Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
User avatar
FiveSkandhas
Posts: 917
Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:40 pm

Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by FiveSkandhas »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:21 pm
Three things: The Lankāvatara should be taken as the definitive sutra on this topic for three reasons: 1) It defines tathāgatagarbha as cittaprakṛtiprabhāsvara aka the natural luminosity of the mind. 2) It defines all sentient beings as tathāgatagarbha and tathāgatagarbha as all sentient beings. 3. It is the sūtra identified by Candrakīrti as the final word on the subject.
Bodhidharma also considered the Laṅkāvatāra of supreme importance. He gave it to his chosen sucessor, Dazu Huike, as a sign of his attainmnent. Bodhidharma said:

[The Laṅkāvatāra Sutra] contains the essential teaching concerning the mind-ground of the Tathagata, by means of which you lead all sentient beings to the truth of Buddhism.


In fact the text was held in such high esteem by his lineage that the early Chan school was sometimes called "The Lanka School" by doxologists in the first few centuries.
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
muni
Posts: 5559
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by muni »

For Enlightenend nature all is/are awake, while for most of us/most beings, that is not 'seen'.

When awakened-enlightened is "Naturally Nature", how all cannot/would not once awake?
User avatar
Aemilius
Posts: 4604
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:44 am

Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by Aemilius »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:26 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:37 pm
The only difference between a Buddha and an ordinary, sentient being, is that the ordinary person doesn’t realize they are Buddha.
No, the difference between a buddha and and sentient beings is the presence or absence of adventitious afflictions, as the Buddha states in the Hevajra tantra:

Sentient beings are buddhas,
though obscured by adventitious afflictions.
When those are removed, they are buddhas.
Here the text says "sentient beings", what would this world be like, if the snakes, rats and parrots became awakened?
I mentioned only such animals that are mentioned in the Jatakas or Birth stories as possessing mind and volitions and thus being capable of creating good and bad karma, and also becoming awakened in some future life, if not in their present animal body. I think that some kind of insects are mentioned in the Karandavyuha sutra as objects of Avalokiteshvara's bodhisattva deeds, i.e. releasing them from the realm samsaric rebirth.
Could it be said:
"Ants and spiders and rats and snakes are buddhas,
though obscured by adventitious defilements.
When those are removed, they are buddhas."
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by Malcolm »

Aemilius wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:36 am
Malcolm wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:26 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:37 pm
The only difference between a Buddha and an ordinary, sentient being, is that the ordinary person doesn’t realize they are Buddha.
No, the difference between a buddha and and sentient beings is the presence or absence of adventitious afflictions, as the Buddha states in the Hevajra tantra:

Sentient beings are buddhas,
though obscured by adventitious afflictions.
When those are removed, they are buddhas.
Here the text says "sentient beings", what would this world be like, if the snakes, rats and parrots became awakened?
I mentioned only such animals that are mentioned in the Jatakas or Birth stories as possessing mind and volitions and thus being capable of creating good and bad karma, and also becoming awakened in some future life, if not in their present animal body. I think that some kind of insects are mentioned in the Karandavyuha sutra as objects of Avalokiteshvara's bodhisattva deeds, i.e. releasing them from the realm samsaric rebirth.
Could it be said:
"Ants and spiders and rats and snakes are buddhas,
though obscured by adventitious defilements.
When those are removed, they are buddhas."
Animals, etc., the beings of the five lokas apart from humans, generally, cannot practice a path.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by Malcolm »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:26 am
Malcolm wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:21 pm
Three things: The Lankāvatara should be taken as the definitive sutra on this topic for three reasons: 1) It defines tathāgatagarbha as cittaprakṛtiprabhāsvara aka the natural luminosity of the mind. 2) It defines all sentient beings as tathāgatagarbha and tathāgatagarbha as all sentient beings. 3. It is the sūtra identified by Candrakīrti as the final word on the subject.
Bodhidharma also considered the Laṅkāvatāra of supreme importance. He gave it to his chosen sucessor, Dazu Huike, as a sign of his attainmnent. Bodhidharma said:

[The Laṅkāvatāra Sutra] contains the essential teaching concerning the mind-ground of the Tathagata, by means of which you lead all sentient beings to the truth of Buddhism.


In fact the text was held in such high esteem by his lineage that the early Chan school was sometimes called "The Lanka School" by doxologists in the first few centuries.
Yes, this is true. It’s also one of those main reasons vegetarianism is stressed in Chan.
User avatar
Virgo
Posts: 4844
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Location: Uni-verse

Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by Virgo »

RonBucker wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:24 am A good teacher can lead any person to enlightenment, or are there people whom he cannot help?
The person must have connections to Buddhism from many lifetimes.

Virgo
karmanyingpo
Posts: 459
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:19 pm

Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by karmanyingpo »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:40 pm
Aemilius wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:36 am
Malcolm wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:26 pm

No, the difference between a buddha and and sentient beings is the presence or absence of adventitious afflictions, as the Buddha states in the Hevajra tantra:

Sentient beings are buddhas,
though obscured by adventitious afflictions.
When those are removed, they are buddhas.
Here the text says "sentient beings", what would this world be like, if the snakes, rats and parrots became awakened?
I mentioned only such animals that are mentioned in the Jatakas or Birth stories as possessing mind and volitions and thus being capable of creating good and bad karma, and also becoming awakened in some future life, if not in their present animal body. I think that some kind of insects are mentioned in the Karandavyuha sutra as objects of Avalokiteshvara's bodhisattva deeds, i.e. releasing them from the realm samsaric rebirth.
Could it be said:
"Ants and spiders and rats and snakes are buddhas,
though obscured by adventitious defilements.
When those are removed, they are buddhas."
Animals, etc., the beings of the five lokas apart from humans, generally, cannot practice a path.
Am I correct in interpreting the "generally" as meaning that there are sometimes exceptions?

