how empty is our reality?

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Aemilius
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Re: how empty is our reality?

Post by Aemilius »

Emptiness or non-emptiness of things is also a social contract. In a given social institution, a religious or a nonreligious organisation, certain events that defy the true existence of matter and/or atoms are accepted as miraculous and they are regarded to have really happened. Other social and religious organisations and institutions usually or quite often deny their reality. Contrary to what some persons claim, miracles of Gautama Buddha, and of later Buddhist masters, have always been and still are important for different Buddhist schools and for the Buddhist view of the nature of existence.

There is recent study about miracles in Buddhism: Miracles and Superhuman Powers in South Asian Buddhist Literature by Davis Fiordalis, 2008 https://www.academia.edu/1368127/Miracl ... literature
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Aemilius
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Re: how empty is our reality?

Post by Aemilius »

Pañcaviṃśati Prajña Paramita sutra: "Furthermore, O Subhūti, the bodhisattva-mahāsattva who wishes to become established in:
1. the emptiness of inner dharmas (adhyātmaśūnyatā),

2. the emptiness of outer dharmas (bahirdhāśūnyatā),

3. the emptiness of inner and outer dharmas (adhyātmabahirdhāśūnyatā),

4. the emptiness of emptiness (śūnyatāśūnyatā),

5. great emptiness (mahāśūnayatā),

6. the emptiness of the absolute (paramārthaśūnyatā),

7. the emptiness of the conditioned (saṃskṛtaśūnyatā),

8. the emptiness of the unconditioned (asaṃskṛtaśūnyatā),

9. absolute emptiness (atyantaśūnyatā),

10. the emptiness of beginningless dharmas (anagraśūnyatā),

11. the emptiness of ceaseless dharmas (anavakāraśūnyatā),

12. the emptiness of essences (prakṛtiśūnyatā),

13. the emptiness of specific characteristics (svalakṣaṇaśūnyatā),

14. the emptiness of all dharmas (sarvadharmaśūnyatā),

15. the emptiness consisting of non-preception (anupalambhaśūnyatā),

16. the emptiness of non-existence (abhāvaśūnyatā),

17. the emptiness of existence (svabhāvaśūnyatā),

18. the emptiness of non-existence and existence (abhāvasvabhāvaśūnyatā),

this bodhisattva-mahāsattva must practice the Perfection of Wisdom."
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
Malcolm
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Re: how empty is our reality?

Post by Malcolm »

White Sakura wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:53 am
Malcolm wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:12 pm
The appearance is not unreal, is it? The appearance is just empty.
You could not solve the problem that the water in the mirage is unreal.
A mirage is empty of water. It's merely an appearance that is mistaken for water. The point of the example is that appearances are deceptive, not that they do not exist. In order for an appearance to be deceptive, the appearance has to be real. No one is deceived by a nonexistent mirage.
White Sakura
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Re: how empty is our reality?

Post by White Sakura »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 2:14 pm
White Sakura wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:53 am
Malcolm wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:12 pm
The appearance is not unreal, is it? The appearance is just empty.
You could not solve the problem that the water in the mirage is unreal.
A mirage is empty of water. It's merely an appearance that is mistaken for water. The point of the example is that appearances are deceptive, not that they do not exist. In order for an appearance to be deceptive, the appearance has to be real. No one is deceived by a nonexistent mirage.
this is ok for me. Here you say, that the object, the water, does not exist. I mean, I take your statement like that.
White Sakura
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Re: how empty is our reality?

Post by White Sakura »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:15 pm
Cells are also composed of parts, there is nothing in the universe that is not composed of parts. So when those things are examined, they are found to empty. Empty does not mean "unreal," per se. It means empty of independent, aka inherent, existence. But things are also empty of dependent existence as well, since that is merely another form of inherent existence. Things are dependently originated, and thus they are empty and dependently designated. This is the middle way.
here you say, cells are not unreal per se. This means, objects are not unreal per se.
How does this go together with your statement above where you say, appearances exist, they are just deceptive. But the water seems only to be there because appearances are taken as water.

So the water, in the water example is unreal per se.
The cells, when you talked about cells, are not unreal per se.

But water and cells can both be reduced to "object" in this discussion.
So to me it occurs that your two statements contradict each other.

