Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
Locked
User avatar
tkp67
Posts: 2905
Joined: Sun May 12, 2019 5:42 am

Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by tkp67 »

It appears as if dharma appeals to the practitioner's mind and the specificity that seems so critical is simply a reflection of that appeal. The lotus sutra amplifies this because it is so conceptually "boundless" and lacking in distinction while making distinction throughout.
User avatar
Queequeg
Former staff member
Posts: 14464
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Queequeg »

Bristollad wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:39 pm
Queequeg wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 2:29 pm The bodhisattvayana is transformed by revealing its full scope. We still cultivate care, love, joy, equanimity, wisdom, but we're not aiming at some fantastic bodhi.
What does this mean?

The goal of the bodhisattva is to help all sentient beings so that they no longer suffer. They realise that to achieve that goal, nothing less than the state of being fully awakened is required.

Are you saying that bodhisattvas should no longer aim to become fully awakened in the East Asian view?
I guess the message is, fulfill the bodhisattva function when that is necessary. The buddha function when it is necessary. etc. (if you're up to it.) If you feel compelled to help people, then just help people. No need to dress it up in mythological drag or put it off until you have everything else lined up perfectly. Just do it. Doing it is bodhi. Doing it is carrying out the Buddha's work.
Last edited by Queequeg on Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:12 pm, edited 3 times in total.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
User avatar
Queequeg
Former staff member
Posts: 14464
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Queequeg »

Giovanni wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:39 pm But if I was the be cast away on a desert island with just one Sutra in my bag, it would be the Heart Sutra.
Having memorized it, I'd take something longer. Some compendium. I suspect I'd have a lot of idle time. LOL
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
User avatar
Queequeg
Former staff member
Posts: 14464
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Queequeg »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:47 pm People benefit from what they are able to connect with, and that is largely due to their own karma, and their previous karmic connections to the teachings.

My dog can’t understand why I want to take a bath and I don’t understand why he wants to roll around in poop. Everybody’s path is ultimately their own.
I'm still working on perfecting my acceptance of myriad paths and practices. Its a tough lesson to see even Trump is on his path to awakening. I really wish he were not taking us along on this leg of his journey, but, oh well, must be our karma that brought us together.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
User avatar
Queequeg
Former staff member
Posts: 14464
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Queequeg »

tkp67 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:07 pm IMHO the whole super buddha perfect human is a compass point to drive practitioners to liberation which imparts buddha wisdom which eliminates distinctions so at that point who cares to attain such distinction.

buddha seemed to have thought this stuff out through provision and after the elimination of self held the resultant wisdom.
Its an ideal. Its a seed of thought that sprouts in our imagination about things outside of the burning house that get us moving out of the burning house.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
User avatar
Minobu
Posts: 4228
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:57 pm

Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Minobu »

Queequeg wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:54 pm
Minobu wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:27 pm So i guess TenDai ......they took the teachings and made a practice out of them...
Yes. Most of Zhiyi's writings are practice manuals, including Mohezhikuan/Maka Shikan. What needs to be kept in mind is that all of his writings, and Buddhist writings in general, are practice guides. None of this stuff is a basis for knowledge. They can guide us and direct us, but without practice, its all just fairy tales.

In Japan, Tiantai was augmented with Vajrayana. Tendai, as I understand, emphasizes practice, and embraces all sorts of practices - whatever a person needs. Vajrayana teachings, however, are reserved only for those who receive ordination.
i don't know if this can be answered..but how did they derive practice from stories...
User avatar
Queequeg
Former staff member
Posts: 14464
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Queequeg »

Minobu wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:21 pm
Queequeg wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:54 pm
Minobu wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:27 pm So i guess TenDai ......they took the teachings and made a practice out of them...
Yes. Most of Zhiyi's writings are practice manuals, including Mohezhikuan/Maka Shikan. What needs to be kept in mind is that all of his writings, and Buddhist writings in general, are practice guides. None of this stuff is a basis for knowledge. They can guide us and direct us, but without practice, its all just fairy tales.

