If its just a story...

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Giovanni
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by Giovanni »

In some ways this whole argument reminds me of the way that Christian first started to see the Hebrew Bible as myths that define a group and then to see the New Testament in the same way. It seems that some Buddhists are much slower to demythologise than some Christians. I have come to be aware of that only since joining online Buddhism. I know many Buddhist students of traditional Vajrayana teachers. Not one would argue that Buddhist cosmology is literal history or geography. I have never known anyone take it as science. It is poetry, symbols, it points to truths deeper than history or geography.
To borrow from Zen it is a finger that points to the moon.
Giovanni
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by Giovanni »

I know many Buddhists. Some very experienced in Vajrayana. I know none that see Buddhist history or geography as factual. They see poetry, symbols, truths deeper than history or geography. We have perhaps a point in Buddhist history when literal interpretations will not stand. Which does not mean that they are mistaken or lies.
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tkp67
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by tkp67 »

LastLegend wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:41 pm The Supreme Dharma is in the stupa. :lol:
The Buddha spoke the truth as in Lotus. The teaching is Supreme.
The fusion of the teaching which expresses the buddha's complete supreme enlightenment and the mind occurs within the treasure tower which is one's own life. Treasure tower is translated as stupa in the Tibetan version.

This is why eliminating doubt is so critical and why the claim that all buddha are enlightened by this sutra is true. It does not mean the words but the expression of complete supreme enlightenment the common denominator of which is harboring zero doubt. This is how Shakyamuni was able to be such. He did not doubt there was an answer to ending suffering. He simply had not realized yet it was within him.

:anjali:

https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/lsoc/Content/11

Emergence of the Treasure Tower


https://read.84000.co/translation/toh113.html

The White Lotus of the Good Dharma
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

When I read the lotus sutra it took me days just to get through the guest list at the beginning. Did a couple of people sit there counting who was showing up (to include in the sutra) going,
“which Buddha is that? Is that “Radiant Flower Eyeball Buddha?”
“No, that’s “Ocean of Inconceivable Merit Buddha.”
“Really? He looks different. Thinner maybe?”
“You’re Thinking of Thundering Mountains Buddha. They both have the same color halo thing”.
“No, we had Thundering Mountain Buddha over to the house last weekend. By the way, he got a lotus upgrade, did you know?”
“A new seat? That’s great! I wonder what he plans to do with the old one?”
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
narhwal90
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by narhwal90 »

Immediately followed by a lightshow which might be expected at an Iron Maiden concert....
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LastLegend
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by LastLegend »

As destitute sons we make things hard for ourselves, we practice hard. So forefathers give us practice because we wouldn’t believe we are them. In The Sutra father hires his own sun to work for him. Eventually the father says you are my own son, and all the treasures are yours. :lol:
It’s eye blinking.
Malcolm
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by Malcolm »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:33 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:28 pm
SilenceMonkey wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:05 pm

Yes, I suppose you could say that about anything in relative reality. You could say the same thing about France. :shrug:
Conventional truth is based on common perceptions of ordinary people.
Perhaps there is a difference in what you mean by conventional truth and relative truth... I see them as synonyms. It's pretty basic Dharma that other planes of existence are also relative truth, they just can't be seen by people of ordinary faculties.
Conventional truth and relative truth overlap, but are not entirely synonymous. The other planes of existence you refer to are things like hell realms. For example, Vasubandhu negates the existence of hell realms as physical places. Why? Because then hell guardians accrue untold negative karma. So they are not sentient beings and the hells do not really exist as physical places, even conventionally.

The universe of Merus is the impure universe, not some exalted realm. It is the realm of the desire and form realm, i.e. samsara. But it is ridiculous to insist "Meru might be true in someone else's perception." Mt. Meru is really just the Tibetan plateau, etc. Four continents etc. are just Asia, Europe, Africa, etc. according to people who have no way of observing the earth from space.
Malcolm
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by Malcolm »

tkp67 wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:02 pm This is why eliminating doubt is so critical and why the claim that all buddha are enlightened by this sutra is true.
No, the claim is false, not supported by the text at all. It's up to you to prove the claim is true, you or Bodei.
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Javierfv1212
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by Javierfv1212 »

I think there is definitely a middle way between the idea that these texts are just made up stuff and the idea that they are literally true.

I definitely believe that Buddhist texts contain truths about reality. The most important elements in these Sutras, the deepest teachings, i.e. emptiness, Buddha nature, Buddhahood, the end of suffering, are what matters to me. Furthermore, the practical elements are also true, not in some factual/Scientific sense, but in a pragmatic sense (which means they help end suffering). All these things are true for me, they are stories all the same, but they are true stories.