:thinking:
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: how empty is our reality?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

White Sakura wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:10 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:15 pm
Cells are also composed of parts, there is nothing in the universe that is not composed of parts. So when those things are examined, they are found to empty. Empty does not mean "unreal," per se. It means empty of independent, aka inherent, existence. But things are also empty of dependent existence as well, since that is merely another form of inherent existence. Things are dependently originated, and thus they are empty and dependently designated. This is the middle way.
here you say, cells are not unreal per se. This means, objects are not unreal per se.
How does this go together with your statement above where you say, appearances exist, they are just deceptive. But the water seems only to be there because appearances are taken as water.

So the water, in the water example is unreal per se.
The cells, when you talked about cells, are not unreal per se.

But water and cells can both be reduced to "object" in this discussion.
So to me it occurs that your two statements contradict each other.

:thinking:
You are confusing water as an abstract concept (topic of discussion) and water as occurring phenomena. They occur, or arise, as appearances.

Phenomena occur even though they lack true existence.

True Existence in the Buddhist context means:
self-causes or self-arising, and not the result of other occurrences.

What occurs? Events occur. Things that come together for some duration of time. That’s an event that occurs.
All phenomena, even planets and stars, are ultimately temporarily occurring events.
They only “exist” as temporary things.
In that sense, they lack true existence.

In this regard, “real” is actually a vague and useless term. “Real as far as what? Real according to what standard? Real as perceived by whom?”
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
muni
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Re: how empty is our reality?

Post by muni »

Alastair wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 5:09 am But the cells are real, just the way we see them as an object is illusional?
Cells are dependent as said, and so as well dependent on consciousness/mind. There cannot be "cell" somewhere on its' own without perceiving/apprehended mind.

The emptiness of reality can be understood in equipoise/meditation. It will as well avoid clinging to emptiness.

In our habitual understanding we see "our world" as reality, seen by "us" and we see "no whole". However there is no world on its' own without a mind/consciousness.

The consciousness of a small child, looks not so very conceptually to everything, it looks more relax, wondering. Later on we start to believe our thoughts, as the source of knowledge. In that way we hold on thoughts more and more and the phenomenal world becomes through that, more solid on its own.

In that way consciousness/mind falls into the confusion of duality. An ant sees its own world.
The world is reflecting/a reflection of mind and is not a separation of mind. In that way no thing is on itself, neither the perceiving mind is on itself.

That is I guess why those realized are acting spontaneous impartially for the welfare of all without any grasping. Grasping causes duality.

There is as well a saying: the fullness of emptiness. (appearances-emptiness inseparability.) By the grace of emptiness, everything is possible.

Again we need equipoise or guidance.
megaman chiquito
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Re: how empty is our reality?

Post by megaman chiquito »

well, atoms are mostly empty(I think theyre not "really" empty but have some sort of waves inside),but at least the distance between an electron and the center is as big as the distance between earth and the sun.
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Aemilius
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Re: how empty is our reality?

Post by Aemilius »

megaman chiquito wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 6:32 pm well, atoms are mostly empty(I think theyre not "really" empty but have some sort of waves inside),but at least the distance between an electron and the center is as big as the distance between earth and the sun.

Atoms are these days pictured differently, see the video below. But the main point is that according to certain Abdhidharma schools, Yogacara and Madhyamaka, atoms do not exist independently, outside of the perceiving mind. According to modern physics even if there is lot of space inside an atom, you can't transform water into earth or earth into water, or water into fire and fire into water, etc.. Which, how ever, is possible in the traditional Buddhist view of existence, as it is described in the five or six super-normal powers (abhijña).

svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: how empty is our reality?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Reality is completely full of emptiness
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
megaman chiquito
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Re: how empty is our reality?

Post by megaman chiquito »

Reality is completely full of emptiness
is that a Koan? Also I just want to add this:
the universe expands;upon what? :shrug:
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Aemilius
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Re: how empty is our reality?

Post by Aemilius »

There is an answer to the question into what does the universe expand, it is in the much detested ufo-lore, and it goes:

"The energies from this explosion initially shoot outward and then expanded for fractions of a second at 10exp7000 times the speed of light, as they displace other universes in an effort to create Its own space among the uncounted other universes, or Creations, already in existence. The seven Creational belts, or Universe belts, form simultaneously, of which one is the coarse-matter belt, the visible-matter-universe. In this belt originate coarse matters and gases and dust particles from which derive meteors, suns, comets, planets, nebulae, galaxies and other things when coarse matter gathers and condenses. In this way our Earth was born. This means our universe's birth and that of our Earth, along with foreign worlds, stars and galaxies and so forth, is a Creational-physical energy process and has nothing to do with a Creator God. These happenings are the result of purely spiritual-physical and material-physical laws and processes based upon physics and chemistry in every way and are, indeed, explainable through them."
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: how empty is our reality?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

How empty is our reality?
Our reality is so empty, that the more you try to move out of your comfort zone, the bigger it gets.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Re: how empty is our reality?

