Dharmakaya Body View

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Minobu
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Dharmakaya Body View

Post by Minobu »

What exactly is the Dharmakaya Body.

Is it actually a Body , seeing the Nirmanakaya is a Body that never leaves the Pure Land of A Buddha .

the Sambhogakaya Body, is flesh. Although i would suspect the physiology of it is vastly different from the average human.
In terms of the chakras and development there in.

So some say it just about realization.

My own interpretation is with this Body a Buddha can communicate with another sentient , although that communication is a whole other story.

Lord Ganesha is said to use His Power to make way for Dharma practice and take away obstacles.

Is this a power of the dharmakaya Body.

Is this Body spread out through all of Samsara and all the pure lands which make IT omniscient .. where by a Buddha knows all things and everything that is happening.

These things make me wonder as someone said it is about realization.


so in a locked thread this is what went on between Malcolm and i.
Minobu wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 12:36 pm

So at first there was the Dharmakaya from which sentients became enlightened to and then attained Buddhahood.
then
Malcolm » Mon May 17, 2021 12:47 pm

First there is reality, suchness, dharmatā, śunyatā, etc. The realization of that reality is called "dharmakāya." When dharmakāya is realized, then the rūpakāyas can manifest. Dharmakāya isn't a thing, it is a realization.
then
minobu: I'm talking about the Dharmakaya Body that permeates all of Samsara.
then it gets tricky for instead of answering Malcolm gives a lecture on sunyata...which indeed is the NATURE of the Dharmakaya body but does not address my query which is why i am here now scratching me noggin..

his immediate reply..

malcolm : Right, that refers to śunyatā, emptiness. Since everything is empty, we can say that the reality buddhas realize pervades everything.


if we take this quote by malcolm it seems to be explaining the workings of a view.

I was taught the sunyata view mixed with compassion is enlightenment..referring it as the dharmakaya body seems to confuse what exactly the Dharmakaya body actually is...

and that conversation ended there...


Is Malcolm saying the realization of sunyata enables one to become omnipresent.

I only bring it up not wishing it to derail the question in OP , but it isn't helpful if malcolm starts in on that whole nature of everything being Sunyata and linking it to what the Body is ...or maybe it is....i dunno...i don't get how it is a realization and being justified by the view of sunyata...to become omnipresent.


again i realize everything the whole Triple Body of the Buddha has the nature of emptiness and Malcolm could apply this to any one of the Three Bodies.B

But it does not settle my question as to what is the purpose of the Dharmakaya body besides being a realization..


Is Malcolm saying the realization of sunyata enables one to become omnipresent.
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Re: Dharmakaya Body View

Post by Minobu »

I would like to add ..that like most here i value Malcom and have learned a lot from him ...

and i do know he shows great patience with me at times...

that being said some of his views and interpretations i don't share.

maybe one day i will...it's a process and i do not turn the learning valve OFF ever and enjoy being wrong.
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Re: Dharmakaya Body View

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Dharmakaya has no appearances.
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Re: Dharmakaya Body View

Post by Minobu »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:38 pm Dharmakaya has no appearances.
yeah i get that totally...

we don't see it...but it permeates everything due to the Buddha's will...yes / no /

it's not just realization...yes / no ?

it is a body..so what are it's capabilities?
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Re: Dharmakaya Body View

Post by Malcolm »

Minobu wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:48 pm
SilenceMonkey wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:38 pm Dharmakaya has no appearances.
yeah i get that totally...

we don't see it...but it permeates everything due to the Buddha's will...yes / no /

it's not just realization...yes / no ?

it is a body..so what are it's capabilities?
Ten powers, four fearlessnesses, etc.
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Re: Dharmakaya Body View

Post by SilenceMonkey »

I think you have nirmanakaya and sambhogakaya mixed up. Nirmanakaya is the corporeal form. Sambhogakaya is the bliss body from which pure lands emanate. When people have visions of buddhas and bodhisattvas, it is the sambhogakaya that appears to them.
Minobu wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:36 pm My own interpretation is with this Body a Buddha can communicate with another sentient , although that communication is a whole other story.
This communication is called the Buddha's Activities. I think you may be right that somehow it comes from the Dharmakaya.

