Question: The eternal śrāmaṇera?

[FiveSkandhas]

A śrāmaṇera (shami in Japanese) is usually what is translated as a "novice monk". They receive Tokudo, get a Dharma name, have robes, and take an abbreviated set of vows.

They are also usually very young; in both Japan and in Theravada countries it's usually something one goes through as young as age ten and usually no older than age 20. Thus, the śrāmaṇera is a kind of "pre-monk."

In Japan, anyway, when adults decide to ordain at a later point in their life, the might only spend as little as one or two months as a śrāmaṇera before receiving full monkhood (albeit at the lowest rank).

So there is definitely a difference between śrāmaṇera and laity, it seems, while on the other hand they appear to be below and outside the entire monastic hierarchy, despite their robes and dharma names.

My question to anyone in the know is a bit odd: are there any cases of people who remain eternal śrāmaṇera? Who receive the Tokudo and vows of this category yet never go on to become actual monks?

Just curious.

[Dhammanando]

My question to anyone in the know is a bit odd: are there any cases of people who remain eternal śrāmaṇera? Who receive the Tokudo and vows of this category yet never go on to become actual monks?

I don't know about Japanese customs, but in both the Theravāda and Dharmaguptaka Vinaya lineages there are some men (albeit only a small minority) who opt to remain "eternal śrāmaṇeras".

There's a variety of reasons for such a decision. For example...

1. A bhikṣu thinks he may have committed a defeating offence but isn't sure about it. If his teachers can't free him from his doubts then he might opt to be demoted to śrāmaṇeraship in order to avoid the risk of being "in communion by theft".

2. A śrāmaṇera can't take higher ordination because he has one of the five prohibitive diseases (nowadays it's most often epilepsy).

3. A monastic who does a lot of international teaching might opt for śrāmaṇeraship because then he won't then be obliged to observe the three-month rains retreat when travelling is prohibited for bhikṣus.

4. A śrāmaṇera decides not to take higher ordination because he's not confident of his ability to observe the Vinaya in full and would rather be a strict śrāmaṇera than a lax bhikṣu.

5. A monastic of a strongly eremitical bent may opt for śrāmaṇeraship because he won't then be prohibited from storing and cooking his own food, which means that his contact with the laity can be kept to a bare minimum.

6. A man who ordains in old age might opt for śrāmaṇeraship (or the monastery might insist on this) if he's starting to show signs of senile dementia or some other debilitating condition.

[FiveSkandhas]

My question to anyone in the know is a bit odd: are there any cases of people who remain eternal śrāmaṇera? Who receive the Tokudo and vows of this category yet never go on to become actual monks?

I don't know about Japanese customs, but in both the Theravāda and Dharmaguptaka Vinaya lineages there are some men (albeit only a small minority) who opt to remain "eternal śrāmaṇeras".

There's a variety of reasons for such a decision. For example...

1. A bhikṣu thinks he may have committed a defeating offence but isn't sure about it. If his teachers can't free him from his doubts then he might opt to be demoted to śrāmaṇeraship in order to avoid the risk of being "in communion by theft".

2. A śrāmaṇera can't take higher ordination because he has one of the five prohibitive diseases (nowadays it's most often epilepsy).

3. A monastic who does a lot of international teaching might opt for śrāmaṇeraship because then he won't then be obliged to observe the three-month rains retreat when travelling is prohibited for bhikṣus.

4. A śrāmaṇera decides not to take higher ordination because he's not confident of his ability to observe the Vinaya in full and would rather be a strict śrāmaṇera than a lax bhikṣu.

5. A monastic of a strongly eremitical bent may opt for śrāmaṇeraship because he won't then be prohibited from storing and cooking his own food, which means that his contact with the laity can be kept to a bare minimum.

6. A man who ordains in old age might opt for śrāmaṇeraship (or the monastery might insist on this) if he's starting to show signs of senile dementia or some other debilitating condition.

