"Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?

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Queequeg
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Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?

Post by Queequeg »

Nemo wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:42 am Is the Dharma really the Dharma if you practice for 30 years and it produces no realization? Buddha was not a man who taught a religion. He revealed the natural state. In his awakening he thought, "this cannot be taught." The Dharma is a finger pointing at the moon, not the moon. I see very few truly realized practitioners. Would it not be logical to think that what they call Dharma is just a photocopy of a photocopy so smudged and illegible they can no longer find the moon? A cult of Buddha was not the awakened one's intention.
You've said this a few times now.

Disagree. He set up a machine to remember and preserve his instructions trusting there would be those who understood. The ones who don't, he accounted for - the ones who proceed with prasada. He didn't turn those people away. He made space for them in the Sangha. Made simple rules and instructions for them too.

The Buddha was a great leader of people. He was trained to be a general and a king. He understood and accommodated a lot more people than you give him credit for. I think you are selling short those organizational skills and capabilities of harnessing religious impulses in people to keep the teaching flowing.

The picture you draw is of a snobby yogi wannabe lacking compassion for others. That guy would have wandered up to the Himavat and disappeared into the forest and you never would have heard the name Gautama.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
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Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?

Post by Malcolm »

Nemo wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:42 am Is the Dharma really the Dharma if you practice for 30 years and it produces no realization?
We don’t practice for this life. We practice for the next life.

Realization is a not campaign badge one can show others. It’s undetectable by ordinary people. The only thing ordinary people can observe is the extraordinary compassion of realized people.
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Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?

Post by Bristollad »

muni wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 10:18 am I am now wondering for laundry, what is primacy the water or the soap.
Well, it's clearly the dirt, isn't it!? Otherwise, the laundry wouldn't need doing...
:rolling:
The antidote—to be free from the suffering of samsara—you need to be free from delusion and karma; you need to be free from ignorance, the root of samsara. So you need to meditate on emptiness. That is what you need. Lama Zopa Rinpoche
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Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?

Post by muni »

Bristollad wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:22 pm
muni wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 10:18 am I am now wondering for laundry, what is primacy the water or the soap.
Well, it's clearly the dirt, isn't it!? Otherwise, the laundry wouldn't need doing...
:rolling:
:jumping:
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Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?

Post by Aemilius »

TharpaChodron wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:03 am Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Egg, because egg evolved in reptiles etc before the birds evolved.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:07 pm
Nemo wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:42 am Is the Dharma really the Dharma if you practice for 30 years and it produces no realization?
We don’t practice for this life. We practice for the next life.

Realization is a not campaign badge one can show others. It’s undetectable by ordinary people. The only thing ordinary people can observe is the extraordinary compassion of realized people.
AVOIDING THE TEN FAULTS

Master Padma said: When practicing the Dharma, you must make sure not to fall into the ten faults.

The lady asked: What are these ten faults?

The master said: Although you may practice meditation, if it does not become a remedy against your disturbing emotions and thoughts, you have the fault of the oral instructions not being made effective.

Although you may have recognized your mind, if it does not liberate your consciousness free from partiality, you have the fault of not having met with the special instruction.

Although you may have strong devotion, if you do not receive the blessings, you have the fault of not having connected with an accomplished master.

Although you may exert yourself with great effort, if your practice does not progress, you have the fault of your mind not being fully purified.

If you feel tired when engaging in spiritual practice, you have the fault of not having recognized the natural state of awareness.

Although you practice, if your mind is still scattered, you have the fault of not having gained confidence in meditation.

If experience does not arise directly in your state of mind, you have the fault of having only strayed into Samatha.

If the strength of awareness does not arise in your being, you have the fault of not knowing how to take appearances as aids to the path.

If you find it difficult to cut through your attachment to disturbing emotions, you have the fault of not knowing how to take the five poisons as the path.

If you cannot cope with suffering and difficulties, you have the fault of not knowing how to turn your mind away from samsãra.

In any case, when you claim to practice the Dharma while being full of faults within is there any chance to ever have good circumstances?

—-Dakini Teachings -
Rangjung Yeshe Publications.
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Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?

