Pan-dreamlike nature

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Viach
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Pan-dreamlike nature

Post by Viach »

Namely, the dreamlike nature of samsara "legalizes" the so-called "miracles" in Buddhism, for the content of a (karmic) dream has no rigid rules. "Miracles" are homogeneous to the essence of dreams.
Therefore, I also do not see any problems with the fact that Mount Sumeru was the content of the collective karmic dream at the time of Buddha , and today the content of the collective karmic dream is the so-called "scientific progress" and the "mythology" of Mount Sumeru., for dreaming is total, and its content is plastic and determined exclusively by the accumulated karma of living beings.
Malcolm
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Re: Pan-dreamlike nature

Post by Malcolm »

Viach wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:03 am Namely, the dreamlike nature of samsara "legalizes" the so-called "miracles" in Buddhism, for the content of a (karmic) dream has no rigid rules. "Miracles" are homogeneous to the essence of dreams.
Therefore, I also do not see any problems with the fact that Mount Sumeru was the content of the collective karmic dream at the time of Buddha , and today the content of the collective karmic dream is the so-called "scientific progress" and the "mythology" of Mount Sumeru., for dreaming is total, and its content is plastic and determined exclusively by the accumulated karma of living beings.
So, a cittamatrin.
Viach
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Re: Pan-dreamlike nature

Post by Viach »

(Translation from Russian (https://m.vk.com/@zemlizemli-suschestvuet-li-gora-meru) Google Translate)

Rinchen Tenzin Rinpoche:
One of the students recently asked me if during the mandala offering it is possible to offer not Mount Meru with four continents, but something else - for the reason that it is difficult to believe in the existence of this mountain. Like, we don't see it anywhere, and its existence has not been proven by science. I want to clarify this point for everyone.

Mount Meru exists in the perception of gods and demigods, people really are not able to see it, except in rare cases. But for the very reason that the deities perceive this mountain, we also visualize and offer it.

Do not assume that everything that we do not see, as well as not proven by science, simply does not exist. For example, we also never saw our ancestors who lived eight generations ago, but this cannot serve as proof that they did not exist?

Some things, in our current state, we cannot simply take and check. It is clear that we are not used to these things, so it is only natural that faith does not arise easily and simply.

Look at it from this point of view: when we sleep, then we perceive everything that we see in a dream as something absolutely real. When we wake up, it all disappears. Dreams, like conventional "reality", are only our appearances, that is, what we see due to our accumulated karma.

The worlds of hells, hungry ghosts, gods, demigods are also appearances that arise in consciousness. The only way these appearances differ from ordinary dreams is that we can wake up from a dream, and the appearances continue until the karma associated with them ends. The process is exactly the same, only to "wake up", you have to wait until the karma is exhausted.

The same is with Mount Meru. Due to the accumulated karma, the gods and demigods see Mount Meru and perceive their abodes there as places where they experience happiness. This is their appearance, which you and I do not have. At the same time, the hellish beings experience the appearance of hells, suffer there from cold or heat, and for them it is absolutely real, although we again do not see any hells here. In addition to Mount Meru, gods and demigods perceive many other things that fill their worlds, but they do not perceive the world of people in the same way.

Different karma, different appearances, different perceptions. What karma we have accumulated, we see. But during the offering of the mandala, we use all the best appearances that can only be in the higher worlds of samsara, therefore we offer not only what is in the world of people, but also what is in the world of gods.

Some teachers are now saying that perhaps Mount Meru really does not exist. I think that these teachers are simply not familiar with the texts that say that in the human world, Mount Meru can only be seen by those who have certain unusual abilities. As a rule, these are the people who see spirits, they can also see Mount Meru. The text given by Buddha Tonpa Shenrab describes this.

Sometimes they also ask the following question: why do some texts indicate some specific characteristics of appearances, for example, it is said that the hells are at a certain specific distance underground? After all, if this is an appearance, then there can be no such figures, since there are no hells in our world. The answer is simple: different presentation of the same information for people with different abilities. There are people who take everything literally, for them there is such a way to somehow lead them to the Teaching. Those who have higher abilities, for those, the presentation is different. If someone tried to explain to people who lived half a century ago that there will come a time in the future when it will be possible to communicate directly with a person on the other side of the earth, they would not be able to believe it. Such information simply would not fit in their minds. Therefore, for those who cannot understand that everything is only our appearance, there are such specific explanations.
Malcolm
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Re: Pan-dreamlike nature

Post by Malcolm »

HHDL disagrees strongly with what you have quoted below.


