṃ na vaṇṇemi' Always thoughts seek connections in the past, for the future or in the present
svaha
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They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
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Re: Making sense of types of thought

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Aemilius wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:13 pmAnguttara Nikaya, Ekaka-nipata, XVI Ekadhammapali, 3.Tatiyavagga:
320. Bhikkhus, just as a little bit of excreta smells and should be got rid of, I do not specify thinking even for the fraction of a second.
'I do not specify thinking' is at least a misleading translation of AN 1.328 by Sister Upalavanna.

Bodhi (p 121): 'I do not praise even a trifling amount of existence'
Sujato: 'I don’t approve of even a tiny bit of continued existence'
Thanissaro: 'I don’t praise even a tiny amount of becoming'
PTS: 'I do not recommend living, even if for only so short a time'
Mike Olds: 'so likewise do I not favour becoming even for a trifling time'

See also discussions on that passage here and here.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Making sense of types of thought

Post by Aemilius »

Astus wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:29 pm
Aemilius wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:13 pmAnguttara Nikaya, Ekaka-nipata, XVI Ekadhammapali, 3.Tatiyavagga:
320. Bhikkhus, just as a little bit of excreta smells and should be got rid of, I do not specify thinking even for the fraction of a second.
'I do not specify thinking' is at least a misleading translation of AN 1.328 by Sister Upalavanna.

Bodhi (p 121): 'I do not praise even a trifling amount of existence'
Sujato: 'I don’t approve of even a tiny bit of continued existence'
Thanissaro: 'I don’t praise even a tiny amount of becoming'
PTS: 'I do not recommend living, even if for only so short a time'
Mike Olds: 'so likewise do I not favour becoming even for a trifling time'

See also discussions on that passage here and here.
Personally I think that Utpalavanna's translation makes best sense of it. I have seen some of the others. The point is what is beyond thinking or what is beyond becoming? How can you get beyond becoming? Please tell me. What is left when you are beyond becoming, or beyond living? Death?
Beyond thinking there are the higher dhyanas. And they are accessible for at least some people.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Making sense of types of thought

Post by Astus »

Aemilius wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:32 amHow can you get beyond becoming? Please tell me. What is left when you are beyond becoming, or beyond living? Death?
The ending of becoming (bhavanirodha) is exactly the goal of Buddhism.

'When a noble disciple has thus understood being, the origin of being, the cessation of being, and the way leading to the cessation of being…he here and now makes an end of suffering. In that way too a noble disciple is one of right view…and has arrived at this true Dhamma.'
(MN 9.31 (p 137))

The cessation of becoming should not be confused with non-existence (vibhava), that is, the belief that an existing self becomes non-existent (see Iti 49), still, that is called the best outsider view (AN 10.29). What bhavanirodha means is nirvana in this life (AN 10.7), and even if one has doubts one should choose that as the right view:

'Now as to the recluses and brahmins who hold the doctrine and view “there definitely is no cessation of being,” if their word is true then it is certainly still possible that I might reappear [after death] among the gods of the immaterial realms who consist of perception. But as to the recluses and brahmins who hold the doctrine and view “there definitely is a cessation of being,” if their word is true then it is possible that I might here and now attain final Nibbāna. The view of those good recluses and brahmins who hold the doctrine and view “there definitely is no cessation of being” is close to lust, close to bondage, close to delighting, close to holding, close to clinging; but the view of those good recluses and brahmins who hold the doctrine and view “there definitely is cessation of being” is close to non-lust, close to non-bondage, close to nondelighting, close to non-holding, close to non-clinging.’ After reflecting thus, he practises the way to disenchantment with being, to the fading away and cessation of being.'
(MN 60.34 (p 517))

What should be recognised is that a being (satta) exists as craving and clinging (SN 23.2), and becoming is about deluded identification that is an outflow/defilement (āsava).

'How can one be certain here and now that this existence has ceased? This might sometimes appear as a big puzzle. But all the same, the arahant experiences the cessation of existence as a realization. That is why he even gives expression to it as: Bhavanirodho Nibbānaṃ, "cessation of existence is Nibbāna".
It comes about by this extinction of influxes. The very existence of 'existence' is especially due to the flowing in of influxes of existence. What is called 'existence' is not the apparent process of existing visible to others. It is something that pertains to one's own mental continuum.
For instance, when it is said that some person is in the world of sense desires, one might sometimes imagine it as living surrounded by objects of sense pleasure. But that is not always the case. It is the existence in a world of sense desires, built up by sensuous thoughts. It is the same with the realms of form and formless realms. Even those realms can be experienced and attained while living in this world itself.
Similarly, it is possible for one to realize the complete cessation of this existence while living in this very world. It is accomplished by winning to the realization that the influxes of sense desires, existence, and ignorance, no longer influence one's mind.'

(The Mind Stilled, vol 5, by Bhikkhu K. Ñāṇananda)
Beyond thinking there are the higher dhyanas. And they are accessible for at least some people.
However, bhava does not mean thinking.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Making sense of types of thought

Post by Aemilius »

"The ending of bhava or becoming" creates a misleading image. To my mind the Heart of Perfect Wisdom better expresses the actual truth:

"all dharmas are marked with emptiness ; they are not produced or stopped, not defiled or immaculate, not deficient or complete.

Therefore, O Sariputra, in emptiness there is no form nor feeling, nor perception, nor impulse, nor consciousness

No eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind ; No forms, sounds, smells, tastes, touchables or objects of mind ; No sight-organ element, and so forth, until we come to :

No mind-consciousness element ; There is no ignorance, no extinction of ignorance, and so forth, until we come to :

There is no decay and death, no extinction of decay and death. There is no suffering, no origination, no stopping, no path.

There is no cognition, no attainment and no non-attainment." (tr. Edward Conze)



If you consider that all teachings (sutras etc) are precepts or practice instructions, then the instruction of "casting away bhava" must refer to something that one actually experiences. The only plausible explanation is the thoughts and volitions about the present and future. This kind of instruction is found in the Mahamudra, where it is said that one should cease thinking or even cut off thoughts of past, present and future.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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