If its just a story...

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
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LastLegend
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by LastLegend »

The heaven eye is hard to open, I heard. Those who have them open they will see see which practitioners have many Heavenly Dharma protectors follow them.
It’s eye blinking.
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LastLegend
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by LastLegend »

I think Lotus Sutra is profound. I also think one’s aspiration and determination are more profound. The teachings from Different traditions might be profound but lacking aspiration and determination will not help. It means we lack of courage and we have fear. That’s digressing.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Minobu wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:59 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:44 pm
Queequeg wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 3:53 pm If Mahayana sutras are just stories and are not the historical records of the Buddha's words, where does that leave us?
It doesn’t make any difference for two very simple reasons:

1. If there was a fabricated story about the first caveman to make fire by rubbing sticks together, that would not diminish the fact that if you also rub two sticks together, you can produce fire. Likewise, if you practice what the Buddha “supposedly” said, you will get the same results.

2. You yourself are a totally made up fabrication of your own mind, as am I. So the issue comes down to, again, that we make the mistake of establishing ourselves as having some intrinsic reality that we measure other things by. In other words, the Buddha is said to have flown up to the 33 Heaven. Can you or I do that? No. Therefore we question that because “we are real, and we can’t do that”. But on what basis is this ‘reality’ we supposedly possess based?

There is nothing in Buddhist teachings that you need to accept on blind faith. Many people do opt for blind faith, but that’s their thing. The Buddha taught to test out the teachings as a buyer of gold tests gold, burning it, pounding it, cutting it. One may argue that with concepts such as rebirth and pure lands testing is not possible. Others would say that depends on how you define your experience.
all that is fine but once you say as you just did .....
The Buddha taught to test out the teachings
don't you see a problem in saying that in the context you are trying to form.

if there was no buddha that said this stuff...??
Okay then
“…the alleged Buddha “supposedly” taught to test out the teachings…” there no conundrum here. It doesn’t make any difference.

Keep in mind, Sanskrit Mahāyāna, Pali Theravada, whatever… all those words supposedly spoken by the Buddha weren’t even written written down until more than a century after he spoke them, some 5,000 south of where he supposedly spoke them, and in languages he never even used.

In the mean time, a lot of people can make stuff up, especially when being bankrolled by kings such as Ashoka. In the end, however, it doesn’t matter.
Last edited by PadmaVonSamba on Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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SilenceMonkey
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:02 pm
SilenceMonkey wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:54 pm Well, obviously we can't see other realms and their inhabitants. But some people can. :shrug: It's just a matter of how clouded our perception is, and whether or not we've opened our divine eye.

Sometimes you'll meet people who can see these things. It's rare, though... It can be unlocked through deep states of samadhi. Some people are even born with it. I've met at least two people like this, who can see the energetic reality as well as spirits.
That does not render Meru Cosmology anything more than a medieval map. Here is another one, by Agrippa (63 BCE--12 BCE):

Image

It distinctly lacks Meru. the four main and eight subcontinents, etc.
When I wrote this, I was thinking about the existence of other realms. In my view, it could also be that the way the realms are said to be stacked on top of each other is a simplistic analogy that is easier for us to comprehend than how it actually exists (as a kind of spiritual geography).

But if we're talking about the four continents, it may be a reference to other planes of existence overlaying our own world. Certain sacred places on Earth are said to be secretly tantric power places, pure realms, etc... And great practitioners are able to see it and engage with this higher reality. HH Kyabgon Chetsang Rinpoche talks about these things in his autobiography. I believe he also recognized a mountain in the US on Lakota Sioux territory as a sacred mountain of a tantric deity, and he talks about this process in fascinating detail.
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by SilenceMonkey »

LastLegend wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:04 pm The heaven eye is hard to open, I heard. Those who have them open they will see see which practitioners have many Heavenly Dharma protectors follow them.
Maybe it depends on our karma. This one guy in Taiwan I met says that he sees hundreds of spiritual beings flocked to temples when pujas are being conducted. He says he can see them hovering outside the building and also inside where the practice is taking place. He is a vajrayana practitioner, who also practices Theravada shamatha and vipassana techniques, which he says amplify his vajrayana practice. A number of people think he was a lama in a previous life.
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tkp67
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by tkp67 »

The suffering of samsara may be a phantom but phantoms themselves are real enough to require liberation. This would lead to a fine line between discriminating and deprecation in regards to the teachings themselves.

