Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

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I know this is off topic but i gotta say this..

the best thing that ever happened to me online...*tears*
are Malcolm and QQ.

to have the privilege of watching these two guys go toe to toe and being able to ask questions of them...

just so thankful to Buddha for sending them and inspiring them to be what they are in 2021.

thank you, thank you ,thank you
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Bristollad »

QQ wrote:If you feel compelled to help people, then just help people. No need to dress it up in mythological drag or put it off until you have everything else lined up perfectly.
You honestly think that's what other practitioners are doing - indulging in fantasy or talking the talk without walking the walk? That seems quite a disparaging and cynical view.

As someone who aspires help all sentient beings, I do what I can now, fully acknowledging that what I do is limited by the afflictions and obscurations I have. It sounds like you feel those afflictions and obscurations don't make much difference, that people should just get on with helping...

That sounds like the motivation of a good politician, not a bodhisattva.
The antidote—to be free from the suffering of samsara—you need to be free from delusion and karma; you need to be free from ignorance, the root of samsara. So you need to meditate on emptiness. That is what you need. Lama Zopa Rinpoche
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by tkp67 »

Bristollad wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:14 am
QQ wrote:If you feel compelled to help people, then just help people. No need to dress it up in mythological drag or put it off until you have everything else lined up perfectly.
You honestly think that's what other practitioners are doing - indulging in fantasy or talking the talk without walking the walk? That seems quite a disparaging and cynical view.

As someone who aspires help all sentient beings, I do what I can now, fully acknowledging that what I do is limited by the afflictions and obscurations I have. It sounds like you feel those afflictions and obscurations don't make much difference, that people should just get on with helping...

That sounds like the motivation of a good politician, not a bodhisattva.
TB have been disparaging the EA traditions with doubt for some time here. Seems the crow has come home to roost.

None of it is reasonable upon inspection (disparaging) but it is a dominant facet of the western mind. Thus the appeal for ritual, tantra, esoteric, academic and other flavors of propagation.

The power of the mind to manifest these things as reality means they are as real as the mind. There is no separation between the mind and manifested reality regardless of delusional or truth. This is where it falls apart. Arguing against manifestations in the mind of others without understanding them. I like to use the word objective because it seems reasonable that people can objectively consider such things without evoking discordant positions.

I see an opportunity to learn from all minds and would be bereft much of what I have learned if there wasn't such diversity being expressed as such.
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Bristollad »

tkp67 wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:24 am
Bristollad wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:14 am
QQ wrote:If you feel compelled to help people, then just help people. No need to dress it up in mythological drag or put it off until you have everything else lined up perfectly.
You honestly think that's what other practitioners are doing - indulging in fantasy or talking the talk without walking the walk? That seems quite a disparaging and cynical view.

As someone who aspires help all sentient beings, I do what I can now, fully acknowledging that what I do is limited by the afflictions and obscurations I have. It sounds like you feel those afflictions and obscurations don't make much difference, that people should just get on with helping...

That sounds like the motivation of a good politician, not a bodhisattva.
TB have been disparaging the EA traditions with doubt for some time here. Seems the crow has come home to roost.

None of it is reasonable upon inspection (disparaging) but it is a dominant facet of the western mind. Thus the appeal for ritual, tantra, esoteric, academic and other flavors of propagation.

The power of the mind to manifest these things as reality means they are as real as the mind. There is no separation between the mind and manifested reality regardless of delusional or truth. This is where it falls apart. Arguing against manifestations in the mind of others without understanding them. I like to use the word objective because it seems reasonable that people can objectively consider such things without evoking discordant positions.