Post by Malcolm »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:43 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:07 pm
Nemo wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:42 am Is the Dharma really the Dharma if you practice for 30 years and it produces no realization?
We don’t practice for this life. We practice for the next life.

Realization is a not campaign badge one can show others. It’s undetectable by ordinary people. The only thing ordinary people can observe is the extraordinary compassion of realized people.
AVOIDING THE TEN FAULTS

Master Padma said: When practicing the Dharma, you must make sure not to fall into the ten faults.

The lady asked: What are these ten faults?

The master said: Although you may practice meditation, if it does not become a remedy against your disturbing emotions and thoughts, you have the fault of the oral instructions not being made effective.

Although you may have recognized your mind, if it does not liberate your consciousness free from partiality, you have the fault of not having met with the special instruction.

Although you may have strong devotion, if you do not receive the blessings, you have the fault of not having connected with an accomplished master.

Although you may exert yourself with great effort, if your practice does not progress, you have the fault of your mind not being fully purified.

If you feel tired when engaging in spiritual practice, you have the fault of not having recognized the natural state of awareness.

Although you practice, if your mind is still scattered, you have the fault of not having gained confidence in meditation.

If experience does not arise directly in your state of mind, you have the fault of having only strayed into Samatha.

If the strength of awareness does not arise in your being, you have the fault of not knowing how to take appearances as aids to the path.

If you find it difficult to cut through your attachment to disturbing emotions, you have the fault of not knowing how to take the five poisons as the path.

If you cannot cope with suffering and difficulties, you have the fault of not knowing how to turn your mind away from samsãra.

In any case, when you claim to practice the Dharma while being full of faults within is there any chance to ever have good circumstances?

—-Dakini Teachings -
Rangjung Yeshe Publications.
On the other hand, if Dharma is only for perfect, faultless people, it is of no value.
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Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?

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Nemo wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:42 am Is the Dharma really the Dharma if you practice for 30 years and it produces no realization? Buddha was not a man who taught a religion. He revealed the natural state. In his awakening he thought, "this cannot be taught." The Dharma is a finger pointing at the moon, not the moon. I see very few truly realized practitioners. Would it not be logical to think that what they call Dharma is just a photocopy of a photocopy so smudged and illegible they can no longer find the moon? A cult of Buddha was not the awakened one's intention.
People fail to practice what they preach all the time, it's practically policy with us. It doesn't mean the teachings are wrong, it just means this is samsara and that most of us objectively fail to practice our religion, including the more egregious examples.

Buddhism can be a vehicle for The Dharma, but in the end Buddhism itself exists in time, space and circumstances is a collection of religious practices and institutions, and as such it will always contain a certain amount of this kind of thing, it is just how samsara is, not remotely unique.

I like to think about the Dog's Tooth story, the irony is that even with masters who turn out to be whatever, just proper religionists with little realization, somewhere in there there are genuine students whose devotion and practice still enabled them to touch the real thing, even if they were just venerating a dog's tooth.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?

Post by Nemo »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:07 pm
Nemo wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:42 am Is the Dharma really the Dharma if you practice for 30 years and it produces no realization?
We don’t practice for this life. We practice for the next life.

Realization is a not campaign badge one can show others. It’s undetectable by ordinary people. The only thing ordinary people can observe is the extraordinary compassion of realized people.
That sounds like theism, at least in practice. Worship the giant space Father or Mother by following all the rules and they will reward you in the afterlife. How is your faith different from any of the 1000 other kooky cults out there?(real question, not rhetoric.)
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Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Nemo wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:44 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:07 pm
Nemo wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:42 am Is the Dharma really the Dharma if you practice for 30 years and it produces no realization?
We don’t practice for this life. We practice for the next life.

Realization is a not campaign badge one can show others. It’s undetectable by ordinary people. The only thing ordinary people can observe is the extraordinary compassion of realized people.
That sounds like theism, at least in practice. Worship the giant space Father or Mother by following all the rules and they will reward you in the afterlife. How is your faith different from any of the 1000 other kooky cults out there?(real question, not rhetoric.)
How can anyone answer such a question definitively?

It relies on these broad, sweeping assumptions and comparisons. It’s meaningless. You don’t need people here to tell you or others how to develop faith really, I think you already know those answers, don’t you?

