Let's talk about common misconceptions of Buddhism

[Konchog Thogme Jampa]

I like incompleteness for Dukkha or unsatisfactoriness. All of Samsara is Dukkha however many desires are fulfilled things are still unresolved our Samsara continues on unceasingly.

Not to mention the potential for immense suffering is always possible by varying degrees

Edit I know Desire is utilised in Secret Mantra just speaking from an ordinary perspective

[Malcolm]

The etymology of term to suffer:

suffer (v.)
mid-13c., "allow to occur or continue, permit, tolerate, fail to prevent or suppress," also "to be made to undergo, endure, be subjected to" (pain, death, punishment, judgment, grief), from Anglo-French suffrir, Old French sofrir "bear, endure, resist; permit, tolerate, allow" (Modern French souffrir), from Vulgar Latin *sufferire, variant of Latin sufferre "to bear, undergo, endure, carry or put under," from sub "up, under" (see sub-) + ferre "to carry, bear," from PIE root *bher- (1) "to carry," also "to bear children."

https://www.etymonline.com/word/suffer

suffering (n.)
"patient enduring of pain, inconvenience, loss, etc.," mid-14c.; "undergoing of punishment, affliction, etc.," late 14c., verbal noun from suffer (v.). Meaning "a painful condition, pain felt" is from late 14c.

https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=suffering

Hence the suitability of translating dukkha as suffering.

[Kim O'Hara]

The etymology of term to suffer:

suffer (v.)
mid-13c., "allow to occur or continue, permit, tolerate, fail to prevent or suppress," also "to be made to undergo, endure, be subjected to" (pain, death, punishment, judgment, grief), from Anglo-French suffrir, Old French sofrir "bear, endure, resist; permit, tolerate, allow" (Modern French souffrir), from Vulgar Latin *sufferire, variant of Latin sufferre "to bear, undergo, endure, carry or put under," from sub "up, under" (see sub-) + ferre "to carry, bear," from PIE root *bher- (1) "to carry," also "to bear children."

https://www.etymonline.com/word/suffer

suffering (n.)
"patient enduring of pain, inconvenience, loss, etc.," mid-14c.; "undergoing of punishment, affliction, etc.," late 14c., verbal noun from suffer (v.). Meaning "a painful condition, pain felt" is from late 14c.

https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=suffering

Hence the suitability of translating dukkha as suffering.

Once again, you do not (and can not) establish any connection between 'dukkha' and 'suffering' by quoting definitions or origins of 'suffering' which do not mention 'dukkha'.


Kim

[Kim O'Hara]

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It's worth remembering that while the Dharma is eternal, from a historical perspective life certainly was pervaded by a lot more raw, in-your-face misery for most humans in ancient and medieval Asia than it is for the postmodern member of the developed world.

Personally i don't see the need to read a statement like "life is suffering" in a fundamentalist/literalist mode. When we read it more heuristically it can take on any number of nuances...I always read it in the sense of "life is pervaded by suffering." And danger lurks around every corner as a potential.

Kim is fighting with a figment. Buddha never said "life is suffering," he said "sarva dukkham," all is suffering. Then you have to discern what is the "all" to which he is referring. The all to which he is referring is the six sense gates.

If may be a figment, Malcolm, but it's pervasive in introductions to Buddhism and it's wrong - which is why I brought it up in a thread called "...common misconceptions of Buddhism."
And I agree, of course, that Buddha never said, "life is suffering." In fact, I pointed it out myself a few pages ago.

... But, with the best will in the world on the part of every person in the chain of transmission, it isn't exactly what the Buddha said. He said something along those lines in another language, and I think most of our problems with it arise from (mis)translation.
"Birth is stressful, aging is stressful..." is better than, "Life is suffering," but ...


Kim

Thanks for "All is suffering" as an alternative translation. The difficulty with it, in talking to beginners or non-Buddhists, is that the "all" needs so much explanation: its "all" is not "Life, the Universe and Everything" as most people would expect.