I see an opportunity to learn from all minds and would be bereft much of what I have learned if there wasn't such diversity being expressed as such.
I haven't disparaged East Asian Buddhism. I have asked questions to try and understand the way Buddhism in East Asia is expressed. Why? I because I like to know and understand things, and it makes for a better conversation if people aren't talking past each other. It can also help my own practise of the Dharma (new viewpoints often make for new insights).
The antidote—to be free from the suffering of samsara—you need to be free from delusion and karma; you need to be free from ignorance, the root of samsara. So you need to meditate on emptiness. That is what you need. Lama Zopa Rinpoche
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Queequeg »

Queequeg wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:43 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:19 pm
Your claims that the Lotus teaches a so-called buddhayāna which is somehow different than Mahāyāna bodhisattvayāna, is certainly not substantiated by the text itself...

I could go on, but you should get my drift. The bodhisattva yāna you think the Lotus is criticizing is not the Mahāyāna bodhisattva path, it is the bodhisattva path as it is taught in Hinayāna sūtras, Abhidharma, and so on.
Christ.
I understand what you are saying, but I don't agree that its as unambiguous as you claim. In using the term, "Buddhayana", "Ekayana", contrasting it with "Bodhisattvayana," a distinction is clearly being made. If Mahayana always in all instances meant "one vehicle taught as three" from the start, there would be no reason to explain this. This text is clearly responding to something. I argued above, when this text was compiled, I'm not convinced that what has later become Mahayana orthodoxy was clearly established. We know that there are some early "Mahayana" texts that take the three vehicles as distinct. The idea that Mahayana was there from the beginning, fully formed, but had just been kept secret for the first few centuries after the Buddha passed, or kept among some group that didn't have the institutional authority to gain recognition, or handed to Nagarjuna by the Nagas, is just not compelling and hardly worth discussing outside of a faith based discussion.

Also, to be clear, I am not making the claim that this is the only place this idea is conveyed. We do, however, have to be honest and take into account that each time it is explained, it is defined by the particular way it is explained. Other texts may be later in time and manage to smooth out the doctrines. Some might be earlier and not include the same elaboration. Each instance where the Ekayana is explained is defined by its particulars, and the nature of that distinction, IMO, is up for debate. Is it just this Abhidharma idea of Bodhisattva that is being criticized? Maybe.

I know you discount certain turns in the narrative by adding footnotes. I do think there is a place to read the text with those footnotes. But, reading with footnotes also changes the narrative. Personally, I don't find the footnotes you want to add particularly convincing. The whole, "well, he's an advanced bodhisattva and actually knows the answer but is just asking for other's edification." It just smacks of someone making things up to accommodate something that doesn't quite fit in their preconceptions. I may be suffering a similar affliction.

Here is why I think there is something to the argument that the Lotus is critiquing certain ideas of the Mahayana.

The text is premised on this idea that the Buddha through the first 40 some odd years had not fully revealed his teaching and that he wanted to reveal it in full. He starts by overturning the conception of three vehicles and giving prophecies of buddhahood to the arhats, but then the narrative dramatically changes. A giant stupa emerges out of the ground and floats in the air. The Sahalokha is purified and the Buddha's emanations are gathered. Inside the stupa is Prabhutaratna who had vowed that wherever the Lotus is taught, he would appear with his stupa to testify to the veracity of the teaching.

Through the first 10 chapters it is indeed the Sravakayana and Pratyekabuddhayana that are the main target of critique. With the appearance Prabhutaratna's Stupa, the focus of the narrative changes.

Prabhutaratna was a buddha who appeared eons ago. That buddha made a vow:

‘In the past when I was practicing bodhisattva conduct, the highest, complete enlightenment did not arise while I had not heard the instruction to bodhisattvas, the Dharma teaching of The White Lotus of the Good Dharma. After I had heard this Dharma teaching of The White Lotus of the Good Dharma, I attained the highest, complete enlightenment... ‘Bhikṣus, when I have passed into nirvāṇa, a great precious stūpa that contains my body should be made... ‘This stūpa that is mine, the stūpa that contains my body, may it appear within the buddha realms in world realms in the ten directions wherever this Dharma teaching of The White Lotus of the Good Dharma will be taught. When those buddha bhagavāns are giving this Dharma teaching of The White Lotus of the Good Dharma, may it be suspended in the air above the circle of the assembly. May the stūpa that contains my body congratulate the Buddha Bhagavān who is giving this Dharma teaching of The White Lotus of the Good Dharma.’
(from the 84000 translation)

The Assembly then asks to see Prabhutaratna's body.

