A question about Buddha Goddess Tara

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tkp67
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Re: A question about Buddha Goddess Tara

Post by tkp67 »

Volan wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 10:44 pm According to the "Facing Everywhere: The Teaching of the Miracles of Avalokiteśvara" chapter of the Lotus sutra, Avalokiteśvara manifests himself in various forms: Maheśvara, Śakra, Brahmā, piśāca, yakṣa... Tara is the same entity as Avalokiteśvara manifesting itself in form of the goddess-devi.

The differences between the Buddha and the gods according to the "MAHĀPRAJÑĀPĀRAMITĀŚĀSTRA",
transl. by ÉTIENNE LAMOTTE and Gelongma Karma Migme Chodron:
3. Furthermore, bhāga means glory (yaśas-) and vat indicates its possession. Thus this word means "the one who possesses glory". No-one else has as much glory as the Buddha. The noble cakravartin kings, Indra, Brahmā, the lokapālas, are inferior to the Buddha. What then could be said of ordinary men (pṛthagjana)? Why? The noble cakravartin kings are fettered by bonds (bandhanasaṃyukta): the Buddha has broken the bonds. - The noble cakravartin kings are sunk in the mire of birth (jāti), old age (jarā), sickness (vyādhi) and death (maraṇa); the Buddha has transcended them. - The noble cakravartin kings are enslaved (dāsa) by their passions (anunaya); the Buddha has eliminated them. - The noble cakravartin kings dwell in the womb of the calamities of the human jungle (lokakāntāra); the Buddha has escaped from it. - The noble cakravartin kings dwell in the shadows of ignorance (avidyāndhakāra); the Buddha lives in the supreme light. - The noble cakravartin kings often reign over the four continents (caturdvīpaka)238 ; the Buddha reigns over countless universes (apramāṇalokadhātu). - The cakravartin kings have mastery over wealth (pariṣkāravaśitā); the Buddha has mastery over mind (cetovāśita). - The noble cakravartin kings covet heavenly bliss (devasukha); the Buddha covets nothing, having reached the well-being of the summit of existence (bhavāgrasukha). The cakravartin kings seek their happiness from others; the Buddha rejoices in his own heart. This is why the Buddha surpasses (abhibhavati) the noble cakravartin kings. He also surpasses all the other beings, Indra, Brahmā, the lokapālas who are [70c] even inferior to the noble cakravartin kings.
Yes and this Bodhisattva is already a facet of both the daimoku and gohonzon. It is central to the LS.

Perceiver of the World’s Sounds [観世音菩薩] ( Avalokitasvara or Avalokiteshvara;  Kanzeon-bosatsu)

The LS teaches the ten realms and mutual possession.
"I use these nine devices,
adapting them to the living beings when I preach,
my basic aim being to lead them into the great vehicle,
and that is why I preach this sutra."
This dynamic exists in all minds and these adaptations is each individuals buddha nature expressing itself according to cause, capacity and conditions.

The realms that they manifest is a reflection of cause, capacity and conditions as are the beings of those realms that seek to assist or deter respectively. They are as real as the actions they manifest.
The Buddha said that in past ages
the countless buddhas who have passed into extinction
rested and abided in the midst of expedient means,
and all likewise preached this Law.
The buddhas of the present and future,
whose numbers are beyond calculation,
they too will use expedient means
in expounding this same Law
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Re: A question about Buddha Goddess Tara

Post by SilenceMonkey »

tkp67 wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 3:59 am
Volan wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 10:44 pm According to the "Facing Everywhere: The Teaching of the Miracles of Avalokiteśvara" chapter of the Lotus sutra, Avalokiteśvara manifests himself in various forms: Maheśvara, Śakra, Brahmā, piśāca, yakṣa... Tara is the same entity as Avalokiteśvara manifesting itself in form of the goddess-devi.