Kim

[Malcolm]

Once again, you do not (and can not) establish any connection between 'dukkha' and 'suffering' by quoting definitions or origins of 'suffering' which do not mention 'dukkha'.

duHkha 1 mfn. (according to grammarians properly written %{duS-kha} and said to be from %{dus} and %{kha} [cf. %{su-kha4}] ; but more probably a Pra1kritized form for %{duH-stha} q.v.) uneasy , uncomfortable , unpleasant , difficult R. Hariv. (compar. %{-tara} MBh. R.) ; n. (ifc. f. %{A}) uneasiness , pain , sorrow , trouble , difficulty S3Br. xiv , 7 , 2 , 15 Mn. MBh. &c. (personified as the son of Naraka and Vedana1 VP.) ; (%{am}) ind. with difficulty , scarcely , hardly (also %{at} and %{ena}) MBh. R. ; impers. it is difficult to or to be (inf.with an acc. or nom. R. vii , 6 , 38 Bhag. v , 6) ; %{duHkham} - %{as} , to be sad or uneasy Ratn. iv , 19/20 ; - %{kR} , to cause or feel pain Ya1jn5. ii , 218 MBh. xii , 5298.
2 duHkha 2 Nom. P. %{-khati} , to pain SaddhP.
3 duHkhabahula mfn. full of trouble and pain W.
4 duHkhabhAgin mfn. having pain as one's portion , unhappy Mn. iv , 157.
5 duHkhabhAj mfn. id. Ven2is. iv , 110/111 ,
6 duHkhabheSaja mf(%{I})n. healing woe (Kr2ishn2a) MBh. xii , 1624.
7 duHkhAbhijJa mfn. familiar with pain or sorrow MBh. i , 745.
8 duHkhabodha mfn. difficult to be understood Nya1yas. i , 1 , 37.
9 duHkhAcAra mfn. difficult to be dealt with , hard to manage MBh. iv , 274.
10 duHkhacArin mfn. going with pain , distressed R. iii , 23 , 14.
11 duHkhacchedya mfn. to be cut or overcome with difficulty Hit. iv , 24.
12 duHkhacchinna mfn. cut with difficulty , tough , hard ; pained , distressed W.
13 duHkhadagdha mfn. `" burnt by affliction "' , pained , distressed W.
14 duHkhadohyA f. difficult to be milked (cow) L.
15 duHkhaduHkha n. (instr.) with great difficulty Megh. 90 ; %{-tA} f. the uneasiness connected with pain SaddhP.
16 duHkhaduHkhin mfn. having sorrow upon sorrow BhP. xi , 11 , 19.
17 duHkhagata n. adversity , calamity MBh. xii , 5202.
18 duHkhagraha mfn. difficult to be conceived Ratn. iv , 13/14.
19 duHkhahan mfn. removing pain W.
20 duHkhajAta mfn. suffering pain , distressed Pa1n2. 4-1 , 52 Va1rtt. 5 Pat. ; vi , 2 , 170.
21 duHkhajIvin mfn. living in pain or distress Mn. xi , 9.
22 duHkhakara mf(%{I})n. causing pain to (gen.) , afflicting MBh. i , 6131.
23 duHkhAkara m. a multitude of sorrows Das3.
24 duHkhakArin mfn. id. Ratn. iv , 16/17.
25 duHkhAkR to cause pain , afflict , distress S3is3. ii , 11.
26 duHkhAkula mfn. filled with sorrow Katha1s.
27 duHkhalabdhikA f. `" gained with difficulty "' , N. of a princess Katha1s.
28 duHkhalavya mfn. hard to be cut or pierced (aim) Ba1lar. iv , 11.
29 duHkhAliDha mfn. consumed with grief MW.
30 duHkhaloka m. `" the world of pain "' (= %{saMsAra}) L. [483,3]
31 duHkhamaraNa mfn. having a painful death , Ma1latim. viii , 8/9.
32 duHkhamaya mf(%{i})n. consisting in suffering ; %{-tva} n. Sa1h.
33 duHkhamoha m. perplexity from pain or sorrow , despair Das3.
34 duHkhamokSa m. deliverance from pain MW.
35 duHkhAnarha mfn. deserving no pain MBh. iii , 998.
36 duHkhanivaha mfn. carrying pain with or after it , painful (thirst) BhP. ix , 19 , 16 ; m. a multitude of pains or evils ib. iii , 9 , 9.
37 duHkhAnta m. `" the end of pain or trouble "' , (with the Ma7he7s3varas) final emancipation Madhus.
38 duHkhAnvita mfn. accompanied with pain , filled with grief. distressed W.
39 duHkhaparItAGga mfn. whose limbs are surrounded or filled with pain MBh. ; %{-tA7tman} mfn. whose soul is affected with anguish ib.
40 duHkhapAtra n. a vessel or receptacle (= object) for sorrow Jain.
41 duHkhaprAya or mfn. full of trouble and pain W.
42 duHkhArta mfn. visited by pain , distressed MBh. i , 1860.
43 duHkhasAgara m. `" ocean of pain "' , great sorrow ; the world W.
44 duHkhasamAyukta mfn. accompanied , with pain , affected by anguish MW.
45 duHkhasaMcAra mfn. passing unhappily (time) R. iii , 22 , 10.
46 duHkhasaMsparza mfn. unpleasant to the touch MBh. v , 2046.
47 duHkhasaMsthiti mfn. in a wretched condition , poor , miserable W.
48 duHkhasaMvardhita mfn. reared with difficulty W.
49 duHkhasaMyoga m. = %{duHkha-yoga} W.
50 duHkhAsikA f. a condition of uneasiness or discomfort Subh. 156 Ka1d.