‘When buddha bhagavāns in other realms are giving this Dharma teaching of The White Lotus of the Good Dharma, may the stūpa that contains my body come into the presence of those tathāgatas in order to listen to this Dharma teaching of The White Lotus of the Good Dharma. When those buddha bhagavāns wish to expose my body and reveal it to the fourfold assembly, then may those tathāgatas assemble together all the emanations from their own bodies that are in the form of tathāgatas in the ten directions, each in their own buddha realm, each with their own name, and teaching the Dharma in those buddha realms. Then afterward, together with those emanations from their own bodies in the forms of tathāgatas, may they open the stūpa that contains my body and reveal it to the fourfold assembly.’

Shakyamuni then purifies the Saha realm and gathers his emanations and the stupa is opened. The Assembly is levitated into the air. Prabhutaratna then invites Shakyamuni to sit with him inside the Stupa. Shakyamuni then gives Devadatta a prophecy of enlightenment and the Naga king's daughter instantaneously manifests Buddhahood.

The bodhisattvas in the Assembly then come forward and vow to accept and propagate the Lotus after the Buddha's parinirvana. The bhikus in the Assembly follow suit and are all given prophecies of Buddhahood. The nuns, feeling left out are then given prophecies of Buddhahood. In the next chapter the Buddha gives instructions to the Bodhisattvas on practicing the Lotus. A worthwhile read. In describing this teaching, the Buddha remarks,

"Mañjuśrī, this is the supreme Dharma taught by the tathāgatas. This is the final Dharma teaching of the tathāgatas. Among all Dharma teachings this is the most profound Dharma teaching. It does not accord with the world."

The Buddha then likens the Lotus to a jewel in a king's top knot that he reserves for only his greatest warrior.

The bodhisattvas in the Assembly then renew their request to receive the teaching and carry out a vow to propagate it after the parinirvana. The Buddha declines and then states that he already has numerous bodhisattvas in the world who will do so. At that point, hosts of bodhisattvas erupt from the Earth. After greeting the Buddha, the bodhisattvas in the Assembly led by Maitreya remark:

“A great gathering of bodhisattvas, a great aggregation of bodhisattvas has emerged out from the ground, and standing before the Bhagavān has honored, revered, and pleased the Bhagavān. This is something we have never seen and never heard of before. Where did these bodhisattva mahāsattvas come from?”

And there is the explicit distinction of the bodhisattvas in the Assembly as on an incomplete path. If you just footnote that Maitreya actually knows the answer to the question, then of course it changes the narrative. If, however, you take the story as it is written, it presents a different message. As if to reinforce this, the bodhisattvas who had accompanied the emanation buddhas from the ten directions also asked their respective buddhas where these bodhisattvas came from.

The Buddha then explains they are all his disciples.

"The bodhisattva mahāsattva Maitreya and the many hundred thousands of quintillions of bodhisattvas were then astonished and amazed. How could the Buddha in a moment —in such a short time —inspire and ripen for the highest, complete enlightenment all these countless bodhisattvas?"

