Eight Consciousnesses and Trikaya

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
Post Reply
User avatar
Supramundane
Posts: 621
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 11:38 am
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia

Eight Consciousnesses and Trikaya

Post by Supramundane »

When Sigmund Freud set about to describe the psyche, he spoke about it from (1) an economic perspective, by economic he meant transfer of energy. Using this model he described how energy conservation and management led to various processes, such as sublimation, repression, identifcation, among others. He also used (2) a topographical model, by this he meant conflicts within the psyche, namely, the id, the ego and the superego.

Of course, he explained that these were simply abstract constructs to describe the dynamics within one's psyche, and they were not real structures that could be seen under a microscope, for example. They had no organic basis.

I wonder if, in the same vein, we can approximate the Trikaya to the Eight Consciousnesses. The Trikaya are meant to describe the entirety of human existence with (1) Nirmanakāya, corporal component, (2) Sambhogakāya, an enjoyment component; and (3) a Dharma component. The Eight Consciousnesses explain much the same, but with a different architecture. They describe the realms of the senses, and as for the Buddha-nature part, it is the Eighth Consciousness. If the Eighth Consciousness is purified, some schools of thought believe that it is can be converted into our true Tathāgatagarbha nature.

Do you believe that the Eight Consciousnesses and the Trikaya are rough equivalents? Are they simply two different theoretical paradigms to describe the same thing?

For reference, the Alaya consciousness referred to as the luminous true mind can be found in the Surangama Sutra;
Transformation of the Eighth Consciousnesses into the Four Wisdoms (purification into Buddha-nature) can be found in the Platform Sutra;
In the Lankavatāra Sutra, Tathāgatagarbha is equated with the Eighth Consciousness.

*The Buddha also points out that we should not reify the Eighth Consciousness into a Self. It is simply a means (upaya) of apprehending this subject.
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 9437
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Eight Consciousnesses and Trikaya

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Supramundane wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:04 am The Trikaya are meant to describe the entirety of human existence
Let’s start with this one.
Is this a true statement?
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
User avatar
Aemilius
Posts: 4604
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:44 am

Re: Eight Consciousnesses and Trikaya

Post by Aemilius »

Third Karmapa's Distinguishing Consciousness and Wisdom discusses this in terms of transforming the eight consciousnesses into the five wisdoms.

Image
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
User avatar
Supramundane
Posts: 621
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 11:38 am
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia

Re: Eight Consciousnesses and Trikaya

Post by Supramundane »

Aemilius wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:47 pm Third Karmapa's Distinguishing Consciousness and Wisdom discusses this in terms of transforming the eight consciousnesses into the five wisdoms.

Image
Yes, this seems to be a theme in Chan Buddhism too. Instead of focusing on purifying the alaya consciousness, Chan holds that it is possible to purify all the consciousnesses into wisdom. Thanks for the link too!
Natan
Posts: 3685
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Eight Consciousnesses and Trikaya

Post by Natan »

Supramundane wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:04 am When Sigmund Freud set about to describe the psyche, he spoke about it from (1) an economic perspective, by economic he meant transfer of energy. Using this model he described how energy conservation and management led to various processes, such as sublimation, repression, identifcation, among others. He also used (2) a topographical model, by this he meant conflicts within the psyche, namely, the id, the ego and the superego.

Of course, he explained that these were simply abstract constructs to describe the dynamics within one's psyche, and they were not real structures that could be seen under a microscope, for example. They had no organic basis.

I wonder if, in the same vein, we can approximate the Trikaya to the Eight Consciousnesses. The Trikaya are meant to describe the entirety of human existence with (1) Nirmanakāya, corporal component, (2) Sambhogakāya, an enjoyment component; and (3) a Dharma component. The Eight Consciousnesses explain much the same, but with a different architecture. They describe the realms of the senses, and as for the Buddha-nature part, it is the Eighth Consciousness. If the Eighth Consciousness is purified, some schools of thought believe that it is can be converted into our true Tathāgatagarbha nature.

Do you believe that the Eight Consciousnesses and the Trikaya are rough equivalents? Are they simply two different theoretical paradigms to describe the same thing?

For reference, the Alaya consciousness referred to as the luminous true mind can be found in the Surangama Sutra;
Transformation of the Eighth Consciousnesses into the Four Wisdoms (purification into Buddha-nature) can be found in the Platform Sutra;
In the Lankavatāra Sutra, Tathāgatagarbha is equated with the Eighth Consciousness.