Until realized liberation is just a story unless one believes that such a thing is true. If the value of liberation is true then the value of the story that leads to it is equally valuable.
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Minobu
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by Minobu »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:11 pm
Minobu wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:59 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:44 pm
It doesn’t make any difference for two very simple reasons:

1. If there was a fabricated story about the first caveman to make fire by rubbing sticks together, that would not diminish the fact that if you also rub two sticks together, you can produce fire. Likewise, if you practice what the Buddha “supposedly” said, you will get the same results.

2. You yourself are a totally made up fabrication of your own mind, as am I. So the issue comes down to, again, that we make the mistake of establishing ourselves as having some intrinsic reality that we measure other things by. In other words, the Buddha is said to have flown up to the 33 Heaven. Can you or I do that? No. Therefore we question that because “we are real, and we can’t do that”. But on what basis is this ‘reality’ we supposedly possess based?

There is nothing in Buddhist teachings that you need to accept on blind faith. Many people do opt for blind faith, but that’s their thing. The Buddha taught to test out the teachings as a buyer of gold tests gold, burning it, pounding it, cutting it. One may argue that with concepts such as rebirth and pure lands testing is not possible. Others would say that depends on how you define your experience.
all that is fine but once you say as you just did .....
The Buddha taught to test out the teachings
don't you see a problem in saying that in the context you are trying to form.

if there was no buddha that said this stuff...??
Okay then
“…the alleged Buddha “supposedly” taught to test out the teachings…” there no conundrum here. It doesn’t make any difference.

Keep in mind, Sanskrit Mahāyāna, Pali Theravada, whatever… all those words supposedly spoken by the Buddha weren’t even written written down until more than a century after he spoke them, some 5,000 south of where he supposedly spoke them, and in languages he never even used.

In the mean time, a lot of people can make stuff up, especially when being bankrolled by kings such as Ashoka. In the end, however, it doesn’t matter.
your able to justify all this quite well...

BUT!!!! i could never say it doesn't matter...

unless you go the route of Nichiren Daishonin..

trash the whole mess..almost get killed for it...but leave a practice where an actual Entity gets to commune with you..

the Entity Being what ever one might think is produced from ..((omits Buddhism))).i dunnoo..something not written ever...


he had to use something ...all the temples and court people flocking to these various schools of Buddhism....he could not just say...thats all fables and stories that are made up to show you what i am going to show you....actually in a way maybe /he did..

just pointed to and hoped for...lol...
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Minobu
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by Minobu »

tkp67 wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:27 pm The suffering of samsara may be a phantom
what are you on about?
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LastLegend
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by LastLegend »

The Jewel Box of our Buddha forefathers left us make us rich :lol:. We are called destitute sons because we don’t we believe we are our forefathers. Explicitly stated in Lotus Sutra.
It’s eye blinking.
SilenceMonkey
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Yes... I mean, in what sense are things just a story?

In the sense that there are some things that exist and we can't see, so we might not believe it.
In the sense that sutras are fables, not to be taken literally.
In the sense that tradition is merely a myth passed down orally, akin to native american legend told around a fire.
In the sense that our minds create all sort of stories about who we are, etc...
In the sense that all of relative truth is just a story.
In the sense that the interpretive teachings are just stories, whereas the definitive teachings instruct on the ultimate truth.

It's also interesting to note that maybe this concept of "story" is a modern projection as a way to understand similar concepts such as maya (illusion), avidya (ignorance), samvrti (relative reality), satya (truthfulness).
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by Malcolm »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:13 pm
But if we're talking about the four continents, it may be a reference to other planes of existence overlaying our own world.
Then how do you explain Ptolemy referring to the Kurus to the north of India?