In Japan, Tiantai was augmented with Vajrayana. Tendai, as I understand, emphasizes practice, and embraces all sorts of practices - whatever a person needs. Vajrayana teachings, however, are reserved only for those who receive ordination.
i don't know if this can be answered..but how did they derive practice from stories...
I think it helps to think of theory and practice as two complementary aspects. Theory frames, informs, guides practice, and in turn practice brings theory to life. What's maybe lost is that Zhiyi came from a very strong practice background. It was there from the start.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
User avatar
tkp67
Posts: 2905
Joined: Sun May 12, 2019 5:42 am

Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by tkp67 »

Queequeg wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:16 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:47 pm People benefit from what they are able to connect with, and that is largely due to their own karma, and their previous karmic connections to the teachings.

My dog can’t understand why I want to take a bath and I don’t understand why he wants to roll around in poop. Everybody’s path is ultimately their own.
I'm still working on perfecting my acceptance of myriad paths and practices. Its a tough lesson to see even Trump is on his path to awakening. I really wish he were not taking us along on this leg of his journey, but, oh well, must be our karma that brought us together.
What is interesting is that mankind generally does not question this as a physical reality. If 4 people from 4 different parts of town go to meet somewhere they don't expect to use the same directions.

I think being a genetic first generation of multiple ethnicity as well as being exposed to them feeling equally a part of each has really helped me in this way.
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 9448
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Queequeg wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:16 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:47 pm People benefit from what they are able to connect with, and that is largely due to their own karma, and their previous karmic connections to the teachings.

My dog can’t understand why I want to take a bath and I don’t understand why he wants to roll around in poop. Everybody’s path is ultimately their own.
I'm still working on perfecting my acceptance of myriad paths and practices. Its a tough lesson to see even Trump is on his path to awakening. I really wish he were not taking us along on this leg of his journey, but, oh well, must be our karma that brought us together.
There is definitely a difference between saying that all the methods taught by the Buddha lead ultimately to buddhahood, and suggesting that whatever path a person is on leads to Buddhahood.

Likewise, the fact that all beings possess the basic potential (tathagatagharba) for realization, and that eventually they will attain it, doesn’t negate the fact that conditions are required for that realization to happen. It just means that someday those conditions will be there, and that being will be ready. As you might imagine, that is an extremely rare event.

There is nothing to suggest that Trump is on any path that leads towards awakening. A road, by definition, goes two opposite directions.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
User avatar
Queequeg
Former staff member
Posts: 14464
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Queequeg »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:37 pm
Queequeg wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:16 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:47 pm People benefit from what they are able to connect with, and that is largely due to their own karma, and their previous karmic connections to the teachings.

My dog can’t understand why I want to take a bath and I don’t understand why he wants to roll around in poop. Everybody’s path is ultimately their own.
I'm still working on perfecting my acceptance of myriad paths and practices. Its a tough lesson to see even Trump is on his path to awakening. I really wish he were not taking us along on this leg of his journey, but, oh well, must be our karma that brought us together.
There is definitely a difference between saying that all the methods taught by the Buddha lead ultimately to buddhahood, and suggesting that whatever path a person is on leads to Buddhahood.

Likewise, the fact that all beings possess the basic potential (tathagatagharba) for realization, and that eventually they will attain it, doesn’t negate the fact that conditions are required for that realization to happen. It just means that someday those conditions will be there, and that being will be ready. As you might imagine, that is an extremely rare event.

There is nothing to suggest that Trump is on any path that leads towards awakening. A road, by definition, goes two opposite directions.
I was kidding. A little bit.

