My biggest Mahayana question

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Inedible
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My biggest Mahayana question

Post by Inedible »

The one biggest thing I have never understood about the Mahayana is that it seems to require giving to others before having. Not just Enlightenment itself, but also the things which bring temporary happiness. As a practical matter, I have found that when I try to share my interests in meditation and lucid dreaming and mindfulness with others that they quickly realize I'm not getting the results for myself. They always end up deciding they don't have time for such things. And materially speaking I'm a complete failure. I'm lucky to have any money five days after payday. But being in the Mahayana seems to be about helping others to reach the other shore and the first of the Paramitas is Dana. As a practical matter how do you give what you don't have? People do tend to notice, and they don't tend to be very receptive to it.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: My biggest Mahayana question

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

When another person just needs someone to talk to, to listen to them, if you have the opportunity to be that person, and can give them that, it is better than just about anything.
If you can give time to a worthy endeavor, that’s great too.
Generosity can be many types.

If you are just sharing your own trip with others,
is that generosity
or do you expect something from it?
If you don’t expect anything, then their reaction shouldn’t matter at all, should it?
If you are expecting some kind of response from others, then it’s not generosity,
it’s an exchange. Isn’t it?
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Re: My biggest Mahayana question

Post by Malcolm »

Inedible wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 1:19 pm The one biggest thing I have never understood about the Mahayana is that it seems to require giving to others before having. Not just Enlightenment itself, but also the things which bring temporary happiness. As a practical matter, I have found that when I try to share my interests in meditation and lucid dreaming and mindfulness with others that they quickly realize I'm not getting the results for myself. They always end up deciding they don't have time for such things. And materially speaking I'm a complete failure. I'm lucky to have any money five days after payday. But being in the Mahayana seems to be about helping others to reach the other shore and the first of the Paramitas is Dana. As a practical matter how do you give what you don't have? People do tend to notice, and they don't tend to be very receptive to it.
Shantideva states that bodhisattvas first duty is to preserve themselves, so that they may help others.

It is also important to understand it is the wish to of help to others that is most important. The Buddha was incapable of relieving the poverty of all beings, but nevertheless he perfected generosity anyway.Why? Because he wished all sentient beings to have whatever is was they needed and wanted.
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Re: My biggest Mahayana question

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Inedible wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 1:19 pm The one biggest thing I have never understood about the Mahayana is that it seems to require giving to others before having...
FWIW, from Patrul Rinpoche: https://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-ma ... iderations

"If something would harm you but help others, then act in accordance with your situation. If you are a beginner, the main thing is to protect yourself from harm. Like the shoot of a medicinal plant, protecting yourself from harm will be the source of benefit to others. If you are a bodhisattva at the stage of "devoted conduct", weigh up the priorities. From the point of obtaining the bodhisattva levels onwards, the main thing is to act solely for others' benefit."

Similarly, Jigme Lingpa says that for beginner Bodhisattvas it is important to guard the precepts and make sure that the root of our connection with the Dharma is maintained, more or less, rather than trying to overextend ourselves with activity for others. Or something along those lines, paraphrased.
“Whoever wants to find the wisdom beyond intellect without praying to his guru is like someone waiting for the sun to shine in a cave facing the north. He will never realize appearances and his mind to be one.”
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
Inedible
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Re: My biggest Mahayana question

Post by Inedible »

Maybe I wasn't being clear enough when I wrote earlier. I'll have to give it some more thought and try again.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: My biggest Mahayana question

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

During a group teaching by my first lama, the topic of generosity (Dana Paramita) came up and someone asked whether one should “give until it hurts” which is a notion somewhat common in the west, perhaps derived from some Protestant ethics or something. And the teacher replied that no, that’s not the case in Buddhism. Even if you have a lot of money, or whether you give either a little or a lot, that is totally beside the point. To give any amount to help others, with the right motivation, without attachment, without hope of ‘karmic payback’ or praise from others, of without it conjuring the self-idea of “I’m being so generous!”
That will bring you more merit than giving a million dollars and making a big deal of it.

