Why is enlightenment never mentioned in 4NT and 8FP?

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Supramundane
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Re: Why is enlightenment never mentioned in 4NT and 8FP?

Post by Supramundane »

Queequeg wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:54 pm In not so many words, isn't it because the 4NT and 8FP are framed as unbinding, which is also described as awakening (ie, enlightenment) in other contexts? Different ways to explain things.
That is one possibility. He doesn't mention Enlightenment because the entire process is meant to lead to Enlightenment; it is not part of the process or mentioned in the steps because it is beyond the process. That is one explanation.
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Re: Why is enlightenment never mentioned in 4NT and 8FP?

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Supramundane wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:58 pm
Queequeg wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:54 pm In not so many words, isn't it because the 4NT and 8FP are framed as unbinding, which is also described as awakening (ie, enlightenment) in other contexts? Different ways to explain things.
That is one possibility. He doesn't mention Enlightenment because the entire process is meant to lead to Enlightenment; it is not part of the process or mentioned in the steps because it is beyond the process. That is one explanation.
I've always thought the gist of the 4NT is "You suffer because you don't really understand what's going on. Understand and suffering will end." A way to poetically describe going from not understanding to understanding is to awaken, to go from the dark to the light. To be enlightened.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Why is enlightenment never mentioned in 4NT and 8FP?

Post by Supramundane »

Btw, QQ, your choice of words made me think of something. Unbinding is one translation for nirodha; another one is extinguishing. Funnily enough, one would describe gradual enlightenment, i.e. unraveling grandma's wool, while the latter would describe sudden enlightenment.

The dual meanings are quite economical at describing this dichotomy, but I'm sure it's a happy coincidence ... or is it?
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Re: Why is enlightenment never mentioned in 4NT and 8FP?

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The 33 synonyms of Nirvana

(SN 43:1-44, combined; IV 359-73) '' Thirty-Three Synonyms for Nibbaana "Monks, I will teach you the unconditioned and the path leading to the unconditioned. Listen... "And what, monks, is the unconditioned? The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion: this is called the unconditioned. "Monks, I will teach you the uninclined...the taintless...the truth...the far shore...the subtle...the very difficult to see...the unaging...the stable...the undisintegrating...the unmanifest...the unproliferated...the peaceful...the deathless...the sublime...the auspicious...the secure...the destruction of craving...the wonderful...the amazing...the unailing...the unailing state...Nibbaana...the unafflicted...dispassion...purity...freedom...nonattachment...the island...the shelter...the asylum...the refuge...the destination and the path leading to the destination. Listen.... 'And what, monks, is the destination? The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion: this is called the destination. ''
svaha
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Re: Why is enlightenment never mentioned in 4NT and 8FP?

Post by Malcolm »

Supramundane wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:46 pm I think it must be meaningful that enlightenment and Nirvana are not mentioned at all in the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path.
Nirodha and nirvana are synonyms.

So you have suffering, its source, and its cessation. These are not prescriptive terms, they are diagnostic terms. Then there is the eight fold path, which is prescriptive.

Awakening means recognizing these four things as truths. When one is not an ārya, these are the mundane four truths. When one has realized them through direct knowledge, they are the ārya's four truths:
"And, monks, as long as this knowledge & vision of mine — with its three rounds & twelve permutations concerning these four noble truths as they actually are present — was not pure, I did not claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & brahmans, its royalty & commonfolk. But as soon as this knowledge & vision of mine — with its three rounds & twelve permutations concerning these four noble truths as they actually are present — was truly pure, then I did claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its devas, Maras & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & brahmans, its royalty & commonfolk. Knowledge & vision arose in me: 'Unprovoked is my release. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.'"
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Re: Why is enlightenment never mentioned in 4NT and 8FP?

Post by Supramundane »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:25 pm
Supramundane wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:46 pm I think it must be meaningful that enlightenment and Nirvana are not mentioned at all in the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path.
Nirodha and nirvana are synonyms.

So you have suffering, its source, and its cessation. These are not prescriptive terms, they are diagnostic terms. Then there is the eight fold path, which is prescriptive.

Awakening means recognizing these four things as truths. When one is not an ārya, these are the mundane four truths. When one has realized them through direct knowledge, they are the ārya's four truths:
"And, monks, as long as this knowledge & vision of mine — with its three rounds & twelve permutations concerning these four noble truths as they actually are present — was not pure, I did not claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & brahmans, its royalty & commonfolk. But as soon as this knowledge & vision of mine — with its three rounds & twelve permutations concerning these four noble truths as they actually are present — was truly pure, then I did claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its devas, Maras & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & brahmans, its royalty & commonfolk. Knowledge & vision arose in me: 'Unprovoked is my release. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.'"
"Nirodha and nirvana are synonyms. "

Really? This changes everything then. Then the purpose of cessation is Nirvana....
I stand corrected.

"Awakening means recognizing these four things as truths. When one is not an ārya, these are the mundane four truths. When one has realized them through direct knowledge, they are the ārya's four truths:"

This reminds me of the Queen Kamala Sutra of the Lion's Roar in which they even go as far to say that there are Eight Noble Truths: four conditioned and four unconditioned.
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Re: Why is enlightenment never mentioned in 4NT and 8FP?