What would those exceptions be?

KN
ma lu dzok pe san gye thop par shok!
User avatar
Aemilius
Posts: 4604
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:44 am

Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by Aemilius »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:40 pm
Aemilius wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:36 am
Malcolm wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:26 pm

No, the difference between a buddha and and sentient beings is the presence or absence of adventitious afflictions, as the Buddha states in the Hevajra tantra:

Sentient beings are buddhas,
though obscured by adventitious afflictions.
When those are removed, they are buddhas.
Here the text says "sentient beings", what would this world be like, if the snakes, rats and parrots became awakened?
I mentioned only such animals that are mentioned in the Jatakas or Birth stories as possessing mind and volitions and thus being capable of creating good and bad karma, and also becoming awakened in some future life, if not in their present animal body. I think that some kind of insects are mentioned in the Karandavyuha sutra as objects of Avalokiteshvara's bodhisattva deeds, i.e. releasing them from the realm samsaric rebirth.
Could it be said:
"Ants and spiders and rats and snakes are buddhas,
though obscured by adventitious defilements.
When those are removed, they are buddhas."
Animals, etc., the beings of the five lokas apart from humans, generally, cannot practice a path.
I don't buy that, in terms of Buddhism or in terms of modern knowledge of animal consciousness. All beings in the five or six lokas have all the members of the 12 Nidanas (of Conditioned arising) governing their existence, not only humans. Why would the Buddhist tradition say "all beings", if it didn't mean it?
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
Schrödinger’s Yidam
Posts: 7885
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

All beings suffer. They don't want to suffer, and will take action to stop it. Over a period of unimaginable lifetimes, ultimately that will bring them to Dharma (of some kind) and liberation.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
User avatar
Aemilius
Posts: 4604
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:44 am

Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by Aemilius »

I don't think it is that difficult or impossible, biologists studying animal behaviour have observed that there is compassion in the animal world, as an example. Maybe not always, but atleast sometimes.
There is a sutra where Buddha tells to his audience that once he was born in a hell where the inmates had to pull heavy carriages. He saw how another person was incapable of pulling his load and was beaten by the guardians of hell. Then the Buddha-to-be proposed that he will pull the other person's load, and as a consequence of this deed he died there and was reborn in heaven. This is a case of a positive deed in hell and its result.
Jatakas are one of the 12 classes of Buddhist canonical literature. There are many Jatakas where beings in an animal form create merit and possess wisdom.


Good Natured: The Origins of Right and Wrong in Humans and Other Animals
by Frans B. M. de Waal

Primates and Philosophers: How Morality Evolved (Princeton Science Library) 2016
by Frans de Waal (Author), Stephen Macedo (Editor), Josiah Ober (Editor)

Are We Smart Enough to Know How Smart Animals Are? 2017
by Frans de Waal
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 9446
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Aemilius wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:00 am
Malcolm wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:40 pm
Animals, etc., the beings of the five lokas apart from humans, generally, cannot practice a path.
I don't buy that, in terms of Buddhism or in terms of modern knowledge of animal consciousness. All beings in the five or six lokas have all the members of the 12 Nidanas (of Conditioned arising) governing their existence, not only humans. Why would the Buddhist tradition say "all beings", if it didn't mean it?
1. As Malcolm said, Generally this is the case. There can be rare exceptions. Considering just the the billions of types of non-mammal types of beings, it would be rare if not impossible to find one who could intentionally engage in a practice to free itself from samsaric rebirth. Among mammals, that’s pretty much limited to humans. And out of the 7 or 8 billion humans, maybe only 500 million technically. Out of that number, how many are really serious about it?

2. “Beings” is a construct referring to the beginningless stream of mental formations which takes rebirth again and again over many lifetimes. Yes, the true nature of the original mind of each being is unobstructed, clear, and without craving. It’s the same as a Buddha. The ability to realize that, however, is severely restricted to those who can practice a method for realizing it.

It’s somewhat like the roulette wheel at a casino. Sure, you can place your chips on any number, and the spinning ball can land on any number. Having both numbers be the same, that’s the tricky part. But the odds are much better for that to happen than they are for one to be born into a life where one can practice Dharma.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
User avatar
Aemilius
Posts: 4604
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:44 am

Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by Aemilius »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:32 am
Aemilius wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:00 am
Malcolm wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:40 pm
Animals, etc., the beings of the five lokas apart from humans, generally, cannot practice a path.
I don't buy that, in terms of Buddhism or in terms of modern knowledge of animal consciousness. All beings in the five or six lokas have all the members of the 12 Nidanas (of Conditioned arising) governing their existence, not only humans. Why would the Buddhist tradition say "all beings", if it didn't mean it?
1. As Malcolm said, