Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

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Minobu
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Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?

Post by Minobu »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:56 pm
Minobu wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:07 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:30 pm

Aside from the fact that “nothing really exists” (nihilism) isn’t the view of other Buddhist schools, can you please clarify the point made above...
“... all non buddhist teachings are actually Buddhist.”
—but somehow, other Buddhist schools (In Nichiren’s opinion) aren’t actually Buddhist??
It's a view that in order for people to be able to understand Buddhism , they need preparation. It's in the gosho Malcolm just read and explains it fully.
Yes, it mostly is a restatement of Tientai doctrine.

Xi Yi was a very brilliant scholar, but I don't accept the five periods scheme. Therefore, I don't accept Nichiren teleology concerning the Lotus Sūtra. I am not telling you not to accept it. I am stating I don't accept it.
which is totally fair..you have your opinion. and i constantly reflect on these matters...sometimes i have to totally deny everything in order to come to a conclusion....literraly walk away from Lotus buddhism and try other stuff...

but that being said in light of the reason for Xi Yi to come to his base theory it all boils down to sutra , doctrine, and the denial of previous sutras before the Lotus Sutra.

the gosho explains why Xi Yi and he come to that conclusion.

anyway...while you are here...and the fact the whole Nichiren thing is based on the Lotus sutra...

I don;t get how he comes up with his practice...or Xi Yi for that matter...came up with his ...


is there anything Buddha said about practice..any practice that is done in Buddhist schools today....and you know there are lots.....i heard that the only meditation he ever actually taught historically is Vipassana breathing meditation...
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Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?

Post by Caoimhghín »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:56 pmXi Yi
Minobu wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:28 pmXi Yi
I don't think "Xi Yi" is correct. "Zhiyi" or "Zhi Yi" if you want to separate the components. Obviously there are diacritics if you have an international keyboard. Wades-Giles is different too, but doesn't render the Pinyin "zh" as "x," but rather as "ch."

"X" is a non-retroflex "sh" in Pinyin.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
Malcolm
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Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?

Post by Malcolm »

Caoimhghín wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:54 am
Malcolm wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:56 pmXi Yi
Minobu wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:28 pmXi Yi
I don't think "Xi Yi" is correct. "Zhiyi" or "Zhi Yi" if you want to separate the components. Obviously there are diacritics if you have an international keyboard. Wades-Giles is different too, but doesn't render the Pinyin "zh" as "x," but rather as "ch."

"X" is a non-retroflex "sh" in Pinyin.
Sounds the same to me.
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by SilenceMonkey »

"Zhi yi" in pinyin, "Chih-i" in wade-giles spelling. Pronounced "jurr-yee" :toilet:

"Xi yi" in pinyin would be pronounced "shee-yee"
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Malcolm »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 2:00 am "Zhi yi" in pinyin, "Chih-i" in wade-giles spelling. Pronounced "jurr-yee" :toilet:

"Xi yi" in pinyin would be pronounced "shee-yee"
Never studied Chinese.
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 3:24 am
SilenceMonkey wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 2:00 am "Zhi yi" in pinyin, "Chih-i" in wade-giles spelling. Pronounced "jurr-yee" :toilet:

"Xi yi" in pinyin would be pronounced "shee-yee"
Never studied Chinese.
No worries. I'm just writing it out for people.
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Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?

Post by tkp67 »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 3:43 pm
tkp67 wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:50 pm
Should this be interpreted that you feel all east asian lotus based traditions are counterfeit? If not what is the basis of discrimination?
I regard as false any claim that the Lotus is the end-all-be-all teaching of the Buddha, that it represents the final word on the Buddha's teaching in his career as a nirmāṇakāya 2500+- years ago.
Yet your comparison is based on a juxtapose comparison of form not an evaluation based on how it was taught to be interpreted by the patriarchs of the EA lineage. I think it is fair to say the evaluation of Tibetan tantra practice by merely reading some tantra they find on their own would fall flat as well.
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Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?

Post by Malcolm »

tkp67 wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:25 am
Malcolm wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 3:43 pm
tkp67 wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:50 pm
Should this be interpreted that you feel all east asian lotus based traditions are counterfeit? If not what is the basis of discrimination?
I regard as false any claim that the Lotus is the end-all-be-all teaching of the Buddha, that it represents the final word on the Buddha's teaching in his career as a nirmāṇakāya 2500+- years ago.
Yet your comparison is based on a juxtapose comparison of form not an evaluation based on how it was taught to be interpreted by the patriarchs of the EA lineage. I think it is fair to say the evaluation of Tibetan tantra practice by merely reading some tantra they find on their own would fall flat as well.
Correct. I am not evaluating this text based on how it was received and understood in China by the Tientai school. I am evaluating this text based on how it is cited and understood in India.