*The Buddha also points out that we should not reify the Eighth Consciousness into a Self. It is simply a means (upaya) of apprehending this subject.
It is the Vajrayana view, yes.
User avatar
Aemilius
Posts: 4604
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:44 am

Re: Eight Consciousnesses and Trikaya

Post by Aemilius »

Hakuin Ekaku (1685- 1768) has written about these same wisdoms. They are known as four wisdoms in the tradition that reached japan, but they are clearly the same teaching and same wisdoms.

Explication of the Four Knowledges of Buddhahood
Translated by Thomas F. Cleary

In: The Original Face: An Anthology of Rinzai Zen, Grove Press, 1978. pp. 129-140.

In: "Kensho: The Heart of Zen," translated by Thomas Cleary, under the title "The Four Cognitions"
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
User avatar
Supramundane
Posts: 621
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 11:38 am
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia

Re: Eight Consciousnesses and Trikaya

Post by Supramundane »

What is interesting is how this is to be accomplished. In both these approaches, we note that the pure and the impure are present simultaneously, as one can be converted into the other, correct? The Alaya storehouse consciousness contains pure and impure elements.

I read a passage in a sutra about a mindstream, which is ego-less and therefore purified. The sutra goes on to say that turning away from the ego guides us to the True Mind. The True Mind is thus an absence rather than a presence..
User avatar
Aemilius
Posts: 4604
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:44 am

Re: Eight Consciousnesses and Trikaya

Post by Aemilius »

In Lankavatara sutra the transformation of consciousness is called Paravritti or Asraya-paravritti, and there is previous discussion of it: https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 2&start=20
D.T. Suzuki gives the impression that paravritti is a radical and profound event, that it is a purification of the mind stream and the universe, purification of subject and object, because they both arise from the Alaya.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
User avatar
Supramundane
Posts: 621
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 11:38 am
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia

Re: Eight Consciousnesses and Trikaya

Post by Supramundane »

The mind of 'is' and 'is not' must be banished. As long as we are trapped in the Self, we cannot access the True Mind. If consciousness can be transmuted into wisdom, all external things will vanish. Perception is a second moon like a reflection on water. Consciousness is delusion and discriminates into real and unreal. But there's only one real moon. There's only one reality and, to access it, we must end attachment to the Self. After eradicating relative form, wonderful (surūpa) form will appear.

The senses are neither existing nor non-existent; they are not mind nor body and do not exist beyond them. The six changing senses can only be made extinct through Nirvana. If I eradicate all Dharma (forms and ideas), I realize Nirvana...

Too bad the sutra does not explain the mechanics of how to do this!

All it tells us is that focusing on any of the sense bases is sufficient to go beyond them. Chan seems to prefer a method based on hearing, but in theory it can be any of the sense bases.
User avatar
Aemilius
Posts: 4604
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:44 am

Re: Eight Consciousnesses and Trikaya

Post by Aemilius »

Candrakirti (and Nagarjuna) say that nirvana is that nothing arises or ceases (essentially), in Reason Sixty (Yuktisastika) & the Commentary of Candrakirti.
They both say that it is a totally wrong idea that nirvana would be nothingness, i.e. that cessation would mean a literal ceasing of senses and sense objects. To begin with nothing has arisen (with an essence or essentially).
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
User avatar
Supramundane
Posts: 621
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 11:38 am
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia

Re: Eight Consciousnesses and Trikaya

Post by Supramundane »

Aemilius wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:47 pm Candrakirti (and Nagarjuna) say that nirvana is that nothing arises or ceases (essentially), in Reason Sixty (Yuktisastika) & the Commentary of Candrakirti.
They both say that it is a totally wrong idea that nirvana would be nothingness, i.e. that cessation would mean a literal ceasing of senses and sense objects. To begin with nothing has arisen (with an essence or essentially).
You are correct. Nirvana is not nothingness nor is it emptiness. It is the fourth element.
User avatar
Supramundane
Posts: 621
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 11:38 am
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia

Re: Eight Consciousnesses and Trikaya

Post by Supramundane »

Although Buddhists do not like the term true mind or true self, both these terms are used in the Surangama sutra to designate Nirvana. The logic of this is that there are Dharma that are foreign, i.e they come and go, and Dharma which are true, i.e. they are inherent.

Any Dharma which is empty will of course come and go. They are therefore foreign. What remains is the true self, i.e. the Buddha mind.

The Samadhi Gateway leads to the True Self by abnegation of the False Mind, mundane consciousness.
User avatar
Aemilius
Posts: 4604
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:44 am

Re: Eight Consciousnesses and Trikaya

Post by Aemilius »

If you manage to get into the dhyana without concepts, there are no concepts of self or no-self.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
Post Reply

Return to “Mahāyāna Buddhism”