Maitreya gives voice to their question:

“Bhagavān, when the Tathāgata was a young man, you left the Śākya town of Kapilavastu for homelessness. You went to the supreme Bodhimaṇḍa that is not very far from the city of Gayā. You attained the highest, complete enlightenment of perfect buddhahood. [F.116.b] Bhagavān, since that time until today more than forty years have passed. Bhagavān, how could the Tathāgata in such a short time as this accomplish such countless tathāgata activities as these? How did you attain the preeminence of a tathāgata, and the heroism of a tathāgata? Bhagavān, you have inspired and ripened for the highest, complete enlightenment this great gathering of bodhisattva mahāsattvas, this great aggregation of bodhisattvas, in just that amount of time. Bhagavān, one would not be able to count this great gathering of bodhisattva mahāsattvas, this great aggregation of bodhisattvas, even in a hundred thousand quintillion eons. Bhagavān, such innumerable, countless bodhisattvas have practiced celibacy for a long time, creating roots of merit under many hundreds of thousands of buddhas, and perfecting themselves over many hundreds of thousands of eons.

“Bhagavān, it is as if there were a young man, a lad of twenty-five years of age, with black hair, in the first phase of his adulthood, who revealed that he has sons that are a hundred years old. He says, ‘These noble ones are my sons; they are my sons,’ and they say, ‘This man is our father.’ Bhagavān, what they say would not be believed. It would be difficult for the world to believe them.

“Bhagavān, similarly, it is not very long since you, Tathāgata, attained the highest, complete enlightenment of perfect buddhahood. These countless, innumerable bodhisattva mahāsattvas have practiced celibacy for many hundreds of thousands of eons; they have gained certainty in the wisdom of buddhahood during a long period of time; they are skilled in resting in hundreds of thousands of samādhis; [F.117.a] they have developed the great higher knowledges; they are wise in the level of buddhahood; they are skilled in teaching the dharmas of the Tathāgata; they are an amazement and wonder in this world; and they have attained great diligence, strength, and might.

“The Bhagavān has said of them, ‘I am the one who first established them on the level of being a bodhisattva; I am the one who has ripened and developed them. It is through my attainment of the highest, complete enlightenment of perfect buddhahood that I have accomplished all this diligence and heroism.’

“Bhagavān, we will have faith in whatever the Tathāgata says, thinking, ‘The Tathāgata speaks infallibly. The Tathāgata knows the truth.’ However, Bhagavān, those newly following in the Bodhisattva yāna will have doubts. After the Tathāgata has passed into nirvāṇa, they will hear this Dharma teaching and they will not believe it, will not have faith in it, and will not be attracted to it. Therefore, Bhagavān, they will accrue the karma of rejecting the Dharma.

“Therefore, Bhagavān, explain the meaning of this well, so that we will not have any kind of doubt in this Dharma, and so that in the future time, when noble men and noble women who are on the Bodhisattva yāna hear it, they will not doubt it.”

Maitreya declares that he and the other advanced bodhisattvas will accept the teaching on faith, but others will have doubts.

The next chapter, the Life Span of the Tathagata, opens with the Buddha addressing the bodhisattvas. He is not addressing Shariputra and the sravakas. All along, the Buddha has been saying he is going to teach the ultimate teaching to the bodhisattvas. And now, here it comes.

This is where the Buddha illustrates the length of time since his awakening by resorting to the example of crushing world systems into dust and then spreading them around the universe and crushing those world systems into dust, with each dust particle representing eons. Maitreya admits that even the great bodhisattvas can't fathom this teaching:

“Bhagavān, those world realms are numberless, are innumerable, and are beyond the capacity of the mind. Bhagavān, even all the śrāvakas and pratyeka buddhas with their higher wisdom could not conceive of, calculate, or determine their number. Bhagavān, even for us bodhisattvas on the level of irreversibility this subject is beyond the scope of our thoughts. Bhagavān, the number of those world realms would be incalculable.”

Anyway, you get my drift. Even the great bodhisattvas of the Mahayana are not up to this teaching.

