So are Sutras really from the Buddha, or just fiction

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Minobu
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Re: So are Sutras really from the Buddha, or just fiction

Post by Minobu »

Queequeg wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 4:33 pm
Minobu wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 3:54 pm the question is
Did Buddha give us the Sutras or are they just man made stories by common mortals.
Because I have a certain working definition of Buddha, I can give you an unqualified, "Yes", in answer to that query.
So are the Sutras just another form of control ?
Yes. Control that is aimed at liberating you.
so it's how one defines Buddha?
Then everything will be ok.
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Minobu
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Re: So are Sutras really from the Buddha, or just fiction

Post by Minobu »

in other words QQ back to the Dharmakaya aspect of how they got there...without faith it's all down the tubes.
Malcolm
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Re: So are Sutras really from the Buddha, or just fiction

Post by Malcolm »

Sādhaka wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 4:22 pm
Dorje Sempa Namkha Che, Chögyal Namkhai Norbu’s Introduction to his Oral Commentary wrote: https://Melong.com

“When we follow a buddhist teaching it is important to know that Buddha’s teaching is not only the oral teaching he gave in India. Buddha is omniscient, a totally enlightened being having many possibilities to communicate; so the Buddhist teaching has many aspects, not only what was taught in India. In Tibet we have the collection of all the teachings of Buddha called Kangyur. Ka means word of Buddha, gyur means translated in ancient times from Sanskrit to Tibetan. The Kangyur comprises 108 volumes. It does not mean that all these were taught in India at Bodhgaya or somewhere else as oral teachings. In sacred places of India, like Rajghir at Vulture Peak, Buddha taught Mahayana, but most Mahayana teachings are not oral teachings developed in India...
Word.
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Re: So are Sutras really from the Buddha, or just fiction

Post by Queequeg »

Shhhhh.

Its all true. Everything will be fine.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Minobu
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Re: So are Sutras really from the Buddha, or just fiction

Post by Minobu »

Malcolm wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 4:57 pm
Sādhaka wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 4:22 pm
Dorje Sempa Namkha Che, Chögyal Namkhai Norbu’s Introduction to his Oral Commentary wrote: https://Melong.com

“When we follow a buddhist teaching it is important to know that Buddha’s teaching is not only the oral teaching he gave in India. Buddha is omniscient, a totally enlightened being having many possibilities to communicate; so the Buddhist teaching has many aspects, not only what was taught in India. In Tibet we have the collection of all the teachings of Buddha called Kangyur. Ka means word of Buddha, gyur means translated in ancient times from Sanskrit to Tibetan. The Kangyur comprises 108 volumes. It does not mean that all these were taught in India at Bodhgaya or somewhere else as oral teachings. In sacred places of India, like Rajghir at Vulture Peak, Buddha taught Mahayana, but most Mahayana teachings are not oral teachings developed in India...
Word.

so the below only counts as long as it's non tibetan ? Or as long as it comes from a Dzogchen guy
Malcolm wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 4:05 pm
Minobu wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 3:54 pm
the question is
Did Buddha give us the Sutras or are they just man made stories by common mortals.

You will never find a satisfactory answer to that question. All you will find are different stories competing for your attention.
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Re: So are Sutras really from the Buddha, or just fiction

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Removed post containing excessive quotation.
Malcolm
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Re: So are Sutras really from the Buddha, or just fiction

Post by Malcolm »

Minobu wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 5:21 pm
so the below only counts as long as it's non tibetan ? Or as long as it comes from a Dzogchen guy
That Dzogchen guy happens to be my guru. But still, it is just a story.
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Re: So are Sutras really from the Buddha, or just fiction

Post by Zenny »

The sutra were written well after the buddha. And in different languages,countries and by different authors. Different sutras are not accepted by different groups.
Then we get onto the politics and dogmas of the varying sects and who decides what gets written and emphasised.
The essential message is there from oral tradition,and glimpses can be seen in the sutras,plus a boat load of upaya.
To think that the sutras are direct from the buddha is extremely naive.
If the buddha really thought books were that important don't you think he would have written one?
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Minobu
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Re: So are Sutras really from the Buddha, or just fiction

Post by Minobu »

Malcolm wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 5:41 pm
Minobu wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 5:21 pm
so the below only counts as long as it's non tibetan ? Or as long as it comes from a Dzogchen guy
That Dzogchen guy happens to be my guru. But still, it is just a story.
i did not mean for it to sound disrespectful.
sorry if i offended you.
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Re: So are Sutras really from the Buddha, or just fiction

Post by Malcolm »

Minobu wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 8:00 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 5:41 pm
Minobu wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 5:21 pm
so the below only counts as long as it's non tibetan ? Or as long as it comes from a Dzogchen guy
That Dzogchen guy happens to be my guru. But still, it is just a story.
i did not mean for it to sound disrespectful.
sorry if i offended you.
No, you did not offend me at all. What I am saying is that we cannot verify anything. We either accept this or that claim or not. No one can prove anything.