On Tibetan Buddhist altars (shrines) at home, it is traditional to make an offering of seven or eight little bowls of water each morning. Each Bowl of water symbolizes a different item of offering.
Water is (in most places) easy enough to get. At the same time, it is more valuable than gold in terms of sustaining life.
You can practice generosity in many ways.
EMPTIFUL.
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mechashivaz
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Re: My biggest Mahayana question

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Inedible wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 1:19 pm The one biggest thing I have never understood about the Mahayana is that it seems to require giving to others before having. Not just Enlightenment itself, but also the things which bring temporary happiness. As a practical matter, I have found that when I try to share my interests in meditation and lucid dreaming and mindfulness with others that they quickly realize I'm not getting the results for myself. They always end up deciding they don't have time for such things. And materially speaking I'm a complete failure. I'm lucky to have any money five days after payday. But being in the Mahayana seems to be about helping others to reach the other shore and the first of the Paramitas is Dana. As a practical matter how do you give what you don't have? People do tend to notice, and they don't tend to be very receptive to it.
Not necessarily, there are three types of bodhisattva :

" When generating bodhicitta, three levels of courage can be distinguished: the courage of a king, the courage of a boatman, and the courage of a shepherd. What is meant by the courage of a king? A king’s first priorities are to overcome all his rivals, to promote those who support him, and to proclaim himself sovereign. Only once these aims have been secured does he turn to the care of his subjects. Similarly, the wish to attain Buddhahood for oneself first and then to bring others to Buddhahood subsequently is called the king’s way of generating bodhicitta. This is the wish: “May I be liberated from suffering and obtain the level of perfect enlightenment.”

What is meant by the courage of a boatman? A boatman aims to arrive on the other shore at the same time as all of his passengers. Likewise, the wish to achieve Buddhahood for oneself and all beings simultaneously is known as the boatman’s way of generating bodhicitta. This is the wish: “May I liberate myself and all sentient beings from suffering and obtain the level of perfect enlightenment.”

What is meant by the courage of a shepherd? A shepherd drives his sheep in front of him, making sure that they find grass and water, and are not attacked by wild beasts. He himself follows behind. In the same way, wishing to establish all beings of the three realms on the level of perfect enlightenment before attaining perfect enlightenment for oneself is known as the shepherd’s way of generating bodhicitta, or the incomparable way of generating bodhicitta. This is the wish: “May I liberate all sentient beings from their suffering and establish them on the level of perfect enlightenment.”
http://www.dzogchenlineage.org/kcrbcaintro.html "
Inedible
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Re: My biggest Mahayana question

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I still haven't found a clearer way to ask. How do you give something if you don't have it yet?
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Re: My biggest Mahayana question

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Inedible wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 1:56 pm I still haven't found a clearer way to ask. How do you give something if you don't have it yet?
You can try wishing for others to have it.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

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zerwe
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Re: My biggest Mahayana question

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Inedible wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 1:56 pm I still haven't found a clearer way to ask. How do you give something if you don't have it yet?
Here, I am sure I will stumble all over myself, but---again, as Malcom said, what takes place in your mind while you practice generosity is the most important thing. Of great importance is focusing on how the action, object, and agent are empty of inherent existence. On the more coarse level; you give what you are able to at the particular level of ability of where you are in your practice. You increase this until you are at level of truly practicing the perfection of generosity.

Shaun :namaste:
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Sādhaka
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Re: My biggest Mahayana question

Post by Sādhaka »

Inedible wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 1:56 pm I still haven't found a clearer way to ask. How do you give something if you don't have it yet?

It looks like your question has been answered to me.

With the King, Oarsman, Shepherd, etc.

Some texts even imply that there’s not in a practical sense anything you can do to actually help sentient beings until reaching the First Bhumi.

Until then, you just keep the Bodhicitta aspiration & intention as part of your Mahayana practice.

About the only concrete thing one can do until that point, is get a hold of one or more of the Five or Six Liberations described in the Bardo texts, that are for giving sentient beings a positive cause for having a connection to the Dharma, that they will begin to practice at least in a future lifetime.
Last edited by Sādhaka on Sat May 29, 2021 3:46 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: My biggest Mahayana question

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Inedible wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 1:56 pm I still haven't found a clearer way to ask. How do you give something if you don't have it yet?
Anything that you can’t take with you when you die, you only “have” in the figurative sense to begin with anyway. And that’s pretty much everything. None of really “has” anything. We merely control where things go, if we can. Ok this way, you dilemma isn’t much different than that of the person who might “have” a great deal in terms of wealth or resources.

The only things we really possess, meaning that nobody can take them from us, are virtues such as honesty.
EMPTIFUL.
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Re: My biggest Mahayana question

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Inedible wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 1:56 pm I still haven't found a clearer way to ask. How do you give something if you don't have it yet?
Try it. Try offering a pleasant sight or scent to the buddhas. Maybe light a candle if you have one, offering the light. Surely at some point in your life you have given something and know how that feels, what the emotional and mental process is like. Just do that.

This was a good episode of the Zen Studies Podcast on giving: https://zenstudiespodcast.com/dogens-bo ... -2-giving/

Feel free to watch the previous episode for context, or not.
Happy Pride month to my queer dharma siblings!