The differences between the Buddha and the gods according to the "MAHĀPRAJÑĀPĀRAMITĀŚĀSTRA",
transl. by ÉTIENNE LAMOTTE and Gelongma Karma Migme Chodron:
3. Furthermore, bhāga means glory (yaśas-) and vat indicates its possession. Thus this word means "the one who possesses glory". No-one else has as much glory as the Buddha. The noble cakravartin kings, Indra, Brahmā, the lokapālas, are inferior to the Buddha. What then could be said of ordinary men (pṛthagjana)? Why? The noble cakravartin kings are fettered by bonds (bandhanasaṃyukta): the Buddha has broken the bonds. - The noble cakravartin kings are sunk in the mire of birth (jāti), old age (jarā), sickness (vyādhi) and death (maraṇa); the Buddha has transcended them. - The noble cakravartin kings are enslaved (dāsa) by their passions (anunaya); the Buddha has eliminated them. - The noble cakravartin kings dwell in the womb of the calamities of the human jungle (lokakāntāra); the Buddha has escaped from it. - The noble cakravartin kings dwell in the shadows of ignorance (avidyāndhakāra); the Buddha lives in the supreme light. - The noble cakravartin kings often reign over the four continents (caturdvīpaka)238 ; the Buddha reigns over countless universes (apramāṇalokadhātu). - The cakravartin kings have mastery over wealth (pariṣkāravaśitā); the Buddha has mastery over mind (cetovāśita). - The noble cakravartin kings covet heavenly bliss (devasukha); the Buddha covets nothing, having reached the well-being of the summit of existence (bhavāgrasukha). The cakravartin kings seek their happiness from others; the Buddha rejoices in his own heart. This is why the Buddha surpasses (abhibhavati) the noble cakravartin kings. He also surpasses all the other beings, Indra, Brahmā, the lokapālas who are [70c] even inferior to the noble cakravartin kings.
Yes and this Bodhisattva is already a facet of both the daimoku and gohonzon. It is central to the LS.

Perceiver of the World’s Sounds [観世音菩薩] ( Avalokitasvara or Avalokiteshvara;  Kanzeon-bosatsu)
Tara and Guan Yin are different. It's a common mistake. There's a lot of people who see the similarities of the divine feminine in each tradition, how each of them will swiftly and surely answer one's prayers in times of distress. But they're actually different beings.
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Re: A question about Buddha Goddess Tara

Post by Volan »

Malcolm wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 11:38 pm
Volan wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 11:26 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 10:54 pm

No, Tara has her own rnam thar, and her own pure land, etc.
Potala pure land - Avalokiteshvara at the top of the mountain and Tara in the forest at the foot. And there are even forms with the combined mantras.
Hayagriva, Garuda, Vajrapani also have combined mantras, this does not make them the same, it in fact points to their difference. Tara vowed to acheive buddhahood in a female form, and never take male rebirth.
According to the Tārāṣṭottaraśatanāmastotram Tantra, Tara was born to Avalokiteshvara by the power of Amitabha`s pranidhi and Avalokiteshvara`s mahakaruna. Tibetans elaborate that story - she was born from the tears of Avalokiteshvara. This makes her somewhat similar to the Eleven faces of Avalokiteshvara, because they appeared from the similar factors.

And i will take the stories from the tantras over the story from namthar (liberation story).
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Re: A question about Buddha Goddess Tara

Post by lelopa »

Ayu wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 12:40 pm I'm not sure, what you're talking about.
In German even Avalokiteshvara and Manjushri are called 'meditation diety' . Deity (Gottheit) contains the word Gott=God. And nobody knows a difference between Gott and Gottheit. I don't know, if there is a difference between God and diety in English.