Post by Natan »

Alastair wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:35 pm I have a question about emptiness:

Is our world, wich we perceive as real, just as illusionary as a dream or an imagination?
Or is material somehow more than an imagination?


(Just to mention: I am 22 years old and buddhist since 15 years. That means: I've learned a few things about Buddhism as a child, but I only remember them vaguely. I am also no native english speaker.)
The best way to understand reality is a dream is to observe the past. It's only a memory, which is a dream
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Aemilius
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Re: how empty is our reality?

Post by Aemilius »

The past is present in many ways

Image
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
master of puppets
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Re: how empty is our reality?

Post by master of puppets »

Aemilius wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 7:08 am The past is present in many ways
I put it in this way; there is no past and the future is today.

:D
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: how empty is our reality?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

White Sakura wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:53 am
Malcolm wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:12 pm
The appearance is not unreal, is it? The appearance is just empty.
You could not solve the problem that the water in the mirage is unreal. And the Buddha gave the example with the water in the mirage. And the comparisons are in Madhyamaka texts. And I asked you, how does this fit to your statement.

And now you just dropped the comparison.

:?
“Not unreal” means that it occurs. It arises in one capacity or another.
“Empty” means it lacks any intrinsic reality.

Thus, if you ask is a mirage is really occurring, the answer is yes. Two or more people can see it, even though it is an optical illusion.
At the same time, if you ask if the mirage has any actual substance to it, the answer is no. It is empty, being merely the result of a confluence of causes: air temperature, light, and so on.
‘Yes’ and ‘no’ in this context do not contradict each other.

Likewise, water and cells occur as temporary arisings, but they are empty of any intrinsic reality. It’s not a contradiction.

You might prefer to say that an object can be considered real in some way, and yet not real in another way.

We say that the Sun rises in the morning and sets in the evening. From our perspective, that’s true. From a scientific perspective, it’s false, because really it is the Earth rotating which causes the appearance of the Sun moving across the sky.

Things can be both true and false, real and unreal.
.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Aemilius
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Re: how empty is our reality?

Post by Aemilius »

master of puppets wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 11:27 am
Aemilius wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 7:08 am The past is present in many ways
I put it in this way; there is no past and the future is today.

:D
In Buddhism we have reincarnation, and thus we have even more past present (in our bodies, mind and environment) than paleontology, geology and other sciences tell us. You really find out how much you believe, or don't believe, in reincarnation when you start reading Jataka and Avadana stories. Reading them has a great impact, in my opinion. Their time span goes beyond one kalpa or world period.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
shanyin
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Re: how empty is our reality?

Post by shanyin »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:56 am
Alastair wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 5:09 am But the cells are real, just the way we see them as an object is illusional?
Cells are made of molecules, molecules of atoms, and atoms are just energy. In fact, there is more space between atoms than there is space occupied by atoms.
Is that true?? When was that verified
Nadereme
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Re: how empty is our reality?

Post by Nadereme »

Aemilius wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 7:36 am There is an answer to the question into what does the universe expand, it is in the much detested ufo-lore, and it goes:

"The energies from this explosion initially shoot outward and then expanded for fractions of a second at 10exp7000 times the speed of light, as they displace other universes in an effort to create Its own space among the uncounted other universes, or Creations, already in existence. The seven Creational belts, or Universe belts, form simultaneously, of which one is the coarse-matter belt, the visible-matter-universe. In this belt originate coarse matters and gases and dust particles from which derive meteors, suns, comets, planets, nebulae, galaxies and other things when coarse matter gathers and condenses. In this way our Earth was born. This means our universe's birth and that of our Earth, along with foreign worlds, stars and galaxies and so forth, is a Creational-physical energy process and has nothing to do with a Creator God. These happenings are the result of purely spiritual-physical and material-physical laws and processes based upon physics and chemistry in every way and are, indeed, explainable through them."
This all assumes a mind-independent view not based on emptiness. It’s also a materialist and linear view.
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