Let's talk about common misconceptions of Buddhism

[SilenceMonkey]

There are no such thing as miracles. Just dependent origination, causes and conditions that are not understood.

So if it happens to you, I guess we can't call them "miracles" after all.

No, I am not anti-belief either. I just don’t find having beliefs, ideas which are not reasonably inferred, useful.

It all comes down to experiences you've had and how you choose to explain them.

This is all getting a bit abstract. My original point was that I have witnessed some things with some of my teachers that can't be explained by rational materialism. A couple of times, I've been helped out of dire circumstances like this, and it was clearly my teachers.

The only other explanation I can think of is that Buddhas and Bodhisattvas on higher planes were acting through the lamas to make change happen.

[Malcolm]

This is all getting a bit abstract.

Yes, because you are not being specific.

[SilenceMonkey]

This is all getting a bit abstract.

Yes, because you are not being specific.

Neither are you.

You say there are no miracles because all of what happens is cause and effect. But miracles also come about through cause and effect. Some merely choose to call it a "miracle" while you don't.

[SilenceMonkey]

Anyway... it's getting abstract and difficult to evaluate because Buddhists often don't talk about spiritual experiences they've had. It's against the Bodhisattva way.

That's often why it's hard to compare the "miracles" and siddhis in Buddhism with those in other traditions. Also why it's hard to say what is a "miracle" and what isn't.

[Malcolm]

This is all getting a bit abstract.

Yes, because you are not being specific.

Neither are you.

You say there are no miracles because all of what happens is cause and effect. But miracles also come about through cause and effect. Some merely choose to call it a "miracle" while you don't.

A miracle is normally considered a supernatural phenomenon that defies rational explanation.

I say, as does the Buddha, there are no phenomena, other than space and cessations, that are uncompounded, which arise in absence of cause and condition. I am not asserting we can explain all causes and conditions, I am saying that everything that happens is compounded and impermanent, and that there is no way around this fact.

[SilenceMonkey]

Yes, because you are not being specific.

Neither are you.

You say there are no miracles because all of what happens is cause and effect. But miracles also come about through cause and effect. Some merely choose to call it a "miracle" while you don't.

A miracle is normally considered a supernatural phenomenon that defies rational explanation.

I say, as does the Buddha, there are no phenomena, other than space and cessations, that are uncompounded, which arise in absence of cause and condition. I am not asserting we can explain all causes and conditions, I am saying that everything that happens is compounded and impermanent, and that there is no way around this fact.

If we can't explain something that happens, it defies rational explanation.

[Arnoud]

Yes, because you are not being specific.

Neither are you.

You say there are no miracles because all of what happens is cause and effect. But miracles also come about through cause and effect. Some merely choose to call it a "miracle" while you don't.

A miracle is normally considered a supernatural phenomenon that defies rational explanation.

I say, as does the Buddha, there are no phenomena, other than space and cessations, that are uncompounded, which arise in absence of cause and condition. I am not asserting we can explain all causes and conditions, I am saying that everything that happens is compounded and impermanent, and that there is no way around this fact.

So what someone calls a miracle, such as leaving a foot or hand print in rock, you call causes and conditions? Or are you saying that’s just superstition and made to look like a print?

[MiphamFan]

I really think that maybe you just haven't had experiences that would challenge this belief system of yours.

I prefer not to have beliefs, as much as possible.

Your statement here is no different than a Christian telling me I have not experienced miracles because I haven’t let Jesus into my heart.

There are no such thing as miracles. Just dependent origination, causes and conditions that are not understood.

I agree with this actually, I just think that there is evidence of causal mechanisms that are not ordinarily perceived materials by humans.

If you look at "psi" research there is interesting evidence of different effects that seem statistically significant.

I don't know what causes them and doubt the researchers would claim they understand much about it, but there are such effects.

Anyway, I think the Pyrrhonist sceptics are the most Madhyamaka-like of all the Hellenistic schools. They wouldn't claim to believe anything but to come up with arguments against whatever theory was proposed. Dogmatic materialism is also a theory.

