Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

GrapeLover wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 5:55 pm Yēs, it’s worth tangentially noting that Theravadins hold that the bodhisattva path takes incalculable eons as well.
All the same, there are a lot of realized teachers out there. They won’t say they are, of course.
They all started out by learning how to sit still for 10
Minutes.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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LastLegend
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Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by LastLegend »

Supramundane wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:23 am
LastLegend wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:05 am
Supramundane wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:49 am It is water within water, like a huge rotating jigsaw puzzle. When we move away from the vortex of self, it is not there is no self, but that there is a paradigm of not-self. No self would be nathatta; emptiness is the expression of 'true self'.

There is an answer to your question, Subuthi, in the Diamond Sutra. I believe it specifically addresses this question. I'll have to dig up a quote.
I don’t think so lol 😂
Ok, let's try another way:

The self both exists and does not exist --- not possible because that would be monism
The self does not exist --- not possible because that would be nihilism
The self exists or does not exist --- not possible because that would be dualism
The self exists --- not possible because that would be eternalism

...so the middle way would be that: the not-self kind of exists (?).

Another way to see it is there is no 'I'... just maybe the dot on the 'I' lol :)
There is no particular way to describe the extinguished of all mind phenomena (in mind)...because it leads to delusional thoughts even subtle. However, masters of different traditions describe it as a helping tool to recognize nature. Chan doesn’t maintain a particular way of practice such as sitting. However, sitting will help us calmer. It’s really about how to go to the extinguished. Chan is very difficult but easy.
It’s eye blinking.
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KeithA
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Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by KeithA »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:03 pm
SilenceMonkey wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 4:20 pm I think you're right about the Theravadins. When I was involved with martial arts, there was a saying that practicing for 1 or 2 hours a day made you a hobbyist. Whereas when you practice for 6-8 hours a day, this is what's involved for professional martial artists. (The martial artists in the room can debate this all they want, but it's the principle.) Theravadins in those monasteries in Thailand and Burma are professional meditators. I think 8 hours a day is really what's required to get some real mileage out of this life. Otherwise, there's way too much distraction in modern life to develop much samadhi. I know we can practice... but i'm wondering how deep it will really go.

I've also heard of some people practicing four hours in the morning, and another practicing 8 hours each evening after work... That might do it. I know quality is more important than quantity. But seriously, practitioners gotta log in our hours and make our lives like retreat.
If one can spend a lot of time, or a retreat, on formal meditation practice etc. that’s great. Maybe even the best.
But a layperson shouldn’t think that if they can’t do that, there is no hope.
The point I am making is that if a person:
1.sincerely trusts that realization is actually achievable, and
2. Applies the teachings to all situations that they encounter,

...and really does that with mindful attention, the way a zen student wrestles with a koan, I don’t see how a person will not develop some insight or other qualities. That doesn’t mean you’ll be a Buddha. But I have seen this have a positive effect on people. It’s not unusual at all if you put in the effort. That’s the other point I was making. It’s very down to Earth and practical. It’s not all this celestial theater with impossible goals that you need super powers to accomplish.

Conversely, if you only “agree” with the teachings theoretically but don’t actually think they will deliver the goods, so you don’t apply them when negative situations arise, it is very likely that you won’t get much from the teachings in this lifetime.
:good:

Lovely. _/|\_
Keith
When walking, standing, sitting, lying down, speaking,
being silent, moving, being still.
At all times, in all places, without interruption - what is this?
One mind is infinite kalpas.

New Haven Zen Center
SilenceMonkey
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Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by SilenceMonkey »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:03 pm
SilenceMonkey wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 4:20 pm I think you're right about the Theravadins. When I was involved with martial arts, there was a saying that practicing for 1 or 2 hours a day made you a hobbyist. Whereas when you practice for 6-8 hours a day, this is what's involved for professional martial artists. (The martial artists in the room can debate this all they want, but it's the principle.) Theravadins in those monasteries in Thailand and Burma are professional meditators. I think 8 hours a day is really what's required to get some real mileage out of this life. Otherwise, there's way too much distraction in modern life to develop much samadhi. I know we can practice... but i'm wondering how deep it will really go.

I've also heard of some people practicing four hours in the morning, and another practicing 8 hours each evening after work... That might do it. I know quality is more important than quantity. But seriously, practitioners gotta log in our hours and make our lives like retreat.
If one can spend a lot of time, or a retreat, on formal meditation practice etc. that’s great. Maybe even the best.
But a layperson shouldn’t think that if they can’t do that, there is no hope.
The point I am making is that if a person:
1.sincerely trusts that realization is actually achievable, and
2. Applies the teachings to all situations that they encounter,

...and really does that with mindful attention, the way a zen student wrestles with a koan, I don’t see how a person will not develop some insight or other qualities. That doesn’t mean you’ll be a Buddha. But I have seen this have a positive effect on people. It’s not unusual at all if you put in the effort. That’s the other point I was making. It’s very down to Earth and practical. It’s not all this celestial theater with impossible goals that you need super powers to accomplish.

Conversely, if you only “agree” with the teachings theoretically but don’t actually think they will deliver the goods, so you don’t apply them when negative situations arise, it is very likely that you won’t get much from the teachings in this lifetime.
I'll second that :good:
ynm
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Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by ynm »

Buddha said there are 5 actions that surely prevent someone from enlightenment in this life. But apart from that, or maybe even those people...

This question makes me think from scientific point of view, for ordinary and enlightened people, what's the different? They both have a stream of mind, so the quality of enlightenment must be the content in that stream.

Where is content in a mind stream generated from? I think it can not generated from nothing, but must be from his brain.

So if we can modify a person brain directly, maybe we can force it to generate the desired content, the state of enlightenment. People may say enlightenment is not a state but a negative thing, e.g the extinction of something... Positive or negative, maybe we can generate or copy it from the brain of the enlightened people. I remember Osho said it could be possible to copy skill by this approach, so maybe we can even copy enlightenment.

People above talk about sociopath and psychopath and their therapy, it showed that biochemical drug does have a role in conditioning their behavior. But that's the current state of medicine, it can not directly manipulate this human bio computer.

Maybe if science is advanced enough then everything biomechanics can be repaired, even reviving the death. After all the body is just a machine, the brain is just a computer, it's all can be fixed or reprogrammed. And maybe animal brain can be fixed so they can have higher intelligence like human and even get enlightened.

Actually what we are training is just an indirect way to reprogram our brain, it's very work extensive and time consuming. A direct medical manipulation would be much better and faster. So maybe everyone, just reprogram his brain and he can be enlightened, if not then it will be much easier for him to get there.
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Aemilius
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Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by Aemilius »

Buddhism does not believe that mind equals brains. This has been argued and discussed here in the DW several times, I will not take up any of the normal positions regarding it. Why would You think that mind is or is not the brains?
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

ynm wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:55 pm
This question makes me think from scientific point of view, for ordinary and enlightened people, what's the different? They both have a stream of mind, so the quality of enlightenment must be the content in that stream.
Well, it has nothing at all to do with content of the mind.

But it has a lot to do with the mind being content.

:rolling:
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Supramundane
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Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by Supramundane »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:09 pm
ynm wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:55 pm
This question makes me think from scientific point of view, for ordinary and enlightened people, what's the different? They both have a stream of mind, so the quality of enlightenment must be the content in that stream.
Well, it has nothing at all to do with content of the mind.

But it has a lot to do with the mind being content.

:rolling:
It's a new koan! :rolling: :rolling: :rolling: :twothumbsup:
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