All the whataboutism, comparisons etc. are just part of the same game you are taking issue with. If you think Dharma is the real deal then you already know how to understand these things.

Personal crises might stand in the way, but it seems to me you being disingenuous-to yourself- by dwelling on these kinds of questions.

Being disappointed in people and institutions sucks, I think it’s something we contend with perpetually, really. Should it really come as such a surprise though?
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
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Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?

Post by Malcolm »

Nemo wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:44 pm
That sounds like theism, at least in practice. Worship the giant space Father or Mother by following all the rules and they will reward you in the afterlife. How is your faith different from any of the 1000 other kooky cults out there?(real question, not rhetoric.)
No, it sounds like Buddhadharma.

No one rewards one for anything. When it is said one practices for the next life, it means one has the presence of mind to understand that one may not achieve buddhahood in this life.

Karma is not an imposed rule, and there is no person handing out rewards for behaving in a virtuous manner or punishments for behaving nonvirtuously.

There is no space father or mother, no rules, and no afterlife in which to receive a reward. The next life is not an "afterlife," it is the next life after this one, hopefully as a human being able to meet and practice the dharma.
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Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Nemo wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:44 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:07 pm
Nemo wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:42 am Is the Dharma really the Dharma if you practice for 30 years and it produces no realization?
We don’t practice for this life. We practice for the next life.

Realization is a not campaign badge one can show others. It’s undetectable by ordinary people. The only thing ordinary people can observe is the extraordinary compassion of realized people.
That sounds like theism, at least in practice. Worship the giant space Father or Mother by following all the rules and they will reward you in the afterlife. How is your faith different from any of the 1000 other kooky cults out there?(real question, not rhetoric.)
The first question has to do with practicing 30 years without realization. That in itself negates the basic principle of cause and effect. Realization is the result of practice. But many people have the idea that realization is all or nothing, like getting hit by lightning. Realization occurs to practitioners all the time. Maybe just a little bit, now and then, but it’s not all that rare or that big of a deal. No rarer than songwriters finding the right notes after struggling with a tune, or mathematicians finally solving an equation. There are a lot of “oh yeah!” moments for people who seriously devote themselves to practice (which 30 years sounds like).

Malcolm’s reply to that comment is also very realistic. We practice to move ourselves forward from lifetime to lifetime. Even highly realized teachers practice.
Actually, everything you think is something you practice. Thoughts aren’t just static things. If you lose your temper for 30 seconds, that’s 30 seconds that you practiced losing your temper. So, realized teachers are practicing all the time. But what they are practicing, is realization.

So, it’s not like the theistic idea of the afterlife at all. We practice for realizations in this life, which, like practicing anything, music, sports, a foreign language, whatever, eventually becomes effortless, your natural way of going or doing. It’s not a matter of getting a reward. Rewards are static. Trophies gather dust. The state of awakening is constant and dynamic, perpetually unfolding, you might say radiant. It’s like that short moment of transition between sleep and waking up in the morning, except it doesn’t stop. That’s my understanding, anyhow.
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Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:09 pm The state of awakening is constant and dynamic, perpetually unfolding, you might say radiant. It’s like that short moment of transition between sleep and waking up in the morning, except it doesn’t stop. That’s my understanding, anyhow.
Adding to that, the thing to keep in mind is that the awakened state is mind’s natural state. There nothing you “get” that you didn’t already have.
If you think about a motor, like a fan motor, that just keeps spinning night and day, that’s sort of an analogy to realized awakened mind.
But because of our samsaric clinging sand other habitual patterns, we keep throwing grit into the gears and making the motor stop.
Dharma practice is the practice of not throwing grit into the machine. That, and keeping it oiled when needed. That’s really all it is.
EMPTIFUL.
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Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?