All of this informs what the Buddha was saying earlier about one vehicle taught as three, distinguishing the Buddhayana from the ordinary Mahayana. When you add footnotes to say, "Oh, Maitreya was just going along with the drag show" it maybe changes the story a little, but it remains that there are still hosts of bodhisattvas who are not at that level and who are actually astonished by this teaching, meaning there are different levels of Mahayana that are incomplete compared to the Ekayana.
Last edited by Queequeg on Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Queequeg »

Bristollad wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:14 am
QQ wrote:If you feel compelled to help people, then just help people. No need to dress it up in mythological drag or put it off until you have everything else lined up perfectly.
You honestly think that's what other practitioners are doing - indulging in fantasy or talking the talk without walking the walk? That seems quite a disparaging and cynical view.

As someone who aspires help all sentient beings, I do what I can now, fully acknowledging that what I do is limited by the afflictions and obscurations I have. It sounds like you feel those afflictions and obscurations don't make much difference, that people should just get on with helping...

That sounds like the motivation of a good politician, not a bodhisattva.
I go by what people say. I take them at their word. When someone despairs, "I can't help anyone because I'm just a helpless worldling," or "I will help beings when I'm a great being" is it my burden to discern what they really mean? I actually think they are selling themselves short, and that those impulses to help, however imperfect, are perfect. Of course, we can become more skilled and developed. That's the point of practicing. But when those kinds of words are contrived to circumscribe what one does, then I think its a cop out.

And you're right, I don't think those afflictions and obscurations amount to much in the face of the impulse to care for and help others.

As for characterizing motivations, who is being disparaging and cynical now?
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Giovanni »

tkp67 wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:24 am
Bristollad wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:14 am
QQ wrote:If you feel compelled to help people, then just help people. No need to dress it up in mythological drag or put it off until you have everything else lined up perfectly.
You honestly think that's what other practitioners are doing - indulging in fantasy or talking the talk without walking the walk? That seems quite a disparaging and cynical view.

As someone who aspires help all sentient beings, I do what I can now, fully acknowledging that what I do is limited by the afflictions and obscurations I have. It sounds like you feel those afflictions and obscurations don't make much difference, that people should just get on with helping...

That sounds like the motivation of a good politician, not a bodhisattva.
TB have been disparaging the EA traditions with doubt for some time here. Seems the crow has come home to roost.

None of it is reasonable upon inspection (disparaging) but it is a dominant facet of the western mind. Thus the appeal for ritual, tantra, esoteric, academic and other flavors of propagation.

The power of the mind to manifest these things as reality means they are as real as the mind. There is no separation between the mind and manifested reality regardless of delusional or truth. This is where it falls apart. Arguing against manifestations in the mind of others without understanding them. I like to use the word objective because it seems reasonable that people can objectively consider such things without evoking discordant positions.

I see an opportunity to learn from all minds and would be bereft much of what I have learned if there wasn't such diversity being expressed as such.
I have seen no disparagement of Eastern Buddhism from Tibetan Buddhists on this forum. I have seen a outright refusal to accept certain E.B. Scriptures on its own terms. But that is a healthy thing when done in good faith. I realise that if your Buddhist learning is within one school which sees itself as the definitive one, then disagreement might feel like aggression when it might just be honesty.
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by LastLegend »

^^^I am hoping we are on the same page. When the Jewel Buddha says the stupa is my body or some passage says inside stupa Jewel Buddha sits in meditative concentration...but you haven’t discussed how Bodhisattvas of Buddhayana perform their work.
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Queequeg »

LastLegend wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:48 pm ^^^I am hoping we are the same page. When the Jewel Buddha says the Buddha is my body or some passage says inside stupa Jewel Buddha sits in meditative concentration...but you haven’t discussed how Bodhisattvas of Buddhayana perform their work.
Thanks. You must know the answer already, but for the edification of all the others... :tongue:

My understanding is that the bodhisattvas continue as they were, the difference is the scope and scale of the practice changes. Instead of three eons, now we're talking quintillions of eons in a boundless universe with immeasurable beings.

Its comparable to something like...

A few centuries ago, most human beings never traveled more than thirty miles from the place they were born for their whole lives, or something like that. Now, people regularly travel around the world. They had no idea about the scale of the Earth, now most people are aware of the image of the Earth taken from space.