[Malcolm]

Anyway... it's getting abstract and difficult to evaluate because Buddhists often don't talk about spiritual experiences they've had. It's against the Bodhisattva way.

One, that’s not true. Bodhisattvas are even permitted to lie about their experience and realization if it helps sentient beings come to the path.

Buddhists, especially Tibetan Buddhists, blather on about their experiences ad nauseum.

[Malcolm]

So what someone calls a miracle, such as leaving a foot or hand print in rock, you call causes and conditions? Or are you saying that’s just superstition and made to look like a print?

Mostly, such claims are rubbish, but if someone could do so, it would be along the lines of gaining control over the four elements through samadhi, like the arhat who self-immolated by having gained control over fire by meditating on fire kacina.

Such miraculous abilities are widely reported in traditional literature of all cultures, but never reproduced in front of witnesses.

I can report however that the weather was always terrible around ChNN. He was also remarkably successful in casinos too. However he once quipped to me when shown a picture of one of these miracles of a modern lama who stakes his reputation on such miracles, “get me some concrete and I can do that too.” So you see, my skepticism has some basis.

The word “sham” comes from “shaman.”

As for Ngakpa Rinpoche, his weather making abilities were inherited, and involved controlling nagas. He was quite good at this, which is why he was hired.

[Arnoud]

So what someone calls a miracle, such as leaving a foot or hand print in rock, you call causes and conditions? Or are you saying that’s just superstition and made to look like a print?

Mostly, such claims are rubbish, but if someone could do so, it would be along the lines of gaining control over the four elements through samadhi, like the arhat who self-immolated by having gained control over fire by meditating on fire kacina.

Such miraculous abilities are widely reported in traditional literature of all cultures, but never reproduced in front of witnesses.

I can report however that the weather was always terrible around ChNN. He was also remarkably successful in casinos too. However he once quipped to me when shown a picture of one of these miracles of a modern lama who stakes his reputation on such miracles, “get me some concrete and I can do that too.” So you see, my skepticism has some basis.

The word “sham” comes from “shaman.”

As for Ngakpa Rinpoche, his weather making abilities were inherited, and involved controlling nagas. He was quite good at this, which is why he was hired.

Thank you. That makes sense to me.

[SilenceMonkey]

So what someone calls a miracle, such as leaving a foot or hand print in rock, you call causes and conditions? Or are you saying that’s just superstition and made to look like a print?

Mostly, such claims are rubbish, but if someone could do so, it would be along the lines of gaining control over the four elements through samadhi, like the arhat who self-immolated by having gained control over fire by meditating on fire kacina.

Such miraculous abilities are widely reported in traditional literature of all cultures, but never reproduced in front of witnesses.

I can report however that the weather was always terrible around ChNN. He was also remarkably successful in casinos too. However he once quipped to me when shown a picture of one of these miracles of a modern lama who stakes his reputation on such miracles, “get me some concrete and I can do that too.” So you see, my skepticism has some basis.

The word “sham” comes from “shaman.”

As for Ngakpa Rinpoche, his weather making abilities were inherited, and involved controlling nagas. He was quite good at this, which is why he was hired.

Why do you say that gurus are unable to intervene in non-physical ways when their students are in trouble?

[Malcolm]

Why do you say that gurus are unable to intervene in non-physical ways when their students are in trouble?

I don’t know what you mean by “nonphysical ways.”

[SilenceMonkey]

Why do you say that gurus are unable to intervene in non-physical ways when their students are in trouble?

I don’t know what you mean by “nonphysical ways.”

From before:

Bodhisattvas are human beings (in our dimension). And all they can really do is give teachings. They do not supernaturally intervene. The idea that they can and do is, well, superstitious.

[Malcolm]

Why do you say that gurus are unable to intervene in non-physical ways when their students are in trouble?

I don’t know what you mean by “nonphysical ways.”

From before:

Bodhisattvas are human beings (in our dimension). And all they can really do is give teachings. They do not supernaturally intervene. The idea that they can and do is, well, superstitious.

I still don’t know what you mean. Like standing on a train track in front of a speeding train and praying to Avalokiteshvara to avert the train? Pretty sure that won’t work.