Anyhow, everybody knows that it's only a term and that they are Buddhas. :shrug:
the most german buddhists i know, know/make the difference:
Gott/god is Allah, Yehova, or Godfather - Gottheit/deity/goddess is Bodhisattva, Dharmapala, Yidam a.s.o. as a collecting term,
not as a specific title
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Re: A question about Buddha Goddess Tara

Post by Giovanni »

Minobu wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 3:54 pm
Giovanni wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 8:26 am I think a deeper question is why did Hindus and Buddhists appropriate the western concept, and name and call certain beings Goddesses ? As Anders point to no one calls Avalokita or Manju Shri a God.
hmmm i think god and God are two entirely different concepts .

the gods are a samsaric realm where as God is the Abrahamic Creator of everything and like rules over everything
I agree. Which makes both God and Goddess incorrect. Goddess and God define each other by terminology.
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Re: A question about Buddha Goddess Tara

Post by Ayu »

lelopa wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 8:36 am
Ayu wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 12:40 pm I'm not sure, what you're talking about.
In German even Avalokiteshvara and Manjushri are called 'meditation diety' . Deity (Gottheit) contains the word Gott=God. And nobody knows a difference between Gott and Gottheit. I don't know, if there is a difference between God and diety in English.

Anyhow, everybody knows that it's only a term and that they are Buddhas. :shrug:
the most german buddhists i know, know/make the difference:
Gott/god is Allah, Yehova, or Godfather - Gottheit/deity/goddess is Bodhisattva, Dharmapala, Yidam a.s.o. as a collecting term,
not as a specific title
Thanks, I agree.
Only outsiders who are not very familiar with buddhist philosophy are getting confused.
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Re: A question about Buddha Goddess Tara

Post by tkp67 »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 5:06 am
tkp67 wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 3:59 am
Volan wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 10:44 pm According to the "Facing Everywhere: The Teaching of the Miracles of Avalokiteśvara" chapter of the Lotus sutra, Avalokiteśvara manifests himself in various forms: Maheśvara, Śakra, Brahmā, piśāca, yakṣa... Tara is the same entity as Avalokiteśvara manifesting itself in form of the goddess-devi.

The differences between the Buddha and the gods according to the "MAHĀPRAJÑĀPĀRAMITĀŚĀSTRA",
transl. by ÉTIENNE LAMOTTE and Gelongma Karma Migme Chodron:

Yes and this Bodhisattva is already a facet of both the daimoku and gohonzon. It is central to the LS.

Perceiver of the World’s Sounds [観世音菩薩] ( Avalokitasvara or Avalokiteshvara;  Kanzeon-bosatsu)
Tara and Guan Yin are different. It's a common mistake. There's a lot of people who see the similarities of the divine feminine in each tradition, how each of them will swiftly and surely answer one's prayers in times of distress. But they're actually different beings.
The function Tara provides is manifested through this bodhisattva.

None of these entities are external manifestations. To place an object of devotion outside of the gohonzon objectifies that entity as external independant agency.

The specificity of Nichiren's teachings provide a required function to assure a practitioner reaches a stage of non regression.
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Re: A question about Buddha Goddess Tara

Post by Giovanni »

We see things slightly differently in the Vajrayana . To say that Tara is a symbol is not right. To say that she represents some aspect of ourselves is not right. To say that she is an entity with permenant existence is also not right.
Her reality and the reality of other Yidams only becomes clearer when we practice Deity Yoga.
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Re: A question about Buddha Goddess Tara

Post by Minobu »

Giovanni wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 11:38 am We see things slightly differently in the Vajrayana . To say that Tara is a symbol is not right. To say that she represents some aspect of ourselves is not right. To say that she is an entity with permenant existence is also not right.
Her reality and the reality of other Yidams only becomes clearer when we practice Deity Yoga.
i agree.


The problem in the various Nichiren denominations is their total lack of understanding Buddhism , other than gosho and some other teachings.
Even high priest Nikken when i was in ShoShu admitted this and said we should learn more.
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Re: A question about Buddha Goddess Tara

Post by Minobu »

Ayu wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 9:09 am
Only outsiders who are not very familiar with buddhist philosophy are getting confused.
May I be so bold as to ask, are you referring to anyone in this thread?