Post by Supramundane »

Aemilius wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:17 pm The 33 synonyms of Nirvana

(SN 43:1-44, combined; IV 359-73) '' Thirty-Three Synonyms for Nibbaana "Monks, I will teach you the unconditioned and the path leading to the unconditioned. Listen... "And what, monks, is the unconditioned? The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion: this is called the unconditioned. "Monks, I will teach you the uninclined...the taintless...the truth...the far shore...the subtle...the very difficult to see...the unaging...the stable...the undisintegrating...the unmanifest...the unproliferated...the peaceful...the deathless...the sublime...the auspicious...the secure...the destruction of craving...the wonderful...the amazing...the unailing...the unailing state...Nibbaana...the unafflicted...dispassion...purity...freedom...nonattachment...the island...the shelter...the asylum...the refuge...the destination and the path leading to the destination. Listen.... 'And what, monks, is the destination? The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion: this is called the destination. ''
The destruction of craving, of delusion = cessation

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Re: Why is enlightenment never mentioned in 4NT and 8FP?

Post by Natan »

Supramundane wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:32 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:25 pm
Supramundane wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:46 pm I think it must be meaningful that enlightenment and Nirvana are not mentioned at all in the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path.
Nirodha and nirvana are synonyms.

So you have suffering, its source, and its cessation. These are not prescriptive terms, they are diagnostic terms. Then there is the eight fold path, which is prescriptive.

Awakening means recognizing these four things as truths. When one is not an ārya, these are the mundane four truths. When one has realized them through direct knowledge, they are the ārya's four truths:
"And, monks, as long as this knowledge & vision of mine — with its three rounds & twelve permutations concerning these four noble truths as they actually are present — was not pure, I did not claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & brahmans, its royalty & commonfolk. But as soon as this knowledge & vision of mine — with its three rounds & twelve permutations concerning these four noble truths as they actually are present — was truly pure, then I did claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its devas, Maras & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & brahmans, its royalty & commonfolk. Knowledge & vision arose in me: 'Unprovoked is my release. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.'"
"Nirodha and nirvana are synonyms. "

Really? This changes everything then. Then the purpose of cessation is Nirvana....
I stand corrected.

"Awakening means recognizing these four things as truths. When one is not an ārya, these are the mundane four truths. When one has realized them through direct knowledge, they are the ārya's four truths:"

This reminds me of the Queen Kamala Sutra of the Lion's Roar in which they even go as far to say that there are Eight Noble Truths: four conditioned and four unconditioned.
Mahayana sort of hinges on a critique of some ancient sect that took cessation to mean a no subtle mental activity samadhi aka a frozen samadhi. Mahayana then says that is inferior and there is a higher freedom. Whereas to my reading of Pali suttas Buddha was talking about a nirvana that lasts for all activities of walking, standing, sitting and lying down, thus it couldn't be frozen. It's a cessation of suffering and realization or 4NT. Mahayana makes more sense when it talks about engaging in Buddha activities and what those imply.
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Re: Why is enlightenment never mentioned in 4NT and 8FP?

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Supramundane wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:05 pm Btw, QQ, your choice of words made me think of something. Unbinding is one translation for nirodha; another one is extinguishing. Funnily enough, one would describe gradual enlightenment, i.e. unraveling grandma's wool, while the latter would describe sudden enlightenment.

The dual meanings are quite economical at describing this dichotomy, but I'm sure it's a happy coincidence ... or is it?
Maybe more than that... In the gradual path, there are sudden moments, and ultimately, the final sudden moment. In the sudden path there is the gradual slog that actually characterizes the path.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Why is enlightenment never mentioned in 4NT and 8FP?

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It is mentioned. Mentioned in his very first teaching sermon, the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta: Setting in Motion the Wheel of Truth . SN 56.11
"Avoiding both these extremes, the Tathagata (The Perfect One)[1] has realized the Middle Path; it gives vision, gives knowledge, and leads to calm, to insight, to enlightenment and to Nibbana. And what is that Middle Path realized by the Tathagata...? It is the Noble Eightfold path, and nothing else, namely: right understanding, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration. This is the Middle Path realized by the Tathagata which gives vision, which gives knowledge, and leads to calm, to insight, to enlightenment, and to Nibbana.
8FP > to enlightenment, and to Nibbana
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Re: Why is enlightenment never mentioned in 4NT and 8FP?

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Actually, some may assume that the Four Noble Truths preceded the Noble Eightfold Path because the final Noble Truth instructs us to follow the Eightfold Path. However, I believe that the Buddha first followed the Middle Way and realized cessation of thought (nirodha), which then led to enlightenment, which he then memorialized in the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path. In the third Noble Truth, he refers to cessation of thought.

So technically, the Eightfold Path came first (inasmuch as the Eightfold path is the Middle Way) and then the Four Noble Truths, but since cessation of thought is the third Noble Truth, there is something cyclical about both.
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Re: Why is enlightenment never mentioned in 4NT and 8FP?