However there is a bunch of stuff in all Buddhist texts that is questionable. This is not surprising, since they were composed, edited and copied over generations by human beings. Many of these people had deep insights into reality, but some also held wrong ideas about cosmology, about what's possible in this world, about women and about other things. This doesn't invalidate the real insights that the texts contain.

Some of these ideas should be dispensed with (the sexism for example and the meru cosmology), while others can be seen as good stories which should be understood metaphorically.

Just my 2 cents.
It is quite impossible to find the Buddha anywhere other than in one's own mind.
A person who is ignorant of this may seek externally,
but how is it possible to find oneself through seeking anywhere other than in oneself?
Someone who seeks their own nature externally is like a fool who, giving a performance in the middle of a crowd, forgets who he is and then seeks everywhere else to find himself.
— Padmasambhava

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LastLegend
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by LastLegend »

We just practice hard because that’s what we like. :lol: We don’t believe in nothing else but that.
It’s eye blinking.
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LastLegend
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by LastLegend »

tkp67 wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:02 pm
LastLegend wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:41 pm The Supreme Dharma is in the stupa. :lol:
The Buddha spoke the truth as in Lotus. The teaching is Supreme.
The fusion of the teaching which expresses the buddha's complete supreme enlightenment and the mind occurs within the treasure tower which is one's own life. Treasure tower is translated as stupa in the Tibetan version.

This is why eliminating doubt is so critical and why the claim that all buddha are enlightened by this sutra is true. It does not mean the words but the expression of complete supreme enlightenment the common denominator of which is harboring zero doubt. This is how Shakyamuni was able to be such. He did not doubt there was an answer to ending suffering. He simply had not realized yet it was within him.

:anjali:

https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/lsoc/Content/11

Emergence of the Treasure Tower


https://read.84000.co/translation/toh113.html

The White Lotus of the Good Dharma
There is an extremely significant meaning behind the treasure tower emerges out of the earth. Which we will leave it a mystery. We have been so destitute we don’t believe in nothing.
It’s eye blinking.
Malcolm
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by Malcolm »

Javierfv1212 wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:24 am I think there is definitely a middle way between the idea that these texts are just made up stuff and the idea that they are literally true.

I definitely believe that Buddhist texts contain truths about reality. The most important elements in these Sutras, the deepest teachings, i.e. emptiness, Buddha nature, Buddhahood, the end of suffering, are what matters to me. Furthermore, the practical elements are also true, not in some factual/Scientific sense, but in a pragmatic sense (which means they help end suffering). All these things are true for me, they are stories all the same, but they are true stories.

However there is a bunch of stuff in all Buddhist texts that is questionable. This is not surprising, since they were composed, edited and copied over generations by human beings. Many of these people had deep insights into reality, but some also held wrong ideas about cosmology, about what's possible in this world, about women and about other things. This doesn't invalidate the real insights that the texts contain.

Some of these ideas should be dispensed with (the sexism for example and the meru cosmology), while others can be seen as good stories which should be understood metaphorically.

Just my 2 cents.
:good:
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tkp67
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by tkp67 »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:56 pm
tkp67 wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:02 pm This is why eliminating doubt is so critical and why the claim that all buddha are enlightened by this sutra is true.
No, the claim is false, not supported by the text at all. It's up to you to prove the claim is true, you or Bodei.
It is absolutely supported by the text unless you have a citation where the buddha expresses doubt.

I would also remind you that lotus based traditions require more than textual comparisons but practice within the framework of the traditions which you admitted you do not do at all.

Continuing to point to a false metric is doing you no favor nor is it driving the dialog to fruition.
Malcolm
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by Malcolm »

tkp67 wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:00 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:56 pm
tkp67 wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:02 pm This is why eliminating doubt is so critical and why the claim that all buddha are enlightened by this sutra is true.
No, the claim is false, not supported by the text at all. It's up to you to prove the claim is true, you or Bodei.
It is absolutely supported by the text unless you have a citation where the buddha expresses doubt.
Your claim is that Buddha asserts in this text it is the text by means of which all buddhas attain buddhahood. Citation please. If you can’t produce it, your claim is false.
I would also remind you that lotus based traditions require more than textual comparisons but practice within the framework of the traditions which you admitted you do not do at all.
Irrelevant to your claim.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

They are all made up, but everything is made up. The difference is that Buddhist Sutras are made up stuff that lead to gnosis, whereas other made up stuff just leads in a circle to more made up stuff.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Minobu
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by Minobu »

tkp67 wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:00 am
It is absolutely supported by the text
i don't think you understand ...forget about text...thats the point..


it's ok tkp...it's like the upaya is the only upaya..because of upaya...