Does outsiders include anyone that doesn't belong to your style of Buddhism ?
Never really heard the word outsiders except in cults.

It's a shocking statement for me.

I once was in a cult with a cult of personality , the whole ball of wax, and this brings trauma to the fore.
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Re: A question about Buddha Goddess Tara

Post by Volan »

Minobu wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 2:19 pm
Ayu wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 9:09 am
Only outsiders who are not very familiar with buddhist philosophy are getting confused.
May I be so bold as to ask, are you referring to anyone in this thread?

Does outsiders include anyone that doesn't belong to your style of Buddhism ?
Never really heard the word outsiders except in cults.

It's a shocking statement for me.

I once was in a cult with a cult of personality , the whole ball of wax, and this brings trauma to the fore.
Outsider is the classical Buddhist term - Sk. Tīrthika. Referring to non-Buddhists or with a more rough translation to heretics.

MAHĀPRAJÑĀPĀRAMITĀŚĀSTRA:
According to the customs of the tīrthikas and the pravrajitas, one stays between five fires, one stands on one leg, one tears out one's hair, etc.
Furthermore, all religious heretics (tīrthikaparivrājaka) imagine that their own doctrine is subtle (sūkṣma) and absolutely pure (paramaśuddha). These people exalt the doctrine that they practice and denigrate (nindanti) that of others. That is why, here below, they quarrel and argue; after death, they fall into hell (naraka) and suffer immense pain of all kinds. A stanza says:
Attached to their own doctrine,
They blame that of other people.
Even by observing moral conduct (śīlacaryā)
They do not escape from the torment of hell.
One of the Buddha`s ephiteths is anuttara (from a traditional formula of praise: bhagavāṃs tathāgato 'rhaṃ samyaksaṃbuddho vidyācaranasaṃpannaḥ sugato lokavid anuttaraḥ puruṣadamyasārathiḥ sasta devamanusyanam buddho bhagavāṃ):
3. Furthermore, A indicates negation and uttara means refutation. All the systems of the heretics (tīrthika) can be
refuted and destroyed because they are false (asatya) and impure (aviśudda). But the doctrine of the Buddha
cannot be either refuted or destroyed because it escapes any discussion (sarvavivādasamatikrānta); it is true (satya)
and pure (viśuddha). This is why he is called Anuttara.
Abhisamayalamkara with vrtti and aloka, English translation by Gareth Sparham:
He is a right unmistaken and perfect Buddha (sambuddha) who fully(samantad) understands (avabodha) dharmas, because he has unmistaken all-knowing knowledge. By saying that, he says he has perfect knowledge. He is saying that because the
Lord gives an unmistaken exposition of dharmas, because he has eliminated all cankers, and because he understands
dharmas in all their aspects he is the unique, complete, perfect Teacher. Those outside [the Buddhist fold] are not true
(bhuta) teachers in this way because they have not destroyed all the cankers and hence do not give an unmistaken exposition
of dharmas.
etc.
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Re: A question about Buddha Goddess Tara

Post by SilenceMonkey »

tkp67 wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 11:00 am
SilenceMonkey wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 5:06 am
tkp67 wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 3:59 am

Yes and this Bodhisattva is already a facet of both the daimoku and gohonzon. It is central to the LS.

Perceiver of the World’s Sounds [観世音菩薩] ( Avalokitasvara or Avalokiteshvara;  Kanzeon-bosatsu)
Tara and Guan Yin are different. It's a common mistake. There's a lot of people who see the similarities of the divine feminine in each tradition, how each of them will swiftly and surely answer one's prayers in times of distress. But they're actually different beings.
The function Tara provides is manifested through this bodhisattva.

None of these entities are external manifestations. To place an object of devotion outside of the gohonzon objectifies that entity as external independant agency.

The specificity of Nichiren's teachings provide a required function to assure a practitioner reaches a stage of non regression.
My point was that just as Guan Yin and Amitabha are different buddhas, so are Tara and Guan Yin.