Devadatta gets a prophecy of Buddhahood in the Lotus. There is a chapter in the Lotus about one of Shakyamuni's previous lives where he went around bowing to everyone saying, "I would never disparage you - you will be a buddha!" They responded by beating him up, but he kept doing it. Eventually, they all became his students. Whether a path goes someplace, sometimes it might take a lot of perspective to see that it winds around the really long way.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
User avatar
Minobu
Posts: 4228
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:57 pm

Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Minobu »

well I think this whole DW has become something...

when you press for a certain answer all sorts of stuff comes up but if you stick with it you get an inclining and eventually incorporate it into your practice paradigm..

i guess because i don't stick to one thing and say it is the only way i get to do this...

it's like the whole dharmakaya question...malcolm would cringe but i see this luminosity as MyoHo RenGe Kyo ...so for me my tathagatagarbha understanding incorporates all i've learned on the many paths that were laid out before me and i get this continual reformation...

but if i say tathagatagarbha is MYoHo RenGe Kyo and the goal of Dzogchen to sit in...i will get a whole bunch of flak...

i really think that Nichiren knew what it was and was able to give it a name we could call on...like Om Mani Padme hum calls on Lord Avalokiteshvara Buddha...and all His Traits ...

people don;' see it that way...right now i do...it was never like this before , for me...it prolly will change...

if i read enough NO YOUR WRONG!!!! it disappears..and back to drawing board...when in fact in my blurry ignorant affiliated state it was happening actually...


the thing with Q is as far back as i have known him he always saw what he is into now ..the same way...only it has gotten so much deeper and refined ...he has a knack to explain stuff to a long time Nichiren practitioner that opens doors to what they are doing...if they let him...I know he knows this stuff...the guy is a dick...but hey you can't have everything...

the worst curse is thinking like a fanatical Nichiren demon person...the ones who see this as the only real medicine on the planet or the best...they will shut off to anything they don't get from their denomination...it's a nightmare..

but the path is one ....there is only one path....only it is a broad highway with a gazzilion lanes...
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:44 pm Contrary to what you seem to think, Zhiyi did not claim that teachings in the Lotus were categorically unique to that sutra. Those who are exposed to the Lotus through Nichiren may not get this.
The people who discuss the Lotus the most, online at any rate, are Nichiren Buddhists, and generally, without any context at all for understanding Mahāyāna.

Your claims that the Lotus teaches a so-called buddhayāna which is somehow different than Mahāyāna bodhisattvayāna, is certainly not substantiated by the text itself. You sole argument for this rests on the three cart metaphor. You have gotten the idea from somewhere that the adjective "great" somehow renders the gifted ox-carts better than the promised ox-cart among the three. But the sūtra states:

That is why they are called bodhisattva mahāsattvas.They are like the children in the parable who come out of the burning house because of their longing for an ox-drawn cart.

The Mahāyāna, the bodhisattvayāna, and the buddhayāna are all completely synonymous. What it this cart?

3.131: “The strengths, the dhyānas, and likewise the liberations,
And numerous millions of samādhis,
They are the most excellent cart,
Which the Buddha’s sons continually enjoy."


This clearly indicates that the much desired cart is the five strenths, the dhyānas, and the three liberations, etc., the standard features of the the Mahāyāna path. Called Buddha's heirs, this clearly refers to bodhisattva mahāsattvas. Their career is long, not short:

3.132: They spend nights enjoying it,
And days, half-months, and months,
And likewise years and intermediate eons.
They spend ten billion eons doing so.


And so on. It is extremely clear that the Buddha here is in these gathas is proclaiming Mahāyāna as the vehicle for buddhahood. What is the Mahāyāna? The path of bodhisattvas. The Buddha addresses Shariputra as follows:

3.134-136: Tiṣya, you should know this today:
You may search in all ten directions,
But there is no second yāna whatsoever
Other than as a skillful method of the superior beings.

“I am your father and you are my sons.
I have saved you from the suffering
Of being burned for many millions of eons
Within the terrifying three realms.

“I have thus taught you nirvāṇa.
You are freed from the suffering of saṃsāra,
But you have still not attained nirvāṇa.
You need to seek the yāna of buddhahood.


Here, the Buddha is addressing an arhat, telling him he must seek out the bodhisattva path. Why? Because śrāvakas typically believe there can only be one buddha at a time.