It's the only way you'll understand...

there is no ichinen sanzen...it's not even upaya inside upaya...it was never mentioned in the LS...only in some guys head...and it landed in japan and they thought it was like intellectually the Bomb...and it came from china...so it had to be good...like i read it on the internet...so it's true...
Ten dai uses nyo ze so ...the play on sunyata .....and the guy made up ichinen sanzen from that...

it's the same here when people use emptiness to explain anything..they add it like a condiment ... .it's like so bizarre...
SilenceMonkey
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:55 pm
SilenceMonkey wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:33 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:28 pm

Conventional truth is based on common perceptions of ordinary people.
Perhaps there is a difference in what you mean by conventional truth and relative truth... I see them as synonyms. It's pretty basic Dharma that other planes of existence are also relative truth, they just can't be seen by people of ordinary faculties.
Conventional truth and relative truth overlap, but are not entirely synonymous. The other planes of existence you refer to are things like hell realms. For example, Vasubandhu negates the existence of hell realms as physical places. Why? Because then hell guardians accrue untold negative karma. So they are not sentient beings and the hells do not really exist as physical places, even conventionally.

The universe of Merus is the impure universe, not some exalted realm. It is the realm of the desire and form realm, i.e. samsara. But it is ridiculous to insist "Meru might be true in someone else's perception." Mt. Meru is really just the Tibetan plateau, etc. Four continents etc. are just Asia, Europe, Africa, etc. according to people who have no way of observing the earth from space.
I think it's difficult to think about other realms in physical terms. They may not follow the same laws of time and space as we understand in our world. There are countless other worlds in this universe, maybe not all of them are even mentioned in the buddhist world-system scheme. And I don't see why some of those other planes of existence wouldn't overlap somehow in space with our own.

Honestly, I don't care so much about this Mt. Meru and four continents map. I'm not really insisting on anything, merely suggesting that there is a lot about the universe that we don't perceive or understand. It's possible that some of the buddhist cosmology is referring to invisible other realms, and Meru may be in one of those.
humble.student
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by humble.student »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:32 pm
I think that basis for Zangdok Palri is the Island of Madagascar for various reasons, yes. I also think the basis for the Shambhala myth is Afghanistan. But apart from being the pure visions of this one and that, I certainly do not think these places physically exist on our planet anymore, and for that matter, neither did my guru, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. YMMV
I think this was mentioned before, but what's the proper reference for the paper that claims Madagascar is Zangdok Palri ? It seems a bit far from India though. I'd be curious to see what the evidence is.
Giovanni
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by Giovanni »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:56 am
Javierfv1212 wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:24 am I think there is definitely a middle way between the idea that these texts are just made up stuff and the idea that they are literally true.

I definitely believe that Buddhist texts contain truths about reality. The most important elements in these Sutras, the deepest teachings, i.e. emptiness, Buddha nature, Buddhahood, the end of suffering, are what matters to me. Furthermore, the practical elements are also true, not in some factual/Scientific sense, but in a pragmatic sense (which means they help end suffering). All these things are true for me, they are stories all the same, but they are true stories.

However there is a bunch of stuff in all Buddhist texts that is questionable. This is not surprising, since they were composed, edited and copied over generations by human beings. Many of these people had deep insights into reality, but some also held wrong ideas about cosmology, about what's possible in this world, about women and about other things. This doesn't invalidate the real insights that the texts contain.

Some of these ideas should be dispensed with (the sexism for example and the meru cosmology), while others can be seen as good stories which should be understood metaphorically.

Just my 2 cents.
:good:
:good:
There is a mindset that needs to believe in literalness or it rejects. There is a mindset that needs to think that it knows a form of words which trumps all other views, that the belief system it holds explains all to everyone. We see it in Jehovahas Witnesses and we see it in certain non mainstream schools of Buddhism. Buddhadharma is however different from all that.
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Astus
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by Astus »

One of the wonderful qualities of the Dharma is that it is readily visible (sāṃdṛṣṭiko/sandiṭṭhiko), just as one can discern the presence or absence of greed in oneself (SN 35.70, AN 6.47-48), and how from greed come evil actions (AN 3.53-54). Seeing it now is better than looking for pleasant results in the future, as it's been explained to both a deva (SN 1.20) and a mara (SN 4.21), and it's even better than ruling the four continents (SN 55.1). The Dharma can be readily perceived on various levels through absorption (AN 9.46), and it is best taught with the understanding that the Dharma itself is excellent and out of compassion (SN 16.3).
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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