Certain sacred places on Earth are said to be secretly tantric power places, pure realms, etc...
Things like geography and so on need to conform to the perceptions of ordinary people.
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:56 pm
SilenceMonkey wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:13 pm
But if we're talking about the four continents, it may be a reference to other planes of existence overlaying our own world.
Then how do you explain Ptolemy referring to the Kurus to the north of India?
:shrug:
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:56 pm
SilenceMonkey wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:13 pm Certain sacred places on Earth are said to be secretly tantric power places, pure realms, etc...
Things like geography and so on need to conform to the perceptions of ordinary people.
Maybe... maybe not... :shrug:
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by Malcolm »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:18 pm
LastLegend wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:04 pm The heaven eye is hard to open, I heard. Those who have them open they will see see which practitioners have many Heavenly Dharma protectors follow them.
Maybe it depends on our karma. This one guy in Taiwan I met says that he sees hundreds of spiritual beings flocked to temples when pujas are being conducted. He says he can see them hovering outside the building and also inside where the practice is taking place. He is a vajrayana practitioner, who also practices Theravada shamatha and vipassana techniques, which he says amplify his vajrayana practice. A number of people think he was a lama in a previous life.
Lots of people say lots of things. As Poe said, "Believe nothing you hear, and only one half that you see."
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by Malcolm »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:59 pm

Maybe... maybe not... :shrug:
Well, if you imagine Meru is "out there" somewhere, you are just engaging in conceptual proliferation and fantasies. HH Dalai Lama, Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, etc., are all very content to dispense with Meru Cosmology.
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:01 pm
SilenceMonkey wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:59 pm

Maybe... maybe not... :shrug:
Well, if you imagine Meru is "out there" somewhere, you are just engaging in conceptual proliferation and fantasies.
Yes, I suppose you could say that about anything in relative reality. You could say the same thing about France. :shrug:

When you make arguments like this, I start to question... You are obviously smart enough to see the fallacy here, yet you still present it. Makes me think that maybe you just have a strong anti-something or other agenda.

Besides, we're not just talking about Meru.
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by GrapeLover »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:01 pm
SilenceMonkey wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:59 pm

Maybe... maybe not... :shrug:
Well, if you imagine Meru is "out there" somewhere, you are just engaging in conceptual proliferation and fantasies. HH Dalai Lama, Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, etc., are all very content to dispense with Meru Cosmology.
Have mercy on us. In more recent times Kongtrul also describes various world systems and the relation to Mt Meru cosmology—some adhering to it, some being different etc. I’m not saying you should believe it, but holding room for the idea that past great masters and traditional Buddhist cosmology might have some validity on some level shouldn’t be seen as deleterious conceptual proliferation, I think.

Mainly just saying I give the teachings the benefit of the doubt until I get the divine eye and can see for meself.
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by Malcolm »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:05 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:01 pm
SilenceMonkey wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:59 pm

Maybe... maybe not... :shrug:
Well, if you imagine Meru is "out there" somewhere, you are just engaging in conceptual proliferation and fantasies.
Yes, I suppose you could say that about anything in relative reality. You could say the same thing about France. :shrug:
Conventional truth is based on common perceptions of ordinary people.
When you make arguments like this, I start to question... You are obviously smart enough to see the fallacy here, yet you still present it. Makes me think that maybe you just have a strong anti-something or other agenda.
For example, to a human, the perception of a liquid substance of the beings of the other six realms is false and deluded. Only the perception of water is correct and valid in the human realm.

Likewise, in this day and age, the notion that the world is flat, the sky is blue because the southern face of Meru is made of sapphire, and Jambudvipa is surrounded by iron mountains to keep the stench of the proximate hells away is simply mythological and need not be taken as anything more than a pre-modern Buddhist view of the world, not even shared by Indian non-buddhists of the same era.
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:28 pm
SilenceMonkey wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:05 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:01 pm

Well, if you imagine Meru is "out there" somewhere, you are just engaging in conceptual proliferation and fantasies.
Yes, I suppose you could say that about anything in relative reality. You could say the same thing about France. :shrug:
Conventional truth is based on common perceptions of ordinary people.
Perhaps there is a difference in what you mean by conventional truth and relative truth... I see them as synonyms. It's pretty basic Dharma that other planes of existence are also relative truth, they just can't be seen by people of ordinary faculties.
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:01 pm
SilenceMonkey wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:59 pm

Maybe... maybe not... :shrug:
Well, if you imagine Meru is "out there" somewhere, you are just engaging in conceptual proliferation and fantasies. HH Dalai Lama, Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, etc., are all very content to dispense with Meru Cosmology.

Sure, dispensing with it as an actual physical cosmology is not so hard.
We can't really dispense with it if certain teachings directly involve it though, or alternatively we have to view it as something other than "out there".
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LastLegend
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by LastLegend »

The Supreme Dharma is in the stupa. :lol:
The Buddha spoke the truth as in Lotus. The teaching is Supreme.
It’s eye blinking.
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