For example, before his post was deleted in this thread, Illaraza made the absurd and indefensible claim that Nichiren's Buddhism was the only valid path. This is just a story of which he has convinced himself. Based on what? Based on a story he believes for which he has no proof.
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Minobu
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Re: So are Sutras really from the Buddha, or just fiction

Post by Minobu »

Malcolm wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 8:27 pm
Minobu wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 8:00 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 5:41 pm

That Dzogchen guy happens to be my guru. But still, it is just a story.
i did not mean for it to sound disrespectful.
sorry if i offended you.
No, you did not offend me at all. What I am saying is that we cannot verify anything. We either accept this or that claim or not. No one can prove anything.

For example, before his post was deleted in this thread, Illaraza made the absurd and indefensible claim that Nichiren's Buddhism was the only valid path. This is just a story of which he has convinced himself. Based on what? Based on a story he believes for which he has no proof.
I have to agree with you in the sense all this stuff come under the heading of faith.

Now I have had some extraordinary things happen with Buddha Goddess Tara as i posted somewhere so , I know She is for Real.

Then the first night i was introduced to the gakki early in the 70's they took us to the then cultural centre and , this was my intro to Buddhism .

45 minutes in and like I had this overwhelming feeling of coming home after a long vacation.

three days later with a sort of everyday practice for a beginner i woke up and almost all my acne was gone.
I suffered through high school with the worse case of pus bobs on the planet..

We were moving to california ,which did not happen the old man collapsed in New Orleans and we went to houston Mayo clinic and found out he had Waldenstrom's macro globulin anaemia ..any way before the trip i got prescribed a bunch of acme meds and when filling out this enormous script the pharmacy asked Pa "doesn't the kid's face show through at all " lol...his gangster friends said i jerked off too much..

the whole thing was a nightmare.
so with in a week i had a clear complexion,.

My mom started to chant and her eczema which she always had , disappeared in a few days..And as you know eventually me old man's bone marrow came back to life..

so yeah i know this practice has merit.

that being said I don't really enjoy the whole telling people it's the only way and it;s the best way and don't mix this with that...

I really like Illarraza , the guy lives on dialysis for years and they recently took out a kidney...i email him cause he does know this buddhism..

I'm trying to get him to lighten up lol...if he could see what i am about to tell you....

The best thing that ever happened to me for this sort of thing was Kalden Geshe La...


one day i bought him some soup on one of his toronto weekend retreat deals..

I loved this man ..still do ...awesome guy. He passed ..

so like i wanted to impress him with my knowledge of the Lotus Sutra.LOL I was Trying to explain it to him LOL!!!!.and I can still see his face and hands when he commented "The Lotus Sutra is really high up there "

Then he said ...and this changed my life...."Do you want to know what is the highest teaching ?"

I'm like floored...here it comes i thought ..oh man finally..

" It's what the Lotus Sutra is really all about "

so now i'm like ...crappin razor blades ...

"The highest teaching is ....( He pauses) ...there is no highest teaching "

"The Lotus Sutra is about what ever teaching is suited for you at the time ....is the Highest Teaching. "


It freed me totally.
Malcolm
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Re: So are Sutras really from the Buddha, or just fiction

Post by Malcolm »

Minobu wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 11:30 pm
Now I have had some extraordinary things happen with Buddha Goddess Tara
I recommend Tara practice regularly. I also practice Tara from time to time.
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Re: So are Sutras really from the Buddha, or just fiction

Post by Budai »

Why do you believe certain things you can’t easily explain but not others? And another question, do you believe that your connection to the Dharmakaya with your Buddha-Nature gives you access to an Omniscient truth? Perhaps in meditation you can seek what you are looking for..
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Re: So are Sutras really from the Buddha, or just fiction

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

I think a lot of this...
what would you call it... doubt?
...about the sutras arises (for those in whom the ‘doubt’ arises) because of two reasons.

First, we are accustomed to history being preserved and presented in a “factual” manner (even when the ‘facts’ are biased or wrong) which means both a style of writing or telling that simply was not the style in India 2500 years ago, or even during the reign of King Ashoka, some 700 years later.

There is a lot of flowery embellishment and, by today’s standards, pretty over-the top descriptions of events in Mahayana sutras, with hundreds of thousands of Bodhisattvas here and hundreds of Buddhas there (let’s name all of them, by the way!) but gawsh darn it, “something as important as Buddha giving a lecture really demands as much fanfare as you can pack into the first ten pages of introduction!” It’s like the thanksgiving parade where all the floats and marching bands are a warm-up to remind you of how important Santa is.