I don't think the dharmakaya is a body in our normal understanding of what bodies are. There's nothing really there (it's shunyata), nothing at all. But somehow the buddhas all emanate from the same Dharmakaya. The dharmakaya of all buddhas is same.
Last edited by SilenceMonkey on Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dharmakaya Body View

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Usually we say "realization of the dharmakaya." Which is to say seeing the nature of reality (ie. shunyata) directly.

That's all I got! This stuff is profound...
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Re: Dharmakaya Body View

Post by Caoimhghín »

The English have a Latin loanword, "corpus," which translates to "body." The Latin (actually French likely) is where we get words like "corpse."

Corpus, in English usage, does not generally actually mean "physical body of the person." The corpus of Beethoven is not his rotting dead body, but the "body of work," the "collection of art products" he created. Similarly, when the Buddha's sūtras talk about "touching nirvāṇa with the body," they don't mean that nirvāṇa is a material texture sensed by kāyavijñāna. The "kāya" here is an "assemblage" or "heaped thing." It is a "collection."

It is similar to when you read "entity" in translation by Burton Watson. He is translating 體, "body, essence," which would have been read as 体 by Venerable Nichiren's time unless I'm quite mistaken. "Entity" has the downside of seeming like it means a particular being, an entity who is a "person," rather than its proper meaning of "body/essence," but to equate 體 solely with a physical and/or personal body, like to equate "kāya" solely with a physical and/or personal body, is actually going against how the languages use those words. The "body" sense of 體 is a little antiquated. Burton Watson favours a translation that I consider eccentric, but only because he is using the English word "entity" in an antiquated recherché manner. He does not mean "an entity," in the way that you or I could be considered "an entity." If we consider Watson's usage of "entity" to refer to entities like you or me, that sense of "entity" is identical to "sentient beings" and is not what the word 體 actually means. 體 does get picked up in Japanese as a Chinese loanword, but its dominant sense in Chinese is "essence," not "(physical) body." The dominant sense of "kāya" in "dharmakāya" is similarly not "physical body" or even "personal body."
Last edited by Caoimhghín on Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Re: Dharmakaya Body View

Post by LastLegend »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:06 pm Usually we say "realization of the dharmakaya." Which is to say seeing the nature of reality (ie. shunyata) directly.

That's all I got! This stuff is profound...
Okay. Every thought that is clear is Dharmakaya. Every thought is deluded is karma.
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Re: Dharmakaya Body View

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LastLegend wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:14 pm
SilenceMonkey wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:06 pm Usually we say "realization of the dharmakaya." Which is to say seeing the nature of reality (ie. shunyata) directly.

That's all I got! This stuff is profound...
Okay. Every thought that is clear is Dharmakaya. Every thought is deluded is karma.
My understanding here is that Karmic movement is Dharmakaya also, any view of things being pure or impure in relation to it, or somehow excluded in are just skillful means.

In other words, “impure” karmic thoughts are ultimately Dharmakaya, their ultimate nature cannot somehow be separate. Of course we may need to view them otherwise for practical reasons, depending on our practice.
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Re: Dharmakaya Body View

Post by Budai »

Does one merge into the Dharmakaya, become it, or realize it within themselves, or any combination of these or other?
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Re: Dharmakaya Body View

Post by Minobu »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:01 pm
I don't think the dharmakaya is a body in our normal understanding of what bodies are. There's nothing really there (it's shunyata), nothing at all.
This is where you might be confusing an experience within Mahamudra and Dzogchen...what i mean is the experience itself...is misinterpreted by people who have not experienced it and go on to try and describe it...and worst ..teach it...

i say this cause the whole nothingness thing usually comes from Dzogchen people here...

outside this online city it comes from like the likes of Jim Carrey...



Sunyata to most people means nothingness...but it is a view where both Existence and nonexistence are viewed simultaneously...

to come to the conclusion that it is nothingness...anything for that matter is not Sunyata it is Nihilism..
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Re: Dharmakaya Body View

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Könchok Chödrak wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:32 pm Does one merge into the Dharmakaya, become it, or realize it within themselves, or any combination of these or other?
My understanding is that we are already "merged" into it, the only thing is realizing, there is no action to make happen what is already the case, only dissolving the ignorance that keeps us from doing so, which is what makes all the various methods a necessity. Ultimately even that ignorance has the nature of Dharmakaya. In that sense the whole path is basically a big show.
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Re: Dharmakaya Body View

Post by LastLegend »

Not agreeing or disagree. Not Sure.