In general, based on the sheer number of Indian commentaries for it, the Perfection of Wisdom group of sutras is by far the most important group of sutras in India. Not only are there more commentaries on them, but the Perfection of Wisdom sutras are by far the largest group.

Further, you will find it said in the tantras that the only effective practice in this day and age is Vajrayana practice.

So, as usual, it all depends on who you are inclined to believe.
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Queequeg »

The Lotus is a key log. Perhaps not the key log.

I find it compelling. It declares that everything the Buddha teaches is upaya. Everything. Including the story of the Buddha's life. Including stories about other buddhas and bodhisattvas and beings in far off lands. It is the ultimate cure against religious attachment professed in the language of religious attachment. Something that ought to be approached with religious awe that will free you of religious imprisonment. Its the Wizard of Oz's confession. "You, Cowardly Lion, have Buddhanature, too! Always have! Buddhanature is connate since time without beginning! But you are demoralized and can't accept this, so I tell you stories and contrive circumstances to save you from your misguided activities and to build up your confidence. Now that you are built up and strong through your dedicated Dharma practice, it is time to tell you the truth about how wonderful you are, as you are. You will be a buddha!"

Svaha! Its the joyful good news! That's all. And if someone doesn't get that, they don't appreciate how wonderful buddhanature is and they probably need to keep slogging on with their austerities on the cushion and elsewhere. So says the Buddha in the Lotus teaching. Let it be. Either on the bus or not. That's all.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 1:43 pm The Lotus is a key log. Perhaps not the key log.

I find it compelling. It declares that everything the Buddha teaches is upaya. Everything. Including the story of the Buddha's life. Including stories about other buddhas and bodhisattvas and beings in far off lands. It is the ultimate cure against religious attachment professed in the language of religious attachment. Something that ought to be approached with religious awe that will free you of religious imprisonment. Its the Wizard of Oz's confession. "You, Cowardly Lion, have Buddhanature, too! Always have! Buddhanature is connate since time without beginning! But you are demoralized and can't accept this, so I tell you stories and contrive circumstances to save you from your misguided activities and to build up your confidence. Now that you are built up and strong through your dedicated Dharma practice, it is time to tell you the truth about how wonderful you are, as you are. You will be a buddha!"

Svaha! Its the joyful good news! That's all. And if someone doesn't get that, they don't appreciate how wonderful buddhanature is and they probably need to keep slogging on with their austerities on the cushion and elsewhere. So says the Buddha in the Lotus teaching. Let it be. Either on the bus or not. That's all.
Yes, it’s an enjoyable read, and has much literary merit. It’s just not that philosophically compelling.

As has been discussed, the Indians distilled the essence of the various important sutras into their key points, think of the sutras as wine, and sastras as brandy, the latter distilled from the former.
Last edited by Malcolm on Wed Jun 09, 2021 2:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 2:07 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 1:43 pm The Lotus is a key log. Perhaps not the key log.

I find it compelling. It declares that everything the Buddha teaches is upaya. Everything. Including the story of the Buddha's life. Including stories about other buddhas and bodhisattvas and beings in far off lands. It is the ultimate cure against religious attachment professed in the language of religious attachment. Something that ought to be approached with religious awe that will free you of religious imprisonment. Its the Wizard of Oz's confession. "You, Cowardly Lion, have Buddhanature, too! Always have! Buddhanature is connate since time without beginning! But you are demoralized and can't accept this, so I tell you stories and contrive circumstances to save you from your misguided activities and to build up your confidence. Now that you are built up and strong through your dedicated Dharma practice, it is time to tell you the truth about how wonderful you are, as you are. You will be a buddha!"

Svaha! Its the joyful good news! That's all. And if someone doesn't get that, they don't appreciate how wonderful buddhanature is and they probably need to keep slogging on with their austerities on the cushion and elsewhere. So says the Buddha in the Lotus teaching. Let it be. Either on the bus or not. That's all.
Yes, it’s an enjoyable read, and has much literary merit. It’s just not that philosophically compelling.
Some people like complicated. :shrug:
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 2:07 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 2:07 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 1:43 pm The Lotus is a key log. Perhaps not the key log.

