Formally Addressing Forum Users

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
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FiveSkandhas
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Re: Formally Addressing Forum Users

Post by FiveSkandhas »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:31 pm
Inedible wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 8:56 am
I guess my point is that unless there is some official way for titles to be verified and given a status here, that it would be better not to have them. If only to protect idiots like me from the bad karma from assuming they aren't real and they just like the attention.
In fact, it was the attempt on Esangha to get people posing as ordained people on the forum, lama so and so, zen master x, bhiksu sunya, etc., that brought created the most trouble and bad feelings. Why? Because when they presented spurious or otherwise unverifiable information, we had to curtail their participation. A number of zen priests argued they were every bit as much ordained as a fully ordained bhikshu. We did not accept this position, and I still don’t. But it lead to a lot of bad feeling.
It seems to me that one way to cut through this problem would be to get people to use the titles granted to them in the language of their tradition. Soto and Rinzai Zen both have very complex hierarchical ranking systems; if somebody is officially certified in one of these traditions they should have a rank. Which they should use.
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
Malcolm
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Re: Formally Addressing Forum Users

Post by Malcolm »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:39 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:31 pm
Inedible wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 8:56 am
I guess my point is that unless there is some official way for titles to be verified and given a status here, that it would be better not to have them. If only to protect idiots like me from the bad karma from assuming they aren't real and they just like the attention.
In fact, it was the attempt on Esangha to get people posing as ordained people on the forum, lama so and so, zen master x, bhiksu sunya, etc., that brought created the most trouble and bad feelings. Why? Because when they presented spurious or otherwise unverifiable information, we had to curtail their participation. A number of zen priests argued they were every bit as much ordained as a fully ordained bhikshu. We did not accept this position, and I still don’t. But it lead to a lot of bad feeling.
It seems to me that one way to cut through this problem would be to get people to use the titles granted to them in the language of their tradition. Soto and Rinzai Zen both have very complex hierarchical ranking systems; if somebody is officially certified in one of these traditions they should have a rank. Which they should use.
There is a major difference between this forum and E-Sangha. At its peak that latter had 50,000 users. There were child predators and charlatans, people posing as teachers, etc. It was a major headache. This is why we felt we had to institute standards. At one point, I even had a to call the FBI to deal with a pedophile. Then Jundo decided to threaten to sue us, and forum began to split up. When it crashed, and the backups were lost in the process, that was the end of it. Then David copied E-Sangha, and opened Dhammawheel, then Dharmawheel.

As for titles, thats fine, but that presented another problem, especially with Zen. American Zen is not Japanese Zen, and often there is no official recognition of Zen teachers by Japanese institutions.

Also, in Tibetan Buddhism, there is no official system for handing out titles other than Geshe, Khenpo, and Tulku. It is all ad hoc. There are no official qualifications for assuming the title "Lama" other than being given the title by one's teacher or, as is often the case, moving to America and calling oneself Lama x (this is called ocean promotion). The exception to this is Geshe and Khenpo, these are rigorous 12-14 year programs, with official degrees, ranks, etc. But there are no geshes and khenpos here as far as I know.

Of course, I have various certificates from various teachers, the Kazhipa degree given to me by HH Sakya Trizen; the title ācārya (slob dpon) in the Sakya school granted to me by the Buddhist Chaplain of Harvard, and former administrative head for all Sakya monasteries in India; another is the "lama" title granted to me by the Nyingma abbot of a small Himalayan monastery in Solu Kombhu region who resides in New Orleans when he is not in Nepal; and my Tibetan Medical degree from Shang Shung, etc. but I don't use those here, just as I do not advertise my teaching here (or anywhere, for that matter).
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FiveSkandhas
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Re: Formally Addressing Forum Users

Post by FiveSkandhas »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 2:31 pm
FiveSkandhas wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:39 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:31 pm

In fact, it was the attempt on Esangha to get people posing as ordained people on the forum, lama so and so, zen master x, bhiksu sunya, etc., that brought created the most trouble and bad feelings. Why? Because when they presented spurious or otherwise unverifiable information, we had to curtail their participation. A number of zen priests argued they were every bit as much ordained as a fully ordained bhikshu. We did not accept this position, and I still don’t. But it lead to a lot of bad feeling.
It seems to me that one way to cut through this problem would be to get people to use the titles granted to them in the language of their tradition. Soto and Rinzai Zen both have very complex hierarchical ranking systems; if somebody is officially certified in one of these traditions they should have a rank. Which they should use.
There is a major difference between this forum and E-Sangha. At its peak that latter had 50,000 users. There were child predators and charlatans, people posing as teachers, etc. It was a major headache. This is why we felt we had to institute standards. At one point, I even had a to call the FBI to deal with a pedophile. Then Jundo decided to threaten to sue us, and forum began to split up. When it crashed, and the backups were lost in the process, that was the end of it. Then David copied E-Sangha, and opened Dhammawheel, then Dharmawheel.

As for titles, thats fine, but that presented another problem, especially with Zen. American Zen is not Japanese Zen, and often there is no official recognition of Zen teachers by Japanese institutions.