[Queequeg]

If we really want, we can appropriate the term "suffering" for dukkha and make it "Buddhist". That involves teaching people what Buddhists mean by suffering.

Words like karma and mantra have worked into the lexicon. Its not out of the realm of possibility for Buddhist discourse to eventually exert an influence on the English language as it has for Asian languages.

[Giovanni]

If we really want, we can appropriate the term "suffering" for dukkha and make it "Buddhist". That involves teaching people what Buddhists mean by suffering.

Words like karma and mantra have worked into the lexicon. Its not out of the realm of possibility for Buddhist discourse to eventually exert an influence on the English language as it has for Asian languages.

The only viable way forward I think. We cannot just go on throwing words in European languages and hoping something will stick.
We have to start to make the range of useful Sanskrit Chinese etc terms a second language. Not expect 2500 years of Buddhist culture to adapt to us..

[Malcolm]

If we really want, we can appropriate the term "suffering" for dukkha and make it "Buddhist". That involves teaching people what Buddhists mean by suffering.

Words like karma and mantra have worked into the lexicon. Its not out of the realm of possibility for Buddhist discourse to eventually exert an influence on the English language as it has for Asian languages.

I doubt dukha is going to make much headway.

[Queequeg]

If we really want, we can appropriate the term "suffering" for dukkha and make it "Buddhist". That involves teaching people what Buddhists mean by suffering.

Words like karma and mantra have worked into the lexicon. Its not out of the realm of possibility for Buddhist discourse to eventually exert an influence on the English language as it has for Asian languages.

I doubt dukha is going to make much headway.

It is not out of the realm of possibility that when something bad happens the response would be, with a shaking head, "dukha, dude."

[SilenceMonkey]

If we really want, we can appropriate the term "suffering" for dukkha and make it "Buddhist". That involves teaching people what Buddhists mean by suffering.

Words like karma and mantra have worked into the lexicon. Its not out of the realm of possibility for Buddhist discourse to eventually exert an influence on the English language as it has for Asian languages.

English words have more weight to our ears than foreign words.

On the other hand, if this becomes a part of our language, we'll need to be careful not to unconsciously associate things we associate with "suffering" onto our direct experience of dukkha. Everyone has images, sounds and words associate with concepts like "suffering" floating around in their minds... For me, somehow I have associations of someone being tortured. Maybe Jesus on the cross. That's very different than being bored, for instance. Or having to scratch an itch. Or even the thinking of a thought, which is also dukkha... What to do?

Regarding the translations Malcolm brought up, it doesn't look like the English word "suffering" covers these quite minor forms of dukkha. eg. "uneasy, uncomfortable , unpleasant , difficult" as translations of dukkha wouldn't fit with the word "suffering." The word suffering is intense!

On the other hand, it could be that we just don't recognize how intense our minor sufferings are. It's possible that from the perspective of one who has realized Shunyata, that even the smallest dukkha would be seen or experienced as torture or being set on fire. I remember Ajahn Brahm once talking about jhana. He said that we really have no idea the weight we carry until we enter jhana, at which point it sluffs off like layers of heavy clothes and we feel very light and free.

[Queequeg]

If we really want, we can appropriate the term "suffering" for dukkha and make it "Buddhist". That involves teaching people what Buddhists mean by suffering.

Words like karma and mantra have worked into the lexicon. Its not out of the realm of possibility for Buddhist discourse to eventually exert an influence on the English language as it has for Asian languages.

English words have more weight to our ears than foreign words.

On the other hand, if this becomes a part of our language, we'll need to be careful not to unconsciously associate things we associate with "suffering" onto our direct experience of dukkha. Everyone has images, sounds and words associate with concepts like "suffering" floating around in their minds... For me, somehow I have associations of someone being tortured. Maybe Jesus on the cross. That's very different than being bored, for instance. Or having to scratch an itch. Or even the thinking of a thought, which is also dukkha... What to do?