For practical purpose:

1) Taking refuge in Triple Gems according to Platform Sutra. A. Refuge in Buddha: awakening of Dharmakaya B. Refuge in Dharma which is Truth as free from delusion. Refuge in Sangha as Purity of Dharmakaya despite delusion and suffering that one experiences.

2) The view is (for practical purpose) karmic thoughts are Dharmakaya. However, view can come with attachment as how mind tries to grasp. View can be different from actuality: mind sees just ‘sees’ thoughts clearly (without being deluded). Also we should know when mind grasps whether thoughts are so subtle we they seem not present...it is at this level there is such attachment. This subtle self is hard to transcend because it’s almost not recognizeable. The act of mind to grasp can be very subtle. I am betting one million dollar on this: this is where the problem lies...Sutra says there is nothing to be done meaning we should not act or not act. We have to be careful with this kind of statement not this or that.
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Re: Dharmakaya Body View

Post by Budai »

I see. What about the parts of people that commit wicked acts, is only part of them merged into the Dharmakaya, or are they just not realizing who they truly are, a good person doing bad deeds? How much of this is Expedient Means to teach people how to come directly to Buddhahood and Emptiness as the only basis for it?
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Re: Dharmakaya Body View

Post by Minobu »

Caoimhghín wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:09 pm The English have a Latin loanword, "corpus," which translates to "body." The Latin (actually French likely) is where we get words like "corpse."

Corpus, in English usage, does not generally actually mean "physical body of the person." The corpus of Beethoven is not his rotting dead body, but the "body of work," the "collection of art products" he created. Similarly, when the Buddha's sūtras talk about "touching nirvāṇa with the body," they don't mean that nirvāṇa is a material texture sensed by kāyavijñāna. The "kāya" here is an "assemblage" or "heaped thing." It is a "collection."

It is similar to when you read "entity" in translation by Burton Watson. He is translating 體, "body, essence," which would have been read as 体 by Venerable Nichiren's time unless I'm quite mistaken. "Entity" has the downside of seeming like it means a particular being, an entity who is a "person," rather than its proper meaning of "body/essence," but to equate 體 solely with a physical and/or personal body, like to equate "kāya" solely with a physical and/or personal body, is actually going against how the languages use those words. The "body" sense of 體 is a little antiquated. Burton Watson favours a translation that I consider eccentric, but only because he is using the English word "entity" in an antiquated recherché manner. He does not mean "an entity," in the way that you or I could be considered "an entity." If we consider Watson's usage of "entity" to refer to entities like you or me, that sense of "entity" is identical to "sentient beings" and is not what the word 體 actually means. 體 does get picked up in Japanese as a Chinese loanword, but its dominant sense in Chinese is "essence," not "(physical) body." The dominant sense of "kāya" in "dharmakāya" is similarly not "physical body" or even "personal body."
this is really quite helpful..
but in total layman's terms...what do you think is the use of the Dharmakaya body...what ever it may be or what ever nature it is.

like does it aid in communication.. is it used to aid in a sentient an individual, teach someone . set up a set of circumstance in order for the person to learn...can it actually do stuff...

also hopefully the dzogchen people did not see insult in my last post
...but more of something i see keep cropping up...if you view how Malcolm says what he says in the OP...you see it is something other than sunyata. taken to a whole other level...

this like changing stuff to suit something other...but hey...it could be me..and i mean no prejudice here.
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Re: Dharmakaya Body View

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

The Dharmakaya is not an idea object with some utilitarian function like that, asking what utilitarian function it serves is a somewhat absurd question, because intellectual concepts are just our limited way of trying to fit what is utterly beyond our conception into words and concepts.

The usefulness of -those- obviously varies as widely as sentient beings do.
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Re: Dharmakaya Body View

Post by Minobu »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:48 pm The Dharmakaya is not an idea object with some utilitarian function like that, asking what utilitarian function it serves is a somewhat absurd question, because intellectual concepts are just our limited way of trying to fit what is utterly beyond our conception into words and concepts.

The usefulness of -those- obviously varies as widely as sentient beings do.
so like are you soooo sure that The Buddha does not have a vehicle to do what i described as the Dharmakaya Body...

It's like the whole thing gets lumped in with a view of some kind of emptiness.