When examined, who is being critiqued in the Lotus? Adherents of the Śrāvaka schools who assert that the desire to become a arhat, a pratyekabuddha, or a buddha are mutually exclusive. Indeed, Śrāvaka schools normatively teach that if one decides to take the bodhisattva path, one can no longer become a stream entrant, and that one is delaying one's realization of the path of seeing until one's final lifetime as a bodhisattva. Mahāyāna texts from the PP Sūtras onward understand and extol the ekayāna teachings. Thus, it is very clear that the Lotus is supporting the idea that there is only one actual path, the path to buddhahood, and that path is the bodhisattva path, and whether aware of it or not, everyone is on this path.

To sum up, I see no evidence to support your contention that the bodhisattva path mentioned is the Lotus is different from the buddhayāna, with one qualification. The Lotus can certainly be understood to be critiquing the śrāvaka notion that the three paths—srāvaka arhat, pratyekabuddha, and buddha—are mutually exclusive, and that choosing one is eschewing the other two. This is evident from a couple of facts: one, in the Lotus the Buddha predicts all sentient beings for full buddhahood; the srāvaka notion of an bodhisattva is that one must have been given a prediction during the lifetime of the Buddha to full buddhahood and that therefore, Mahāyānists who aspired for full buddhahood without said prediction were fools. Second, the Buddha, while not repudiating different inclinations for different results, repudiates that there are actually three seperate paths with three separate results, and further points out that the result sought by srāvakas—regardless of their inclination to realize the result of a srāvaka arhat, pratyekabuddha, or a buddha—is not merely the cessation from suffering. The Buddha in this text clarifies that nirvana is not merely the cessation of suffering:

3.142: Why do I say that this is not liberation?
Because this supreme, highest enlightenment is not attained.
I was born in this world in order to bring happiness.
That is the wish that I, the King of Dharma, have.


Anuttarasamyaksaṃbodhi is attended by knowledge of all paths of liberation, among other things, which is I why I pointed out to you earlier that the PP Sūtras include the notion of omniscience about all paths of liberation, comparing and contrasting the inferior omniscience of srāvaka arhat and pratyekabuddha with the superior omniscience of bodhisattva mahāsattvas and ultimately, buddhahood.

The third criteria that Hinayāna insists for a prediction to buddhahood and hence the ability to enter the bodhisattva path is that one must be male, and this is where the Nāga princess' story is relevant.

I could go on, but you should get my drift. The bodhisattva yāna you think the Lotus is criticizing is not the Mahāyāna bodhisattva path, it is the bodhisattva path as it is taught in Hinayāna sūtras, Abhidharma, and so on.
User avatar
tkp67
Posts: 2905
Joined: Sun May 12, 2019 5:42 am

Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by tkp67 »

Then the bodhisattvas who had arrived from other world realms, who were as numerous as the grains of sand in eight Ganges Rivers, stood up in the circle of the assembly, bowed to the Bhagavān with hands together in homage, and said these words:

“Bhagavān, if the Bhagavān will permit us, [F.111.a] after the Tathāgata has passed into nirvāṇa, we too will teach this Dharma teaching in the Sahā world realm. We will read it, write it, and make offerings to it. We shall be dedicated to this Dharma teaching. Bhagavān, teach well this Dharma teaching to us.”
14.­2

The Bhagavān then asked all those bodhisattvas, “Noble ones, why would you need to do this? In this Sahā world realm there are my thousands of bodhisattvas who are as numerous as the grains of sand in sixty Ganges Rivers. Each one of those bodhisattvas has, as followers, thousands of bodhisattvas who are themselves as numerous as the grains of sand in sixty Ganges Rivers, and each of those bodhisattvas has that many followers, too. In the future times, after I have passed into nirvāṇa, they will possess this Dharma teaching and they will teach it.”
14.­3

As soon as the Bhagavān had uttered those words, this entire Sahā world realm cracked apart completely, was rent with fissures, and there came out from within those fissures the bodhisattvas who lived in the Sahā world realm, the many hundreds of thousands of quintillions of bodhisattvas, with their golden bodies and their thirty-two signs of a great being, who dwelled in the element of space beneath the great earth. They had heard the Bhagavān’s words, and came out from under the ground. Each one of these bodhisattvas had a following of bodhisattvas as numerous as the grains of sand in sixty Ganges Rivers, in groups, great groups, along with the teachers of those groups.
https://read.84000.co/translation/toh113.html

There does seem to be a discrimination between the bodhisattva taught before the lotus and those who emerge thereafter.