[SilenceMonkey]

I don’t know what you mean by “nonphysical ways.”

From before:

Bodhisattvas are human beings (in our dimension). And all they can really do is give teachings. They do not supernaturally intervene. The idea that they can and do is, well, superstitious.

I still don’t know what you mean. Like standing on a train track in front of a speeding train and praying to Avalokiteshvara to avert the train?

No, that's a bit ludicrous. But I think we all know ways that masters of Dharma have influence in our physical world. For example, the prayers of a great being have a lot of power and merit. I think a good student of someone like this might be guided away from a dangerous situation. They might have an intuition or hear a voice, or maybe not be aware of any of it, but will come out safe nevertheless.

I'm not talking about making the train disappear. But some lamas have abilities that go beyond just giving teachings.

And even teachings can be given in super-ordinary ways.

[Malcolm]

They might have an intuition or hear a voice, or maybe not be aware of any of it, but will come out safe nevertheless.

As I understand things, all of our happiness and suffering is the blessing of the guru.

I personally wouldn’t find a mental whisper to be the extraordinary power of my guru. But that’s just me. YMMV.

[SilenceMonkey]

They might have an intuition or hear a voice, or maybe not be aware of any of it, but will come out safe nevertheless.

As I understand things, all of our happiness and suffering is the blessing of the guru.

I personally wouldn’t find a mental whisper to be the extraordinary power of my guru. But that’s just me. YMMV.

Hearing voices is really just one among many. But I'm happy to discontinue this debate and let you enjoy the rest of your weekend.

[Malcolm]

They might have an intuition or hear a voice, or maybe not be aware of any of it, but will come out safe nevertheless.

As I understand things, all of our happiness and suffering is the blessing of the guru.

I personally wouldn’t find a mental whisper to be the extraordinary power of my guru. But that’s just me. YMMV.

Hearing voices is really just one among many. But I'm happy to discontinue this debate and let you enjoy the rest of your weekend.

We are not debating. You are being intentionally vague.

[Sādhaka]

It is not a copout for them, the copout is yours. You are using their words as an excuse to inaction. "Oh, I have not realized emptiness, so, I am just going have nice thoughts and prayers for the suffering in the world, but I am not going to actually do anything about it, because I am just a poor unawakened schmuck in samsara."

Who said anything about inaction?

I’m just saying that one can generate more merits via studying and Dharmic visualization methods (assuming that they are connected to methods from the Lineage Masters), than one could through political activism; let alone more ‘concrete’ methods, e.g. Yantra/Tummo, lower gate/door practices (done correctly and with proper preparation of course), Trekcho retreats, the Visions, etc. and the Five/Six Liberations for others.

Therefore what I’m implying above would be the epitome of action; whereas politics is not only less meritorious, but is likely more often than not an form of mental-laziness and distraction.

If anything the Jataka tales should inform you to have exactly the opposite approach. What lineage master is great than the Buddha?

Well here it seems that you are pitting the Buddha against the Lineage Masters that I quoted. And the words of the Buddha in the Jataka tales and general lower vehicles are—even though they are never wrong and are true in the right context—of course more outer-level/exoteric. This being said, there’s no way to mince the quotes from the Lineage Masters that I posted; it’s pretty straightforward:

Without attaining the Bhumis, one cannot really help sentient beings at all.

This isn’t to say that you don’t do your best in the moment. Like if you’re a practitioner, yet not yet on the Bhumis, and happen to have a vocation that is tied in with politics—but due to circumstances you can’t yet abandon that vocation—of course you do your best.

Where's your bodhisattva courage?

Well this is an wrong question for an number of reasons, mainly in the context of the reasons I’ve posted above; however since I myself have not been nearly as diligent as I could be, and have very little qualities to speak of, you’re question here to me personally isn’t wrong. It just isn’t right for the reasons that you were motivated to ask it. I.e. along the lines of “you’re not summoning Bodhisattva courage, because you’re advocating for focusing on practice instead of getting involved with politics”).

And the related statement that I was referring to in my earlier post, from Rongzompa quoted in The Precious Vase, is from his commentary on The Garland of Views.