"Man's mind, stretched to a new idea, never goes back to its original dimension."

Buddhas teach through upaya. That is what I understand is the Buddhayana.
Last edited by Queequeg on Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Minobu »

I realize this is like the most moot statement i could make for most people reading this....

But when we look at Buddhism as a whole and all of it's facets and sects and run off cultures....
Nichiren Buddhism is the one most associated with the Lotus sutra in the present age of Buddhism.

It's approach i adopted for it does generate compassion .

Nichiren's whole approach was for others ...

without compassion as a base there is no Buddhist anything...learning , practicing , meditating...

any Tantric exercise involves compassion..it's the cure...it brings with it incredible energy..

when ever i used amphetamines it was always i huge compassion trip for me...

when i received Yamantaka Initiation...that night i was like as if on amphetamines surging with compassion ...

i cannot describe it....people like mother teresa sleep like 3 hours a day and the rest of it is helping...ya i know there are dirt now on the woman...

So i ask you...where in the Sutra is this compassion...

Up until this sutra people like voice hearers were told not only that they could not attain Buddhahood but it was useless to give alms to them...hence their livelihood dropped drastically due to this mentioned in a previous sutra.. Nichiren brought up ...it's where i read it...

sutras have consequence and the Lotus Sutra showed the ultimate compassion for all who were told no way ...no Buddhahood for you...forever....you don't have the right stuff... ...

Also one cannot deny a Lotus Sutra journey towards Nichiren Shonin...

Only in the Lotus sutra does ichinen sanzen become so clear...previous Sutras were incomplete on this matter...
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Minobu »

Queequeg wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:55 pm
Buddhas teach through upaya. That is what I understand is the Buddhayana.
Maybe with the Sutras but what about direct contact with Buddha when practicing Tantric exercise...

there is no upaya ...it's direct contact via Dharmakaya..

then the physiological changes that take place...the entities that enter your being...Even if you are totally unawares....

all of which happens with Gohonzon , even though Nichiren Shonin never talked or wrote about these things that anyone knows of now...

Now secound stage tantra is not afforded in Nichiren practice...and i strongly feel this is where one needs to step away from the usual denominations to seek this elsewhere...

Nichiren knew...look at His Candle stick....the symbolism is incredible. A coiled Dragon reaching the light...or disturbed by the heat /light...
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Queequeg »

Minobu wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:10 pm there is no upaya ...it's direct contact via Dharmakaya..
That's called the Sudden and Perfect Teaching in Tiantai. As I understand, later in Tendai, Vajrayana methods were applied to practice this.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by LastLegend »

Queequeg wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:55 pm
LastLegend wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:48 pm ^^^I am hoping we are the same page. When the Jewel Buddha says the Buddha is my body or some passage says inside stupa Jewel Buddha sits in meditative concentration...but you haven’t discussed how Bodhisattvas of Buddhayana perform their work.
Thanks. You must know the answer already, but for the edification of all the others... :tongue:

My understanding is that the bodhisattvas continue as they were, the difference is the scope and scale of the practice changes. Instead of three eons, now we're talking quintillions of eons in a boundless universe with immeasurable beings.

Its comparable to something like...

A few centuries ago, most human beings never traveled more than thirty miles from the place they were born for their whole lives, or something like that. Now, people regularly travel around the world. They had no idea about the scale of the Earth, now most people are aware of the image of the Earth taken from space.

"Man's mind, stretched to a new idea, never goes back to its original dimension."

Buddhas teach through upaya. That is what I understand is the Buddhayana.


If we are talking about enlightenment of empty Dharmakaya, there is no difference in this realization between Bodhisattvas and Buddhas. Though Bodhisattvas have to progress eventually.