But there is another aspect to consider, which is when we ask if these deities are ‘real’ of not, we are basically asking, “Are they real in the same sense that you and I are real?” ...and of course, the problem right away is that you and I aren’t ”real” in terms of Buddhist reckoning to begin with.
The best response I ever heard to the question of the ‘reality’ of what we might call the unprovable aspects of the teachings, various deities, even the six realms, was “They are no more real than you are...but how real are you?”
...at the same time, they are in fact “more real” than the one asking the question, because as ‘mythologically presented’ as they may be, they express a reality which is fundamentally more real than the illusionary one we cling to.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Re: So are Sutras really from the Buddha, or just fiction

Post by Malcolm »

Könchok Chödrak wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 12:20 am Why do you believe certain things you can’t easily explain but not others? And another question, do you believe that your connection to the Dharmakaya with your Buddha-Nature gives you access to an Omniscient truth? Perhaps in meditation you can seek what you are looking for..
To whom is this question directed?
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Re: So are Sutras really from the Buddha, or just fiction

Post by Budai »

Malcolm wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 1:01 am
Könchok Chödrak wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 12:20 am Why do you believe certain things you can’t easily explain but not others? And another question, do you believe that your connection to the Dharmakaya with your Buddha-Nature gives you access to an Omniscient truth? Perhaps in meditation you can seek what you are looking for..
To whom is this question directed?
Well not necessarily directly at you. I know you would answer this question for yourself easily, but you can also answer it openly too if you want. It was just a question for anyone who is discussing this subject of Buddhist Sutras not being presented as accurate with regards to the miracles and wonderful descriptions.
Malcolm
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Re: So are Sutras really from the Buddha, or just fiction

Post by Malcolm »

Könchok Chödrak wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 12:20 am Why do you believe certain things you can’t easily explain but not others? And another question, do you believe that your connection to the Dharmakaya with your Buddha-Nature gives you access to an Omniscient truth? Perhaps in meditation you can seek what you are looking for..
Belief and acceptance are two different things. Somethings are conducive to liberation, some are not. But that varies quite a bit from one person to another.
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Re: So are Sutras really from the Buddha, or just fiction

Post by Budai »

Malcolm wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 2:01 am
Könchok Chödrak wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 12:20 am Why do you believe certain things you can’t easily explain but not others? And another question, do you believe that your connection to the Dharmakaya with your Buddha-Nature gives you access to an Omniscient truth? Perhaps in meditation you can seek what you are looking for..
Belief and acceptance are two different things. Somethings are conducive to liberation, some are not. But that varies quite a bit from one person to another.
Do you believe a literal belief in the miracles in the sutras or at least the possibility of such miracles happening are conductive to an open mind that leads closer to liberation? Like say, circling the Buddha for thousands of kalpas, or the World-Honored One performing a miracle of picking up the entire multitude of Bodhisattvas in His hand to give them a Transference of His Enlightenment in the Lotus Sutra. There is reality, but what creates limits for us in this world? And how do you view the Pure Land of Holy Eagle Peak?
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Re: So are Sutras really from the Buddha, or just fiction

Post by Malcolm »

Könchok Chödrak wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 2:21 am
Malcolm wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 2:01 am
Könchok Chödrak wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 12:20 am Why do you believe certain things you can’t easily explain but not others? And another question, do you believe that your connection to the Dharmakaya with your Buddha-Nature gives you access to an Omniscient truth? Perhaps in meditation you can seek what you are looking for..
Belief and acceptance are two different things. Somethings are conducive to liberation, some are not. But that varies quite a bit from one person to another.
Do you believe a literal belief in the miracles in the sutras or at least the possibility of such miracles happening are conductive to an open mind that leads closer to liberation? Like say, circling the Buddha for thousands of kalpas, or the World-Honored One performing a miracle of picking up the entire multitude of Bodhisattvas in His hand to give them a Transference of His Enlightenment in the Lotus Sutra. There is reality, but what creates limits for us in this world? And how do you view the Pure Land of Holy Eagle Peak?
Beliefs are concepts. Concepts and buddhahood are mutually exclusive.

Gridrakuta is a place you can visit in India.
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Re: So are Sutras really from the Buddha, or just fiction

Post by Budai »

Malcolm wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 2:32 am
Könchok Chödrak wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 2:21 am
Malcolm wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 2:01 am

Belief and acceptance are two different things. Somethings are conducive to liberation, some are not. But that varies quite a bit from one person to another.
Do you believe a literal belief in the miracles in the sutras or at least the possibility of such miracles happening are conductive to an open mind that leads closer to liberation? Like say, circling the Buddha for thousands of kalpas, or the World-Honored One performing a miracle of picking up the entire multitude of Bodhisattvas in His hand to give them a Transference of His Enlightenment in the Lotus Sutra. There is reality, but what creates limits for us in this world? And how do you view the Pure Land of Holy Eagle Peak?
Beliefs are concepts. Concepts and buddhahood are mutually exclusive.

Gridrakuta is a place you can visit in India.
Okay, on a side note then, can you direct me to a Sutric reference which talks of beliefs not being a part of the Buddha-mind?
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