One in the same? Perhaps but this would still reveal more than one aspect.
Last edited by Hazel on Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Fixed unbalanced tags.
User avatar
Minobu
Posts: 4228
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:57 pm

Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Minobu »

Yo malcolm.
it does not matter if they "know" mahayana.

The practice puts them at centre stage with Buddha.

all the study in the world without that and one is nowhere actually.

Nichiren Shonin , Tien Tai the Great, Lord Nagarjuna Buddha, Venerable Mia-lo Dengyo the Great...all were just part and parcel to theatre and using the great tale to bring Buddha's Omniscience to a living room near you in 2021.

top that .

it's mappo ...it's liberation en masse...

the Gohonzon designed and delivered for mass consumption 800 years later during global village era....unreal...beyound genius...only the Buddha can do this...

Gohonzon is Mahayana Tantra 101 ..complete with all the trimmings...so perfect you do not even have to know...anything..total boob city and it does what it was intended to...can't miss...targets Tathagatagarbha ...brings forth all sorts of Buddha's traits to the fore...
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Malcolm »

tkp67 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:26 pm
Then the bodhisattvas who had arrived from other world realms, who were as numerous as the grains of sand in eight Ganges Rivers, stood up in the circle of the assembly, bowed to the Bhagavān with hands together in homage, and said these words:

“Bhagavān, if the Bhagavān will permit us, [F.111.a] after the Tathāgata has passed into nirvāṇa, we too will teach this Dharma teaching in the Sahā world realm. We will read it, write it, and make offerings to it. We shall be dedicated to this Dharma teaching. Bhagavān, teach well this Dharma teaching to us.”
14.­2

The Bhagavān then asked all those bodhisattvas, “Noble ones, why would you need to do this? In this Sahā world realm there are my thousands of bodhisattvas who are as numerous as the grains of sand in sixty Ganges Rivers. Each one of those bodhisattvas has, as followers, thousands of bodhisattvas who are themselves as numerous as the grains of sand in sixty Ganges Rivers, and each of those bodhisattvas has that many followers, too. In the future times, after I have passed into nirvāṇa, they will possess this Dharma teaching and they will teach it.”
14.­3

As soon as the Bhagavān had uttered those words, this entire Sahā world realm cracked apart completely, was rent with fissures, and there came out from within those fissures the bodhisattvas who lived in the Sahā world realm, the many hundreds of thousands of quintillions of bodhisattvas, with their golden bodies and their thirty-two signs of a great being, who dwelled in the element of space beneath the great earth. They had heard the Bhagavān’s words, and came out from under the ground. Each one of these bodhisattvas had a following of bodhisattvas as numerous as the grains of sand in sixty Ganges Rivers, in groups, great groups, along with the teachers of those groups.
https://read.84000.co/translation/toh113.html

There does seem to be a discrimination between the bodhisattva taught before the lotus and those who emerge thereafter.

One in the same? Perhaps but this would still reveal more than one aspect.
I don’t think this case can be made. The point of that chapter is to set up the next chapter, the lifespan of the tathagata.
User avatar
Minobu
Posts: 4228
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:57 pm

Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Minobu »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:36 pm
tkp67 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:26 pm
Then the bodhisattvas who had arrived from other world realms, who were as numerous as the grains of sand in eight Ganges Rivers, stood up in the circle of the assembly, bowed to the Bhagavān with hands together in homage, and said these words:

“Bhagavān, if the Bhagavān will permit us, [F.111.a] after the Tathāgata has passed into nirvāṇa, we too will teach this Dharma teaching in the Sahā world realm. We will read it, write it, and make offerings to it. We shall be dedicated to this Dharma teaching. Bhagavān, teach well this Dharma teaching to us.”
14.­2

The Bhagavān then asked all those bodhisattvas, “Noble ones, why would you need to do this? In this Sahā world realm there are my thousands of bodhisattvas who are as numerous as the grains of sand in sixty Ganges Rivers. Each one of those bodhisattvas has, as followers, thousands of bodhisattvas who are themselves as numerous as the grains of sand in sixty Ganges Rivers, and each of those bodhisattvas has that many followers, too. In the future times, after I have passed into nirvāṇa, they will possess this Dharma teaching and they will teach it.”
14.­3

As soon as the Bhagavān had uttered those words, this entire Sahā world realm cracked apart completely, was rent with fissures, and there came out from within those fissures the bodhisattvas who lived in the Sahā world realm, the many hundreds of thousands of quintillions of bodhisattvas, with their golden bodies and their thirty-two signs of a great being, who dwelled in the element of space beneath the great earth. They had heard the Bhagavān’s words, and came out from under the ground. Each one of these bodhisattvas had a following of bodhisattvas as numerous as the grains of sand in sixty Ganges Rivers, in groups, great groups, along with the teachers of those groups.
https://read.84000.co/translation/toh113.html

There does seem to be a discrimination between the bodhisattva taught before the lotus and those who emerge thereafter.

One in the same? Perhaps but this would still reveal more than one aspect.
I don’t think this case can be made. The point of that chapter is to set up the next chapter, the lifespan of the tathagata.
you are getting all hung up on tales and stories ....

The play's the thing .
User avatar
Sādhaka
Posts: 1280
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2016 4:39 pm

Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Sādhaka »

Minobu wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:44 pmThe play's the thing .

All the world’s a stage, via Shakes-Spear (King James bible reference), The Truman Show; specific passages in the Vimalakirti-nirdesa-Sutra, and all that.

Just don’t go too crazy and let the View fall into the Conduct (or Conduct fall into the View; I guess it could be stated either way); nah mean?

“Crazy Wisdom” is truly spontaneous, and not something contrived with thought.
Last edited by Sādhaka on Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Malcolm »

Minobu wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:35 pm Yo malcolm.
it does not matter if they "know" mahayana.

The practice puts them at centre stage with Buddha.

all the study in the world without that and one is nowhere actually.

Nichiren Shonin , Tien Tai the Great, Lord Nagarjuna Buddha, Venerable Mia-lo Dengyo the Great...all were just part and parcel to theatre and using the great tale to bring Buddha's Omniscience to a living room near you in 2021.

top that .

it's mappo ...it's liberation en masse...

the Gohonzon designed and delivered for mass consumption 800 years later during global village era....unreal...beyound genius...only the Buddha can do this...

Gohonzon is Mahayana Tantra 101 ..complete with all the trimmings...so perfect you do not even have to know...anything..total boob city and it does what it was intended to...can't miss...targets Tathagatagarbha ...brings forth all sorts of Buddha's traits to the fore...
I admire your enthusiasm.
User avatar
Queequeg
Former staff member
Posts: 14464
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:19 pm
Your claims that the Lotus teaches a so-called buddhayāna which is somehow different than Mahāyāna bodhisattvayāna, is certainly not substantiated by the text itself...

I could go on, but you should get my drift. The bodhisattva yāna you think the Lotus is criticizing is not the Mahāyāna bodhisattva path, it is the bodhisattva path as it is taught in Hinayāna sūtras, Abhidharma, and so on.
Christ.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
User avatar
Hazel
Former staff member
Posts: 2090
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:15 pm
Location: she/her

Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Hazel »


I feel this thread has run its course. At the very least we are so far removed that the title means nothing and likely anyone else ia likely not going to be able to participate/catch-up.
Happy Pride month to my queer dharma siblings!

What do you see when you turn out the lights?
Locked

Return to “Mahāyāna Buddhism”