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Supramundane wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:22 pm but since cessation of thought
Error, the third truth is not "cessation of thought."
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Re: Why is enlightenment never mentioned in 4NT and 8FP?

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Nirodha is not cessation of thought? What is ceased then?
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Re: Why is enlightenment never mentioned in 4NT and 8FP?

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Supramundane wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:50 pm Nirodha is not cessation of thought? What is ceased then?
The causes and conditions for samsara. Hence the constant refrain, 'Birth is ended" and so on.
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Re: Why is enlightenment never mentioned in 4NT and 8FP?

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Supramundane wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:18 am I would like to hear people's view on some of my thoughts regarding the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path. 

We assume that the ultimate aim of Buddhists is to end rebirth, reach enlightenment and enter Nirvana. If so, then why are none of these concepts mentioned in the Four Noble Truths or in the Noble Eightfold Path? 

Three of the Noble Truths can be called non-permanent. There is one Noble Truth, however, that is permanent, which is the Third Noble Truth on cessation (as pointed out in Queen Srimālā of the Lion's Roar Sutra). 

One might say that the goal of cessation is to end rebirth, but we may also say that the goal of cessation is to reach enlightenment; and we may also conclude that the goal of cessation is to enter Nirvana. So if this is so important, why did the Buddha not mention any of these terms? In fact, there is zero mention of any of these terms in either the Eightfold Path or the Four Noble Truths.

Many concepts --- depending on your tradition --- can be qualified as the unspoken intention behind the Third Noble Truth. We may theorize that we seek cessation to find Fundamental Mind (Platform Sutra); or we may conclude that the purpose of cessation is to realize True Self (Maha Prajnaparamita Sutra); or the purpose of cessation may be to realize the Ocean Wisdom of Dharmadhātu ... or Bhutatahata... or Buddahood (Sutra of Complete Enlightenment). Which one is it?

Many of these terms may be for all intents and purposes interchangeable. Perhaps this is the reason why the Buddha did not wish to be pinned down to just one term. In other words, it is a given there are myriad paths in Buddhism, be it Buddhahood, true nature, original mind, Non-Duality, True Self, Fundamental Mind, etc. 

In the same way --- applying the foregoing argument to the Noble Eightfold Path or Bodhisattva Path --- the "right' is not meant to be right as in "correct' or as an Aristotelian concept of moderation, but "right" is probably an abbeviated rendition of the 'middle' in middle way. And the middle way is the very essence of the Buddha's thought system: it is his prime insight into the nature of reality, I would say. But, as is the case with the Four Noble Truths, the middle way is never even mentioned in the 8NT: it is splinters off into various paths, such as the Two Truths, non-dualism, among others.

Could it be that many of these concepts are in fact if not synonymous then concurrent and interconnected? If you end rebirth, obviously you will have reached enlightenment --- if you achieve total cessation, obviously, you will know your Buddhanature --- if you realize the Noble Eightfold Path, obviously you will be the Tathāgatagharba, etc etc. 

Thus, it was not necessary for the Buddha to name the ultimate goal of the 4NT and the N8FP since doing so would put limitations and barriers on something which is beyond words and limits... and he realized that there are many different paths... the key is to develop Bodhicitta and cultivate the six parāmitā in our own way.

Interested in hearing your views...
"Enlightenment" is not mentioned in the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path simply as follows:

ENLIGHTENMENT = 4NT + N8FP

"Enlightenment" is not the best word to translate the term "bodhi".

Enlightenment is a phenomenon, and "bodhi" is a process.

The best would be to translate as "awakening".

The process of awakening is to break away from what binds you to samsara, and that process is to perform the Noble Eightfold Path and understand the Four Noble Truths.
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Re: Why is enlightenment never mentioned in 4NT and 8FP?

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I think you are right. he discovered the middle way by practicing the Noble Eightfold Path before he had even articulated it. When he attained bodhi, he realized the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path. It is not mentioned in them because it subsumes both. This would mean that enlightenment is different from nirodha.

Perhaps they were just didactic tools in order to teach what he had learned in a very accessible way?

Sort of like "in 1492, Columbus sailed the ocean blue".
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Re: Why is enlightenment never mentioned in 4NT and 8FP?

Post by Malcolm »

Supramundane wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:00 pm This would mean that enlightenment is different from nirodha.
Bodhi is what leads to cessation. This all very clearly explained in Abhidharmakośa, which is itself a commentary on the four truths of nobles.
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Re: Why is enlightenment never mentioned in 4NT and 8FP?

Post by Supramundane »

I would like to read that, Malcolm. In some sutras the two seem to be conflated, but i agree that they are different.

Nirodha is a verb; nirvana a noun, are they conceptually different?

Or just two ways of expressing the same thing?
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Re: Why is enlightenment never mentioned in 4NT and 8FP?

Post by Malcolm »

Supramundane wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:07 pm I would like to read that, Malcolm. In some sutras the two seem to be conflated, but i agree that they are different.

Nirodha is a verb; nirvana a noun, are they conceptually different?

Or just two ways of expressing the same thing?
They are two ways of expressing the same thing.
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Re: Why is enlightenment never mentioned in 4NT and 8FP?

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Thank you
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