Arhat is the practice to end of desire and end of delusional thoughts.
It’s eye blinking.
Bristollad
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Bristollad »

Queequeg wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:37 pm As for characterizing motivations, who is being disparaging and cynical now?
I don't know. I haven't tried to characterise your motivation. I've asked you to clarify what you meant a few times. I explained some of your words sounded disparaging and cynical to me.
Queequeg wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:37 pm When someone despairs, "I can't help anyone because I'm just a helpless worldling," or "I will help beings when I'm a great being" is it my burden to discern what they really mean?
I have never come across a Buddhist choosing to not try and help someone because their practice isn't perfect. Bodhisattvas don't perfect generosity and so forth and then practise them, they perfect them while practising them. Your view of what a bodhisattva is and does seem very different to mine.

I have a lot of respect for your knowledge of East Asian Buddhism but in this thread, you seem to be angry about something. I apologise if I'm partly responsible for that and I'll leave you to it.
The antidote—to be free from the suffering of samsara—you need to be free from delusion and karma; you need to be free from ignorance, the root of samsara. So you need to meditate on emptiness. That is what you need. Lama Zopa Rinpoche
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Minobu
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Minobu »

Queequeg wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:19 pm
Minobu wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:10 pm there is no upaya ...it's direct contact via Dharmakaya..
That's called the Sudden and Perfect Teaching in Tiantai. As I understand, later in Tendai, Vajrayana methods were applied to practice this.
WOW !!!

so cool..
Then it's as I thought ...This whole thing comes down to realize we all depend on one another in order to do the thing...

all these different practices now out in the open ...total global village....one click away from what ever you need to know...

part and parcel to the evolution of Buddhism...
Buddhism always seems to adopt to the enviroment it lands in...adopting and making it own...
Shinto , Bon ...same thing...

Anyway so Nichiren denominations should embrace TenDai..

i am so happy you study this stuff...
it's like having Nichiren around to ask questions on why he does this and why he says that..

which is really quite amazing for my development...like how did this happen...eh ...

to whom do we owe this pleasure to...

thank you thank you thank you..
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Minobu
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Minobu »

Bristollad wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:30 pm
Queequeg wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:37 pm As for characterizing motivations, who is being disparaging and cynical now?
I don't know. I haven't tried to characterise your motivation. I've asked you to clarify what you meant a few times. I explained some of your words sounded disparaging and cynical to me.
Queequeg wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:37 pm When someone despairs, "I can't help anyone because I'm just a helpless worldling," or "I will help beings when I'm a great being" is it my burden to discern what they really mean?
I have never come across a Buddhist choosing to not try and help someone because their practice isn't perfect. Bodhisattvas don't perfect generosity and so forth and then practise them, they perfect them while practising them. Your view of what a bodhisattva is and does seem very different to mine.

I have a lot of respect for your knowledge of East Asian Buddhism but in this thread, you seem to be angry about something. I apologise if I'm partly responsible for that and I'll leave you to it.
he's not angry he is a dick..he knows it and it's ok...

anyway compassion is an actual force...you can develop it ...you can increase it...focus it ...all with practice...you don't really get it from helping old ladies across the street...thats like from it...
Giovanni
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Giovanni »

Queequeg wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:19 pm
Minobu wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:10 pm there is no upaya ...it's direct contact via Dharmakaya..
That's called the Sudden and Perfect Teaching in Tiantai. As I understand, later in Tendai, Vajrayana methods were applied to practice this.
This of course is hugely interesting to any Vajrayana student. :tantrum:
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Queequeg
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Queequeg »

LastLegend wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:25 pm If we are talking about enlightenment of empty Dharmakaya, there is no difference in this realization between Bodhisattvas and Buddhas. Though Bodhisattvas have to progress eventually.
That's the question here isn't it? Are non-regressing bodhisattvas equally awakened to a buddha? This text seems to suggest that their realization is not the same as a buddha's realization.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Queequeg
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Queequeg »

Minobu wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:42 pm he's not angry he is a dick..he knows it and it's ok...
LOL. Correct.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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