Thank you for your helpful answer! This is exactly the kind of information I was looking to find.

What little I came up with as far as Japan is concerned is that there was a fashion among aged aristocrats in the middle ages for taking the simplest possible initiation (śrāmaṇera) and then calling themselves "Lay Priests." (入道) They would build little rustic shacks on their estates and retire to study the Dharma in private.

Sounds rather delightful if you ask me...

[Malcolm]

My question to anyone in the know is a bit odd: are there any cases of people who remain eternal śrāmaṇera? Who receive the Tokudo and vows of this category yet never go on to become actual monks?

Just curious.

This is quote common in Tibet.

[FiveSkandhas]

My question to anyone in the know is a bit odd: are there any cases of people who remain eternal śrāmaṇera? Who receive the Tokudo and vows of this category yet never go on to become actual monks?

Just curious.

This is quote common in Tibet.

What are some of the Tibetan rationales and reasons for remaining śrāmaṇera?

[Malcolm]

What are some of the Tibetan rationales and reasons for remaining śrāmaṇera?

Some people are content with just being a dge tshul (śrāmaṇera). I have met many such people. Full ordination is a big step, and being a dge slong (bhikṣu) not a decision entered lightly.

[Bristollad]

What are some of the Tibetan rationales and reasons for remaining śrāmaṇera?

Some people are content with just being a dge tshul (śrāmaṇera). I have met many such people. Full ordination is a big step, and being a dge slong (bhikṣu) not a decision entered lightly.

Indeed, Lama Zopa Rinpoche often asks why someone thinks they need more vows considering how much difficulty we generally find maintaining getsul, bodhisattva and tantric vows. We have to be careful that our actual motivation isn't just the wish for increased status.

The motivation in the Tibetan traditions is to be ordained for life - it is not supposed to be a temporary choice - I think this makes a difference.

Also, rules for getsuls aren't as restrictive as the full gelong rules, and so can be a better fit for those living in less than ideal circumstances.

[LastLegend]

In Khmer Theravada tradition of Vietnam, young men pay filial duties to parents by becoming a monk for three years...then they’ll come out and get married.

[FiveSkandhas]

Thanks for the answers all.

I'm sort of fascinated by the "rank" of śrāmaṇera because it's clearly not lay but I'm not sure it can be called truly "clerical" either. It seems to be positioned higher than an Upasaka. But since it seems to be a transitory stage on the way to Bikkhu for most -- and also associated with extreme youth -- it's hard for me to get a sense of what a long-term śrāmaṇera would actually do. Do they assist in temple ritual in some way? Can they preach or teach?

[Malcolm]

Thanks for the answers all.

I'm sort of fascinated by the "rank" of śrāmaṇera because it's clearly not lay but I'm not sure it can be called truly "clerical" either.

Śrāmaṇeras are definitely part of the "ordained" Sangha. They have gone forth (pravrajita) into the homeless life.

It seems to be positioned higher than an Upasaka. But since it seems to be a transitory stage on the way to Bikkhu for most -- and also associated with extreme youth -- it's hard for me to get a sense of what a long-term śrāmaṇera would actually do. Do they assist in temple ritual in some way? Can they preach or teach?

They follow the vows and conduct of a śrāmaṇera, and yes they can teach, etc. The difference between "the laity" (not really an appropriate term for upāsakas) and śrāmaṇeras is the difference of vows. The Buddha's original monastic sangha had no rules. Then eventually, there were 200+, and a common joke in Tibetan circles is that if the Buddha had lived to 100 there would have been more than 500, because most of the rules were implemented because lay people complained about the behavior of this or that monk, etc.

[FiveSkandhas]

Thanks for the answers all.

I'm sort of fascinated by the "rank" of śrāmaṇera because it's clearly not lay but I'm not sure it can be called truly "clerical" either.

Śrāmaṇeras are definitely part of the "ordained" Sangha. They have gone forth (pravrajita) into the homeless life.