Whether they are primordially included in the Gohonzon is another question.

In the Vajrayana, though, all buddhas are actually understood to be one. They are merely different manifestations of Buddha. Guan Yin is the essence of Buddha's compassion and Tara is the essence of enlightened activity.

Perhaps the Lotus Sutra is a manifestation of Buddha in the same way, as would be all other Mahayana sutras. Each sutra an expression of the primordial Buddha.
Last edited by SilenceMonkey on Mon May 10, 2021 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A question about Buddha Goddess Tara

Post by Minobu »

Volan wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 3:05 pm
Minobu wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 2:19 pm
Ayu wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 9:09 am
Only outsiders who are not very familiar with buddhist philosophy are getting confused.
May I be so bold as to ask, are you referring to anyone in this thread?

Does outsiders include anyone that doesn't belong to your style of Buddhism ?
Never really heard the word outsiders except in cults.

It's a shocking statement for me.

I once was in a cult with a cult of personality , the whole ball of wax, and this brings trauma to the fore.
Outsider is the classical Buddhist term - Sk. Tīrthika. Referring to non-Buddhists or with a more rough translation to heretics.

MAHĀPRAJÑĀPĀRAMITĀŚĀSTRA:
According to the customs of the tīrthikas and the pravrajitas, one stays between five fires, one stands on one leg, one tears out one's hair, etc.
Furthermore, all religious heretics (tīrthikaparivrājaka) imagine that their own doctrine is subtle (sūkṣma) and absolutely pure (paramaśuddha). These people exalt the doctrine that they practice and denigrate (nindanti) that of others. That is why, here below, they quarrel and argue; after death, they fall into hell (naraka) and suffer immense pain of all kinds. A stanza says:
Attached to their own doctrine,
They blame that of other people.
Even by observing moral conduct (śīlacaryā)
They do not escape from the torment of hell.
One of the Buddha`s ephiteths is anuttara (from a traditional formula of praise: bhagavāṃs tathāgato 'rhaṃ samyaksaṃbuddho vidyācaranasaṃpannaḥ sugato lokavid anuttaraḥ puruṣadamyasārathiḥ sasta devamanusyanam buddho bhagavāṃ):
3. Furthermore, A indicates negation and uttara means refutation. All the systems of the heretics (tīrthika) can be
refuted and destroyed because they are false (asatya) and impure (aviśudda). But the doctrine of the Buddha
cannot be either refuted or destroyed because it escapes any discussion (sarvavivādasamatikrānta); it is true (satya)
and pure (viśuddha). This is why he is called Anuttara.
Abhisamayalamkara with vrtti and aloka, English translation by Gareth Sparham:
He is a right unmistaken and perfect Buddha (sambuddha) who fully(samantad) understands (avabodha) dharmas, because he has unmistaken all-knowing knowledge. By saying that, he says he has perfect knowledge. He is saying that because the
Lord gives an unmistaken exposition of dharmas, because he has eliminated all cankers, and because he understands
dharmas in all their aspects he is the unique, complete, perfect Teacher. Those outside [the Buddhist fold] are not true
(bhuta) teachers in this way because they have not destroyed all the cankers and hence do not give an unmistaken exposition
of dharmas.
etc.
It makes me wonder where how some of this stuff ended up being said in the name of The Eternal Buddha Lord Sakyamuni .

*sigh*

This is why i prefer the simple teachings of Nichiren Shonin. He was a reformer in japan. He loathed what had become of Buddhism at the time.


also is Buddha Amitabha the same as Amida Butsu .

It was brought up in this thread.

and thanks for your input i enjoy your posts here in this thread.
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Re: A question about Buddha Goddess Tara

Post by Minobu »

Malcolm wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 6:59 pm
Minobu wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 5:51 pm Why do we refer to Her as a Goddess and not just a Buddha ?
We don't refer to her as a goddess in Buddhism. Hindu's do, however.
So I don't get this.
If Buddha Avalokiteshvara was first introduced in the Lotus Sutra , and Buddha Goddess Tara is from a Tear that fell from Lord Avalokiteshvara Buddha's eye .
How then would she be mentioned in way earlier Hindu texts?

