If its just a story...

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Malcolm
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by Malcolm »

Giovanni wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:32 pm
I wasn’t clear. My meaning is that westerners are not going to flock to hear such stories presented as history or cosmology. Presented as non linear, non literal truths to live by and as upaya is another thing.
One of the reasons why Trungpa's books were so popular, Myth of Freedom, Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism, etc., is that he had a knack for presenting Buddhist teachings in a way that Westerners in the 70's could easily absorb. He was quite willing to forgo literalism in favor of meaning. So was Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, for that matter.
Giovanni
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by Giovanni »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:06 pm
Giovanni wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:32 pm
I wasn’t clear. My meaning is that westerners are not going to flock to hear such stories presented as history or cosmology. Presented as non linear, non literal truths to live by and as upaya is another thing.
One of the reasons why Trungpa's books were so popular, Myth of Freedom, Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism, etc., is that he had a knack for presenting Buddhist teachings in a way that Westerners in the 70's could easily absorb. He was quite willing to forgo literalism in favor of meaning. So was Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, for that matter.
It was he I had in mind..I never know whether to quite him because it can take discussion down paths not intended.. :smile:
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Javierfv1212
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by Javierfv1212 »

My meaning is that westerners are not going to flock to hear such stories presented as history or cosmology. Presented as non linear, non literal truths to live by and as upaya is another thing.
I cannot be the only person to attend teachings from authentic teachers who have real empowerments to impart but have to wait patiently while they give it context in terms of ancient myth involving fantasy narratives.
I sometimes look at the young faces around me and think ‘what must they be making of this’.
Some of them come back. Many do not.
This all depends on the skill of the teacher in adapting the teaching to their audience. Clearly, the teaching cannot be explained in the same way as it was done in the past to people who grew up in the west and were educated here.
It is quite impossible to find the Buddha anywhere other than in one's own mind.
A person who is ignorant of this may seek externally,
but how is it possible to find oneself through seeking anywhere other than in oneself?
Someone who seeks their own nature externally is like a fool who, giving a performance in the middle of a crowd, forgets who he is and then seeks everywhere else to find himself.
— Padmasambhava

Visit my site: https://sites.google.com/view/abhayajana/
Giovanni
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by Giovanni »

Javierfv1212 wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:29 pm
My meaning is that westerners are not going to flock to hear such stories presented as history or cosmology. Presented as non linear, non literal truths to live by and as upaya is another thing.
I cannot be the only person to attend teachings from authentic teachers who have real empowerments to impart but have to wait patiently while they give it context in terms of ancient myth involving fantasy narratives.
I sometimes look at the young faces around me and think ‘what must they be making of this’.
Some of them come back. Many do not.
This all depends on the skill of the teacher in adapting the teaching to their audience. Clearly, the teaching cannot be explained in the same way as it was done in the past to people who grew up in the west and were educated here.
Yes and the younger teachers know this..I think we can’t expect this from the older monastics. They bring other qualities.
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Javierfv1212
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by Javierfv1212 »

IMO, here in the west you can't just launch into the myths and stories without laying down some groundwork for how to understand them. Most people will just reject them as religious fairytales otherwise. I think Gene Reeve's approach in the book I quoted before is pretty effective, you need to first explain how to understand and experience the myths, then go into the stories and tales and as you tell them, apply them to people's lives and make them relevant and meaningful.

Another person is really good at this stuff is Jordan Peterson. I know, I KNOW! That guy.... I'm not a fan of him myself, but he is immensely popular for reason. He knows how to tell a good yarn and how to use them to inspire people. Unfortunately, he also spews a lot of b.s.
It is quite impossible to find the Buddha anywhere other than in one's own mind.
A person who is ignorant of this may seek externally,
but how is it possible to find oneself through seeking anywhere other than in oneself?
Someone who seeks their own nature externally is like a fool who, giving a performance in the middle of a crowd, forgets who he is and then seeks everywhere else to find himself.
— Padmasambhava

Visit my site: https://sites.google.com/view/abhayajana/
Malcolm
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by Malcolm »

Javierfv1212 wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:01 pm IMO, here in the west you can't just launch into the myths and stories without laying down some groundwork for how to understand them. Most people will just reject them as religious fairytales otherwise. I think Gene Reeve's approach in the book I quoted before is pretty effective, you need to first explain how to understand and experience the myths, then go into the stories and tales and as you tell them, apply them to people's lives and make them relevant and meaningful.
You will note that the treatise tradition basically draws the core principles from various sutras, and largely leaves the mythic content behind. This is one strength of the Nalanda tradition, and a good reason not to focus attention on the raw material presented in the sutras.
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Javierfv1212
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by Javierfv1212 »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:21 pm
Javierfv1212 wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:01 pm IMO, here in the west you can't just launch into the myths and stories without laying down some groundwork for how to understand them. Most people will just reject them as religious fairytales otherwise. I think Gene Reeve's approach in the book I quoted before is pretty effective, you need to first explain how to understand and experience the myths, then go into the stories and tales and as you tell them, apply them to people's lives and make them relevant and meaningful.
You will note that the treatise tradition basically draws the core principles from various sutras, and largely leaves the mythic content behind. This is one strength of the Nalanda tradition, and a good reason not to focus attention on the raw material presented in the sutras.
Perhaps, but the down side of this is that myths and stories are open to many interpretations (and in here lies much of their power as upayas), and when you focus on one way to interpret them, you may lose the other possibilities and the vibrancy of the myth. Plus, stories are one of the oldest and most powerful means of communication.

So we need a little bit of both I think.
It is quite impossible to find the Buddha anywhere other than in one's own mind.
A person who is ignorant of this may seek externally,
but how is it possible to find oneself through seeking anywhere other than in oneself?
Someone who seeks their own nature externally is like a fool who, giving a performance in the middle of a crowd, forgets who he is and then seeks everywhere else to find himself.
— Padmasambhava

Visit my site: https://sites.google.com/view/abhayajana/
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