Also, in Tibetan Buddhism, there is no official system for handing out titles other than Geshe, Khenpo, and Tulku. It is all ad hoc. There are no official qualifications for assuming the title "Lama" other than being given the title by one's teacher or, as is often the case, moving to America and calling oneself Lama x (this is called ocean promotion). The exception to this is Geshe and Khenpo, these are rigorous 12-14 year programs, with official degrees, ranks, etc. But there are no geshes and khenpos here as far as I know.

Of course, I have various certificates from various teachers, the Kazhipa degree given to me by HH Sakya Trizen; the title ācārya (slob dpon) in the Sakya school granted to me by the Buddhist Chaplain of Harvard, and former administrative head for all Sakya monasteries in India; another is the "lama" title granted to me by the Nyingma abbot of a small Himalayan monastery in Solu Kombhu region who resides in New Orleans when he is not in Nepal; and my Tibetan Medical degree from Shang Shung, etc. but I don't use those here, just as I do not advertise my teaching here (or anywhere, for that matter).
I remember the heyday of esangha and imagine it must have been a constant stressor to run an operation that large. For what it's worth i think you and your team did a great job in general.

Anyway, the topic at hand...reflecting on what you wrote, and considering the general controversy that has attended much of Mahayana titling both in our own time and in history... it seems increasingly that the whole issue of "revealing your status" is shot through with pitfalls.

I'm leaning toward the opinion that for the most part, a deemphasizing of the entire issue of a poster's credentials is probably for the best on a semi-anonymous forum. Although in some specific cases if a person has deep experience with a given topic, it might be helpful to make the fact known.
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
Tata1
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Re: Formally Addressing Forum Users

Post by Tata1 »

I think this forum has a good way to self moderate itself. Self imposed teachers dont last here due to the seriousness of the forum users.
Look what happened to someone like kim here
Genjo Conan
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Re: Formally Addressing Forum Users

Post by Genjo Conan »

I help moderate the Zen Buddhism subreddit (as distinct from the Zen subreddit, which is...heterodox) and, for what it's worth, we have a policy of specifically prohibiting claims of authority. We found that not having such a rule invited people to play teacher, which really isn't the vibe we're going for. Especially since we have no way of verifying whether someone actually is authorized to teach: on the internet, nobody knows that you're a dog.

Reddit is, of course, a different scene than DW. Although we have some folks over there who have both practiced Buddhism and participated in the sub for a long time, on the whole, it tends to be a young and relatively inexperienced crowd, who tend not to participate for very long. In general, I think the participants here tend to have more years of practice under their belt, and tend to stay around longer. So such a rule may have less use here.

But I would also note that the most divisive poster I can think of here was undeniably, verifiably authorized to teach in a recognized Japanese lineage. Didn't stop him from being wrong.

In general, on the internet, I think arguments should stand or fall on their own.
Last edited by Genjo Conan on Sat Jun 26, 2021 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Formally Addressing Forum Users

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Whenever you give a title to someone,
All of a sudden, they are entitled.
So, there’s that!
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Malcolm
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Re: Formally Addressing Forum Users

Post by Malcolm »

Genjo Conan wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 5:56 pm

But I would also note that the most divisive poster I can think of here was undeniably, verifiably authorized to teach in a recognized Japanese lineage. Didn't stop him from being wrong.
If its who I think it was, he was disowned by the very same lineage.
Genjo Conan
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Re: Formally Addressing Forum Users

Post by Genjo Conan »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 6:54 pm
Genjo Conan wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 5:56 pm

But I would also note that the most divisive poster I can think of here was undeniably, verifiably authorized to teach in a recognized Japanese lineage. Didn't stop him from being wrong.
If its who I think it was, he was disowned by the very same lineage.
Yes, and yes. Though after his time here ended.
reiun
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Re: Formally Addressing Forum Users

Post by reiun »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 2:31 pm Of course, I have various certificates from various teachers, the Kazhipa degree given to me by HH Sakya Trizen; the title ācārya (slob dpon) in the Sakya school granted to me by the Buddhist Chaplain of Harvard, and former administrative head for all Sakya monasteries in India; another is the "lama" title granted to me by the Nyingma abbot of a small Himalayan monastery in Solu Kombhu region who resides in New Orleans when he is not in Nepal; and my Tibetan Medical degree from Shang Shung, etc. but I don't use those here, just as I do not advertise my teaching here (or anywhere, for that matter).
FiveSkandhas wrote: Although in some specific cases if a person has deep experience with a given topic, it might be helpful to make the fact known.
This can be done via reminding. That way, there will be a proper truthful context and easy gravitas for experts on behalf of and through participants in each and every discussion, resulting in transmission of very humble opinions (irrespective of wishes or intentions, which should not come into play). Let's give the scholars their due
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Formally Addressing Forum Users

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Inedible wrote:
I guess my point is that unless there is some official way for titles to be verified and given a status here, that it would be better not to have them. If only to protect idiots like me from the bad karma from assuming they aren't real and they just like the attention.
The simplest thing is just to respond to and consider what people write, and not sweat credentials much on DW.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
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