Kind of like that abuse of "karma" in the above clip - if it happens, there is no controlling how the terms get integrated into people's experiences. If Buddhism actually takes hold in the West and develops a momentum, there is not going to be the possibility of controlling how that momentum plays out. We're not going to have an Academie Bouddisme policing the use of terms. Its going to be worse. We're going to have a lot of charlatans and well meaning bozos putting themselves out there as teachers. We're going to have weird Buddhist-Christian syncretism. Worrying about how the term dukha is commonly understood is going to be the least of the problems. Out of that primordial soup we might get authentic Western Buddhism.

TBH, I'd be happy with that mess. That mess would mean that Buddha Dharma is popularly resonating with people and making a major impact. The yogis will emerge to point out the path through it - I trust the effect of Buddha Dharma planted in the minds of beings that way.

[Queequeg]

Following up on that thought -

If dukha does get integrated into English, part of that process will be to absorb the meanings of "suffering" "unsatisfactoriness" "stress" etc. ideally with a correct understanding, eventually, that will be the lens through which people living at that time will look back on the historical meaning of "suffering" "unsatisfactoriness" "stress" etc. This understanding will actually recast the past and memory in the light of a correct view of dukha. That is one of those sublime functions due to the elasticity of language.

We will see.

[Minobu]

Following up on that thought -

If dukha does get integrated into English, part of that process will be to absorb the meanings of "suffering" "unsatisfactoriness" "stress" etc. ideally with a correct understanding, eventually, that will be the lens through which people living at that time will look back on the historical meaning of "suffering" "unsatisfactoriness" "stress" etc. This understanding will actually recast the past and memory in the light of a correct view of dukha. That is one of those sublime functions due to the elasticity of language.

We will see.

All i have is a vague idea what Dukha means...

i get what it points to...
and i get

sublime functions due to the elasticity of language.

so for me it is like Samsara is tainted with dukha.
Even the Buddha had His life threatened ..all was not a bed of roses...there were those who completely rejected Him..

So even happiness is tainted with Dukha. ..it all comes down to desire for me...

it's the desire that creates craving , and attachment and so on...

then working out Karma and paying back debts of gratitude and debts of slander...

It's all dukha..

tainted...

it's not the pure land of a Buddha...or total extinction ...

So when people say it's not all bad...yeah it's not all bad ...look at a flower or a nice ripe hanging fruit ready for ingesting...beautiful..

but that for me what i was taught is due to the gods and other sort of creators ...they imbue samsara with what makes it more desirable...why ...cause the gods don't get it either... it's not helping actually...it causes more attachment via desire...


a god is the ultimate desire realm being...do they understand what extinction to samsara is all about or are they hooked on samsara...

more Dukha...

as i said it is a word i sort of get...

[Malcolm]

The word suffering is intense!

It really means "to endure what is not pleasant."

[SilenceMonkey]

Following up on that thought -

If dukha does get integrated into English, part of that process will be to absorb the meanings of "suffering" "unsatisfactoriness" "stress" etc. ideally with a correct understanding, eventually, that will be the lens through which people living at that time will look back on the historical meaning of "suffering" "unsatisfactoriness" "stress" etc. This understanding will actually recast the past and memory in the light of a correct view of dukha. That is one of those sublime functions due to the elasticity of language.

We will see.

Fascinating... translating just one word could rewrite the living memory of a language.

I think for a truly Dharmic understanding to integrate into western language, one thing we would need is to bring classical imagery of dukkha into definitions of “suffering” in the dictionary. Even if just “Buddha said it is like a squeaky wheel, or one’s sense organs constantly on fire.”

When I think of dukkha, my mind goes back to the imagery of dukkha that I first learned from a Gil Fronsdal Dharma talk. He said dukkha isn’t necessarily intense pain... but something like one’s forehead very slowly rubbing on a brick wall.

[LastLegend]

Take eyes for example...eyes don’t suffer. Eyes don’t make distinction. How can we say the gates are suffering?

[LastLegend]

But there are a lot can be said in “the seeing of eyes.”

[Minobu]

I recall suchness in the Gompa being a word that brought about a huge discussion.

All Rinpoche said to an English teacher who was present...
Well it was your people that translated and used it this way..

suchness...another fun word...

[LastLegend]

Please add luminous! Non-dual primordial wisdom is more agreeable.

[LastLegend]

Why is luminous leading to misunderstanding? Because it doesn’t point specifically to primordial wisdom. It could work better from some to contemplate: what arises in emptiness of mind? What luminous? Maybe examine is a better word.