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Nemo wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:42 am Is the Dharma really the Dharma if you practice for 30 years and it produces no realization? Buddha was not a man who taught a religion. He revealed the natural state. In his awakening he thought, "this cannot be taught." The Dharma is a finger pointing at the moon, not the moon. I see very few truly realized practitioners. Would it not be logical to think that what they call Dharma is just a photocopy of a photocopy so smudged and illegible they can no longer find the moon? A cult of Buddha was not the awakened one's intention.
Yes, it really is the Dharma. If someone practices for 30 years and has no realization, maybe they are doing it all wrong. Perhaps full of ego, fear and loathing a la Hunter S. Thompson. On the other hand, most genuine practitioners or yogis are a mix of karmic, samsaric habits which they are working on, and the slow development of enlightened qualities, so 30 years is not much time to become “Enlightened.” The most “realized” probably aren’t on our radar, they’re unassuming and authentic.
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Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

TharpaChodron wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 2:43 am
Nemo wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:42 am Is the Dharma really the Dharma if you practice for 30 years and it produces no realization? Buddha was not a man who taught a religion. He revealed the natural state. In his awakening he thought, "this cannot be taught." The Dharma is a finger pointing at the moon, not the moon. I see very few truly realized practitioners. Would it not be logical to think that what they call Dharma is just a photocopy of a photocopy so smudged and illegible they can no longer find the moon? A cult of Buddha was not the awakened one's intention.
Yes, it really is the Dharma. If someone practices for 30 years and has no realization, maybe they are doing it all wrong. Perhaps full of ego, fear and loathing a la Hunter S. Thompson. On the other hand, most genuine practitioners or yogis are a mix of karmic, samsaric habits which they are working on, and the slow development of enlightened qualities, so 30 years is not much time to become “Enlightened.” The most “realized” probably aren’t on our radar, they’re unassuming and authentic.
...and if you don’t notice anything after 10 years, you’ll either stick with it for whatever reason, or take some different path in life.

And if, ten years after that, you still don’t notice anything, then it should be obvious that you will have really already stopped putting any effort into it anyway.

But if you’ve been studying, meditating, practicing for 30 years, you’ll know it, and you’ll be looking forward to 40.
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Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?

Post by Budai »

Giving the Buddha Primacy, why do we take refuge in the one Gautama Buddha and call the rest of the Buddhas His Sangha, even though they are Buddhas as well?
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Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?

Post by Malcolm »

Könchok Chödrak wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 8:26 pm Giving the Buddha Primacy, why do we take refuge in the one Gautama Buddha and call the rest of the Buddhas His Sangha, even though they are Buddhas as well?
What we really go for refuge to is the dharmakāya, a buddha's realization.

We don't refer to the other Buddhas besides Śākyamuni Buddha as his Sangha, since they all have the same realization. There are some schools that seek to elevate Śākyamuni, and consider all other buddhas to be emanations of the former, but this is an erroneous understanding.
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Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?

Post by narhwal90 »

If you read the 84000 and BDK translations of the Lotus Sutra you will find the Buddha expounds- that is actual word, 'preach' does not appear. I dont have my Watson translation handy, so do t know what its language is.
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Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?

Post by Malcolm »

Könchok Chödrak wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:38 am it is so in the Lotus Sutra, the Sutra by which Buddhas become Enlightened.
Buddhas do not attain awakening by relying on words.
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Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?

Post by Budai »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:13 pm
Könchok Chödrak wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:38 am it is so in the Lotus Sutra, the Sutra by which Buddhas become Enlightened.
Buddhas do not attain awakening by relying on words.
Yes I agree that it is not a necessity, but talking to your teacher about Nibbana and Buddhahood surely helps one understand the idea of what the factors are that get one there. Another method of explaining what the word “preach” means to me is “expound”, a dialogue based on the teachings, and since I trust Watson is someone who is devoted to the Lotus Sutra because He has transcribed it, which is such a precious accomplishment, and in it’s original meanings too, I don’t have any reason to not trust Him on His word usage. It’s like telling a Buddha or Bodhisattva or even voice-hearer not to talk about the Dharma with others who may be interested in Buddhism. If a certain disciple needs words to become Enlightened, if that is what His or Her Bodhicitta is thirsting for, then perhaps it is okay to use many words over a long period of time to explain to them the importance of certain Buddhist factors.

This is just the way I see it. Malcolm is right too, and so is Ayu more than anything, but I think me holding into my SGI Burton Watson Lotus Sutra and Nichiren Buddhism the way I have learned it and have been taught is important, only because I have found it has worked in application.

Nam Myoho Renge Kyo.

Namaste.
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