Also I only really feel comfortable referring to Her as Buddha Goddess Tara.

also when did this concept of Her Being Born of a Tear first appear?
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Re: A question about Buddha Goddess Tara

Post by Malcolm »

Volan wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 8:32 am Tibetans elaborate that story - she was born from the tears of Avalokiteshvara.
This is from the praise to 21 Tārās, so not a Tibetan elaboration at all.

As for her biography, for example, Tārānātha's famous Golden Rosary (See, Wilson, In Praise of Tārā,1996), there is no contradiction between the Princess Candrajñānā having first wakened her bodhicitta under the Tathāgata Dundubhisvara, receiving the name Tārādevi, and vowing to attain buddhahood in female form and her later association with Avalokiteśvara.
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Re: A question about Buddha Goddess Tara

Post by Hazel »

Malcolm wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 5:29 pm
Volan wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 8:32 am Tibetans elaborate that story - she was born from the tears of Avalokiteshvara.
This is from the praise to 21 Tārās, so not a Tibetan elaboration at all.

As for her biography, for example, Tārānātha's famous Golden Rosary (See, Wilson, In Praise of Tārā,1996), there is no contradiction between the Princess Candrajñānā having first wakened her bodhicitta under the Tathāgata Dundubhi, receiving the name Tārādevi, and vowing to attain buddhahood in female form and her later association with Avalokiteśvara.
Can you say more about the lack of contradiction? Unfortunately I can't put my finger on what exactly I'm requesting that you refute (I know the burden of truth is on me), so I apologize. I guess it's "how could she come from a tear if she had her own continuous mind stream?"
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Re: A question about Buddha Goddess Tara

Post by Malcolm »

Minobu wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 4:59 pm

Also I only really feel comfortable referring to Her as Buddha Goddess Tara.

also when did this concept of Her Being Born of a Tear first appear?

"Devi" does not necessarily imply she is a goddess of the desire or form realm. Tārā was a princess, and the term devi is also used for princesses, just as the term devaputra is used for princes.
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Re: A question about Buddha Goddess Tara

Post by Malcolm »

Hazel wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 5:32 pm I guess it's "how could she come from a tear if she had her own continuous mind stream?"
Poetic license. If you read her biography (mentioned above), you will see she received her name and made her aspiration to never take male form eons ago, you will see her association with Tathāgatas Amoghasiddhi and Akṣobhya, her identification with Prajñāpāramita, her relationship with Avalokiteśvara, and her role in Śakyamuni Buddha's awakening, and so on.

Tāra is a complex figure, and cannot be reduced to an accouterment of a male bodhisattva's compassion.
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Re: A question about Buddha Goddess Tara

Post by Hazel »

Malcolm wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 5:34 pm
Hazel wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 5:32 pm I guess it's "how could she come from a tear if she had her own continuous mind stream?"
Poetic license. If you read her biography (mentioned above), you will see she received her name and made her aspiration to never take male form eons ago, you will see her association with Tathāgatas Amoghasiddhi and Akṣobhya, her identification with Prajñāpāramita, her relationship with Avalokiteśvara, and her role in Śakyamuni Buddha's awakening, and so on.

Tāra is a complex figure, and cannot be reduced to an accouterment of a male bodhisattva's compassion.

Thank you :-)
Tāra is a complex figure, and cannot be reduced to an accouterment of a male bodhisattva's compassion.
:good:

That story always bothered me for that reason, but seeing it as a larger whole - I get.
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Re: A question about Buddha Goddess Tara

Post by Malcolm »

tkp67 wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 11:00 am
The function Tara provides is manifested through this bodhisattva.
No, that is really not how it is.
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