No one here knows ...it seems...

anyway ..as per dzogchen...i wish someone would attain the thing...for real ..i wish it ...why...it would benefit all ....

but if no one actually has attained it you end up with jerk water explanations watered down from teachings no one experienced...even the top dudes are like in courts for crap...so like i don;t know knock the bejeevers out of Nichiren , make fun of the gakki...but people in glass houses should not throw stones..

actually you don't do that ..you are the only civil person in this place...at least when you post against somebody all this hubris crap does not appear ...and i respect you for that...i used to think you were like some prick mod...but i was soo frakkinG wrong...

but man...i fed up with myself and others who say they know stuff..or talk like they do..i do that ..i say stuff that people read...but i don;t know it...i'm bouncing off ideas...

i admit i am looking through the foggiest of the foggiest of lenses...i know that i don't know...i know what i experienced but it's not like anything other than well...i would only sound caraaaazy...lol...


but why would it not be some utilitarian function like that ...seriously ....why are you so sure?

what brings you to this conclusion...

one time when i was alone with Rinpoche ...i forget what we were talking about...one thing with a smile and that look...he said to me is "We can do little magics "...cause he knew i am all like looking for that stuff..then i don;t know where the conversation was but we were talking about him and he said .."And my Dharmakaya Body..."

i took it to mean like he could use it. what ever it was...then malcolm talking about like this and all of you going along that paradigm...like you have to or to be loyal...or if you crack for a second it would make you an outcast or something...


but i really feel like all of you including me ...doesn't really know...



ok just checking preview and i remember ..he said this in conversation and he said .."And my Dharmakaya Body..." when we were discussing tantra and visualizing him as my root guru...it was in that context....So that could mean His Knowledge..and i got it wrong...maybe...i dunno...still sounds like he can utilize something..
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Re: Dharmakaya Body View

Post by Malcolm »

Minobu wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:36 pm What exactly is the Dharmakaya Body.
According to Maitreya and Asanga:

[Asanga explains:]
If it is asked what the dharmakāya, [Maitreya states]:

The dharmakāya has two aspects:
the very pure dharmadhātu
and that explication of the methods
and the variety that corresponds with that cause.


[Asanga explains:] The dharmakāya of the buddha is understood in two aspects. The very pure dharmadhātu is the domain that is the experiential domain of nonconceptuality. That is understood as the dharma the tathāgatas know personally. The cause of obtaining that is the corresponding cause, the very pure dharmadhātu, which is perceived in sentient beings according to how they are to be tamed.

Further, that is known from the perspective of the dharma to be explained. Also the explanation has two aspects, divided into subtle and vast dharmas. This is as follows: from the perspective of ultimate truth, the bodhisattva piṭaka explicates the method of presenting the profound dharma. From the perspective of relative truth, there are methods of presenting many varieties of [teachings] such as the sūtras, praises, predictions, verses, the sayings, and nidanas, and so on.

[Maitreya states]:
Beyond the world, but in the world—
because the example for this cannot be indicated,
the tathāgata itself and the element
are explained to be similar.
The subtle and profound method of explaining
is like the one taste of honey.
The way of explaining diverse aspects
is like the heart of different bodies.


[Asanga explains:] As such, the three examples of the buddha statue, honey, and the heart, from the perspective of the meaning of the dharmakāya of the tathāgata pervading all sentient beings, these sentient beings are called "possessors of the essence of the tathāgata." That sentient being who exists outside the dharmakāya of the tathāgatas does not exist in the realm of sentient beings at all.

The element of space is like matter. How? It is said:

Just as the element of space is held to always goes everywhere,
likewise, that [dharmakāya] always goes everywhere.
Just as space goes into all matter,
likewise, that goes into the multitude of sentient beings.


Then you must ask, what is the dharmadhātu?

[Maitreya states]:
Because the dharmadhātu is
naturally pure, it is luminosity.


Then you must ask, what is luminosity?

The answer:

[Asanga explains:] Because that mind is luminous by original nature, it is seen that afflictions are natureless.

So, the luminosity of the mind is the dharmadhātu, the realization of the dharmadhātu is the dharmakāya.

And to sum it up, the Perfection of Wisdom states:

There is no mind in the mind, but the original nature of the mind is luminous.
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Re: Dharmakaya Body View

Post by LastLegend »

All explanations above are well placed...as such there is a corresponding state amongst us and amongst us with past Ancient Buddhas. This however falls under utilization towards a complete Buddha.

It depends on people’s beliefs...realization is a loose term.
Last edited by LastLegend on Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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