It seems to be positioned higher than an Upasaka. But since it seems to be a transitory stage on the way to Bikkhu for most -- and also associated with extreme youth -- it's hard for me to get a sense of what a long-term śrāmaṇera would actually do. Do they assist in temple ritual in some way? Can they preach or teach?

They follow the vows and conduct of a śrāmaṇera, and yes they can teach, etc. The difference between "the laity" (not really an appropriate term for upāsakas) and śrāmaṇeras is the difference of vows. The Buddha's original monastic sangha had no rules. Then eventually, there were 200+, and a common joke in Tibetan circles is that if the Buddha had lived to 100 there would have been more than 500, because most of the rules were implemented because lay people complained about the behavior of this or that monk, etc.

[Queequeg]

Read the Vinaya Pitaka. It starts out with the Buddha saying, "My followers are perfect in conduct. We don't need rules. [Yet.]" Then the wrong doing starts piling up and the Buddha has to keep telling people, "Don't do that." "And don't do that."

What is remarkable is that he doesn't completely lose his patience with this unruly mob that started following him around. He does take off from time to time to be alone and away from them all. At that point, its like his pre-bodhi dream where the maggots are crawling up his legs.

[FiveSkandhas]

My next question is about the possibility of people who undergo what is known as "Tokudo" (得度) in Japanese, which is I believe tārayati in Sanskrit...but who do not take any vows.

In Japan at least, Tokudo is taken first and the jukai (ten vows) are taken in a separate ritual. My question is: is there a category of practicioners who undergo Tokudo/tārayati/"ordination" but who stop there and never receive vows?

Excuse my ignorance, I feel I should be better versed in these things but I'm simply not, so any and all answers are appreciated.

[PadmaVonSamba]

Excuse my ignorance, I feel I should be better versed in these things but I'm simply not, so any and all answers are appreciated.

This is a really good topic for discussion. I didn’t know a lot of this stuff. So I think many people will benefit from your curiosity. Fascinating stuff!

[Malcolm]

My next question is about the possibility of people who undergo what is known as "Tokudo" (得度) in Japanese, which is I believe tārayati in Sanskrit...but who do not take any vows.

In Japan at least, Tokudo is taken first and the jukai (ten vows) are taken in a separate ritual. My question is: is there a category of practicioners who undergo Tokudo/tārayati/"ordination" but who stop there and never receive vows?

Excuse my ignorance, I feel I should be better versed in these things but I'm simply not, so any and all answers are appreciated.

In Sarvāstivāda, it is possible to receive to receive upāsaka vows, and only follow one of them, i.e., not killing, and the precepts of refuge: not holding non-buddhist teachers or gods as as one's refuge; not harming; and not associating with those hostile to the Dharma. One can also elect to hold two, three, or all the upāsaka vows. If the last, then one is considered a full upāsaka.

I am not familiar with this term: tārayati.

[FiveSkandhas]

My next question is about the possibility of people who undergo what is known as "Tokudo" (得度) in Japanese, which is I believe tārayati in Sanskrit...but who do not take any vows.

In Japan at least, Tokudo is taken first and the jukai (ten vows) are taken in a separate ritual. My question is: is there a category of practicioners who undergo Tokudo/tārayati/"ordination" but who stop there and never receive vows?

Excuse my ignorance, I feel I should be better versed in these things but I'm simply not, so any and all answers are appreciated.

In Sarvāstivāda, it is possible to receive to receive upāsaka vows, and only follow one of them, i.e., not killing, and the precepts of refuge: not holding non-buddhist teachers or gods as as one's refuge; not harming; and not associating with those hostile to the Dharma. One can also elect to hold two, three, or all the upāsaka vows. If the last, then one is considered a full upāsaka.

I am not familiar with this term: tārayati.

I was hoping you would show up for this question. Thank you again, your answer is informative and appreciated.