I find it compelling. It declares that everything the Buddha teaches is upaya. Everything. Including the story of the Buddha's life. Including stories about other buddhas and bodhisattvas and beings in far off lands. It is the ultimate cure against religious attachment professed in the language of religious attachment. Something that ought to be approached with religious awe that will free you of religious imprisonment. Its the Wizard of Oz's confession. "You, Cowardly Lion, have Buddhanature, too! Always have! Buddhanature is connate since time without beginning! But you are demoralized and can't accept this, so I tell you stories and contrive circumstances to save you from your misguided activities and to build up your confidence. Now that you are built up and strong through your dedicated Dharma practice, it is time to tell you the truth about how wonderful you are, as you are. You will be a buddha!"

Svaha! Its the joyful good news! That's all. And if someone doesn't get that, they don't appreciate how wonderful buddhanature is and they probably need to keep slogging on with their austerities on the cushion and elsewhere. So says the Buddha in the Lotus teaching. Let it be. Either on the bus or not. That's all.
Yes, it’s an enjoyable read, and has much literary merit. It’s just not that philosophically compelling.
Some people like complicated. :shrug:
Or, some people want a manual, not a bunch of edifying stories.
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 2:10 pm Or, some people want a manual, not a bunch of edifying stories.
They're all stories. And nothing wrong with that. That's all we have. I love stories. I love many stories religiously and even put some into practice.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 2:15 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 2:10 pm Or, some people want a manual, not a bunch of edifying stories.
They're all stories. And nothing wrong with that. That's all we have. I love stories. I love many stories religiously and even put some into practice.
The problem with sutras in general is that they are not systematic. Abhidharma and tenet system are intended to put into a useable order the raw material of sutras, and this is true of the whole tradition of writing commentaries on sutras and tantras in all Mahayana countries.

Nevertheless, some sutras are more systematic then others.

Further, the whole attempt to define sutras by periods of the Buddha’s life, whether three turnings or five periods, are faulty criteria for evaluating the relative merits of this or that sutra, and mainly serve scholastic objectives.

The least convincing criteria for a practice is personal testimonials.
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 2:38 pm The problem with sutras in general is that they are not systematic. Abhidharma and tenet system are intended to put into a useable order the raw material of sutras, and this is true of the whole tradition of writing commentaries on sutras and tantras in all Mahayana countries.
Right. Trying to make cohesive sense of stuff that just wasn't made that way.

For pretty obvious religious reasons, we attribute all these different teachings to one personality - the Buddha. But when we start examining things closely, the stories are not so consistent. This is clear between Nikaya/Agama and Mahayana, but even within the Nikaya/Agama things are not consistent, and within Mahayana, sutras say a lot of incompatible things. These are the tensions that produced the copious commentarial literature you refer to. The various commentaries, with their various strategies, try to order things so that they are consistent and we can still say with an earnest countenance - "It's all the Buddha's teaching." Aside from the obvious religious compulsion, I'd say this is the natural inclination of the human mind to seek out and discern comprehensive and meaningful patterns. We evolved as beings to see patterns, and as we developed leisure beyond mere survival, developed language, we turned that instinct to see patterns to the meaning of life.

The Lotus is honest without violating the dictum that the Buddha is infallible. It dispenses with the motivation of commentaries that seek to make order. The Lotus in several places confronts this problem head on, concluding, even though it is all but admitted that the Buddha tells stories that on their face are not factually true, he is not actually lying, the Lotus insists, because he's telling people what they need to hear to save them. Clearly, the authors of that text were aiming to address this problem which was probably a source of deep controversy at the time it was composed. And how did they do that? By going whole hog into fiction, as if to turn their argument into performance art, describing an impossible assembly on Grdhakuta, and an even more impossible transformation of the Earth with flying stupa of massive proportions and an eruption of bodhisattvas of greater appearance than any theretofore known, as if to emphasize how ridiculous a story it is but in the pious language of sutras, all to point out: They're all artful stories.
Nevertheless, some sutras are more systematic then others.
Still stories with particular aims: to try and fix the gaze on the Truth!
Further, the whole attempt to define sutras by periods of the Buddha’s life, whether three turnings or five periods, are faulty criteria for evaluating the relative merits of this or that sutra, and mainly serve scholastic objectives.
Stories, stories, all stories. That doesn't mean they don't convey some truth, maybe even Truth.
The least convincing criteria for a practice is personal testimonials.
Oh?

"My deliverance is unshakeable; this is my last birth; now there is no renewal of being."

The foundation of all Buddhism is a personal testimonial.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 3:22 pm
The Lotus is honest without violating the dictum that the Buddha is infallible. It dispenses with the motivation of commentaries that seek to make order.
But it doesn't really. Why do we know this? Because in India the Lotus is cited principally to reinforce the notion of the one vehicle.