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Re: My biggest Mahayana question

Post by Caoimhghín »

Inedible wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 1:19 pmThe one biggest thing I have never understood about the Mahayana is that it seems to require giving to others before having.
People like to jump the gun.

Some people take the idea of "helping others to achieve awakening" to absolve them of the responsibility to practice themselves, to achieve a fruit/fruition, perhaps even "the fruit," of their bodhisattvayana practice. Said fruit would make the practitioner a better expounder of the Dharma, a more qualified one, a superior one, thus making themselves extraordinarily more useful to those they wish to help. I think that there is a misplaced fear of "accidentally becoming an Arhat," because Arhats actually achieve their goals in this life. An Arya Bodhisattva on the irreversible grounds is equivalent to or greater than an Arhat. Knowing this, Mahayanikas should strive for the irreversible grounds, knowing that proper Mahayana practice does not end up with one "accidentally" becoming an Arhat. It is actually impossible to "accidentally" become an Arhat. It is an incoherent proposal. It is, however, possible to fall from the Mahayana path "accidentally."
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
Inedible
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Re: My biggest Mahayana question

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Wanting to help and not being able to is painful. And every day I go out there are so many people I interact with who need help now. Some of them are really good at appearing to be victims, so as to induce guilt and pity. There used to be a Mahayana group locally that I connected with when I moved to the city I live in. It fell apart as individuals succumbed to depression and dropped out. The usual reason was that the more they intensified the wish to help others, the more they came face to face with not being able to help anyone. Including themselves. Worse, the pain of wanting to help and not being able easily turns into resentment.

There are a lot of good answers here. Thank you. I will read them again a few times and try to apply them. That is usually how I see if I really understood something as well as I felt like I did while just reading.
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Re: My biggest Mahayana question

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Inedible wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 1:56 pm I still haven't found a clearer way to ask. How do you give something if you don't have it yet?
Either by getting it yourself, so that you can give it, like enlightenment. Or, by just giving what you do have. Ideally both. The first of the Paramitas is Dana but dana is not just about money. For example, if someone volunteers at a homeless shelter or even an animal shelter cleaning up poop, that's certainly practicing dana. Dana could also just be helping the old lady down the stairs. That's all dana. You don't have to give what you don't have in order to practice dana.
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Re: My biggest Mahayana question

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Inedible wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 1:19 pm As a practical matter, I have found that when I try to share my interests in meditation and lucid dreaming and mindfulness with others that they quickly realize I'm not getting the results for myself. They always end up deciding they don't have time for such things.
They seem like reasonable people.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: My biggest Mahayana question

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Inedible wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 1:19 pm The one biggest thing I have never understood about the Mahayana is that it seems to require giving to others before having. Not just Enlightenment itself, but also the things which bring temporary happiness. As a practical matter, I have found that when I try to share my interests in meditation and lucid dreaming and mindfulness with others that they quickly realize I'm not getting the results for myself. They always end up deciding they don't have time for such things. And materially speaking I'm a complete failure. I'm lucky to have any money five days after payday. But being in the Mahayana seems to be about helping others to reach the other shore and the first of the Paramitas is Dana. As a practical matter how do you give what you don't have? People do tend to notice, and they don't tend to be very receptive to it.
It's impossible to give what you don't have. What would you be giving? Perhaps like offering someone a bag as a birthday present, but when they look there's nothing inside. Some gift!

If we want to teach something or at least share our experience or insights, we have to have something in the first place. So we cultivate... If we want to offer a gift of meditation, I think people would listen more if they see how it's touched our own lives. Every now and then the depth of our practice can be perceived in our sharing.

When offering money to someone on the street, why not offer them a dollar or two instead of a couple pennies? They say practice is like saving up your money in a bank. The wealthier we become, the more we are able to share with others.
Last edited by SilenceMonkey on Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
Inedible
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Re: My biggest Mahayana question

Post by Inedible »

If they hadn't told me they were interested, I wouldn't have tried to share resources with them.
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Re: My biggest Mahayana question

Post by SilenceMonkey »

It could also be that the way you're sharing is giving people a vibe you don't intend to give off. It's very common when people share about things they love, but their own mind's habit patterns change the taste of that good feeling and inspiration. So meditation and Dharma practice can help us purify these negativities in us. We'll become more loving and happy people, with qualities that are very attractive and resonant for people.

Another thing to consider is that some people may just be more open to these things than others. And sometimes it's about timing and phrasing, how to catch someone's fancy by saying words that will leave an impression. But sometimes you'll want to talk about something like lucid dreaming, but the other person won't be in the mood to hear about it.

Sensitivity is the key.
Last edited by SilenceMonkey on Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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