Viach wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:15 am (Translation from Russian (https://m.vk.com/@zemlizemli-suschestvuet-li-gora-meru) Google Translate)

Rinchen Tenzin Rinpoche:
One of the students recently asked me if during the mandala offering it is possible to offer not Mount Meru with four continents, but something else - for the reason that it is difficult to believe in the existence of this mountain. Like, we don't see it anywhere, and its existence has not been proven by science. I want to clarify this point for everyone.
PeterC
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Re: Pan-dreamlike nature

Post by PeterC »

These are really, really bad arguments
Viach wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:15 am Do not assume that everything that we do not see, as well as not proven by science, simply does not exist. For example, we also never saw our ancestors who lived eight generations ago, but this cannot serve as proof that they did not exist?
This refers to something which does not exist now, but existed in a different time. Sumeru is asserted to exist (in some sense) now. No science-based theory denies the existence of ancestors for living beings.
The worlds of hells, hungry ghosts, gods, demigods are also appearances that arise in consciousness. The only way these appearances differ from ordinary dreams is that we can wake up from a dream, and the appearances continue until the karma associated with them ends. The process is exactly the same, only to "wake up", you have to wait until the karma is exhausted.
The whole 'like a dream' analogy is just that - a simplistic analogy to help people think differently about their experiences. It's not an argument and should never be used as one.
The same is with Mount Meru. Due to the accumulated karma, the gods and demigods see Mount Meru and perceive their abodes there as places where they experience happiness. This is their appearance, which you and I do not have. At the same time, the hellish beings experience the appearance of hells, suffer there from cold or heat, and for them it is absolutely real, although we again do not see any hells here. In addition to Mount Meru, gods and demigods perceive many other things that fill their worlds, but they do not perceive the world of people in the same way.
For this to be an argument we would need to have verified the experience of devas, asuras and so forth, which we have not.
Some teachers are now saying that perhaps Mount Meru really does not exist. I think that these teachers are simply not familiar with the texts that say that in the human world, Mount Meru can only be seen by those who have certain unusual abilities. As a rule, these are the people who see spirits, they can also see Mount Meru. The text given by Buddha Tonpa Shenrab describes this.
This is the only real argument, a textual one: there are texts that say this. Which is fine, and should be the only argument advanced here, that texts say to practice with a certain visualization, so do that.
Sometimes they also ask the following question: why do some texts indicate some specific characteristics of appearances, for example, it is said that the hells are at a certain specific distance underground? After all, if this is an appearance, then there can be no such figures, since there are no hells in our world. The answer is simple: different presentation of the same information for people with different abilities. There are people who take everything literally, for them there is such a way to somehow lead them to the Teaching. Those who have higher abilities, for those, the presentation is different. If someone tried to explain to people who lived half a century ago that there will come a time in the future when it will be possible to communicate directly with a person on the other side of the earth, they would not be able to believe it. Such information simply would not fit in their minds. Therefore, for those who cannot understand that everything is only our appearance, there are such specific explanations.
People a century ago, two centuries ago, ten centuries ago and today would all agree on whether they were standing next to a mountain or not. They might interpret technology differently, or have different ideas about what is or isn't possible, but they wouldn't disagree on observations of common physical phenomena.

I happen to do visualization of Mount Meru because it's easier than trying to visualize the *actual* universe, and has the same meaning. That doesn't mean that I believe it exists in any sense. It's a bit like looking at the standard map of the world, which is a gross distortion of what the physical world actually looks like - but it serves the same purpose.
Natan
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Re: Pan-dreamlike nature

Post by Natan »

Mount Meru was not an invention of Buddha. It was a commonly held idea by the people of the time. It meant beginning of the universe or center if the universe. Buddha used common words to express higher ideas. He captured his audience with their existing biases and tried to use that to help them see something more. Buddha did not believe in Mount Sumeru or Jambalvida or any or even six samsara realms. He did not have beliefs. He did not disbelieve. He just stopped speculating.
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Ayu
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Re: Pan-dreamlike nature

Post by Ayu »

I believe the question is answered. Discussing it over and over again seems to make no sense.
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