The Lotus in several places confronts this problem head on, concluding, even though it is all but admitted that the Buddha tells stories that on their face are not factually true, he is not actually lying, the Lotus insists, because he's telling people what they need to hear to save them.
There are a number of sutras that employ this strategy, not merely the Lotus Sūtra.
Clearly, the authors of that text were aiming to address this problem which was probably a source of deep controversy at the time it was composed. And how did they do that? By going whole hog into fiction, as if to turn their argument into performance art, describing an impossible assembly on Grdhakuta, and an even more impossible transformation of the Earth with flying stupa of massive proportions and an eruption of bodhisattvas of greater appearance than any theretofore known, as if to emphasize how ridiculous a story it is but in the pious language of sutras, all to point out: They're all artful stories.


Yes, and they have their audience, but these sūtras, like the Lotus, the Skillful Means Sūtra, the Secret of the Tathāgatas, and so on do not present coherent, systematic, usable path. Even the Perfection of Wisdom Sūtras do not present an explicitly usable path. The Maitreyan corpus, for example, synthesizes all the Mahāyāna sūtras into a usable path in the Sūtralaṃkara. The progress of the bodhisattva path is specifically charted in the Abhisamayālaṃkāra, which presents the concealed meaning of the PP Sūtras with both Madhyamakas and Yogacārins agreeing that this text was the bees knees in explaining the both the progress of buddhahood and the omniscience of buddhahood, even though they disagreed on specific points of interpretation.

The least convincing criteria for a practice is personal testimonials.
Oh?

"My deliverance is unshakeable; this is my last birth; now there is no renewal of being."

The foundation of all Buddhism is a personal testimonial.

That may be the foundation of Buddhism, but the foundation of Buddhadharma is the realizing the truth that produces that exclamation. I prefer to focus on the latter rather than former.

A more convincing statement is Ehipaśyika, that is, "Come and see for yourself."
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Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?

Post by Caoimhghín »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 1:14 amSounds the same to me.
It's a matter of retroflexitivity and non-aspiration, two things that don't feature too prominently in English.

How to pronounce the "D" in Pinyin is even harder for someone mostly used to pronouncing English.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Minobu »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:27 pm foundation of Buddhadharma is the realizing the truth that produces that exclamation.
Wow ...what a morning...i get you now Loppon.
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:27 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 3:22 pm
The Lotus is honest without violating the dictum that the Buddha is infallible. It dispenses with the motivation of commentaries that seek to make order.
But it doesn't really. Why do we know this? Because in India the Lotus is cited principally to reinforce the notion of the one vehicle.
The interpretation in the Indian commentary that survives doesn't necessarily tell us much about the circumstances under which the text was composed. You're proposing some monolithic "Indian Buddhism" and that's just naive. What you are referring to just tells us what order those commentators put the Lotus in. Sure, it tells us a little about how they, writing several centuries after its composition, thought about it.

And as for One Vehicle, its explained as the Buddha's resort to upaya.

I get why you hold the position you do. In the end, its a point of view.
The Lotus in several places confronts this problem head on, concluding, even though it is all but admitted that the Buddha tells stories that on their face are not factually true, he is not actually lying, the Lotus insists, because he's telling people what they need to hear to save them.
There are a number of sutras that employ this strategy, not merely the Lotus Sūtra.
Sure. And some of them even address this problem of the Buddha's inconsistency. Ekayana literature.
Yes, and they have their audience, but these sūtras, like the Lotus, the Skillful Means Sūtra, the Secret of the Tathāgatas, and so on do not present coherent, systematic, usable path. Even the Perfection of Wisdom Sūtras do not present an explicitly usable path. The Maitreyan corpus, for example, synthesizes all the Mahāyāna sūtras into a usable path in the Sūtralaṃkara. The progress of the bodhisattva path is specifically charted in the Abhisamayālaṃkāra, which presents the concealed meaning of the PP Sūtras with both Madhyamakas and Yogacārins agreeing that this text was the bees knees in explaining the both the progress of buddhahood and the omniscience of buddhahood, even though they disagreed on specific points of interpretation.
Yes, from the little I've been exposed to, its great stuff. I'm a fan of these stories.
The least convincing criteria for a practice is personal testimonials.
Oh?

"My deliverance is unshakeable; this is my last birth; now there is no renewal of being."

The foundation of all Buddhism is a personal testimonial.

That may be the foundation of Buddhism, but the foundation of Buddhadharma is the realizing the truth that produces that exclamation. I prefer to focus on the latter rather than former.

A more convincing statement is Ehipaśyika, that is, "Come and see for yourself."
Buddha or Dharma?

Rinse, repeat.

"Come and see for yourself [this wonderful thing I achieved]."
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:58 pm
Buddha or Dharma?
Awakening.
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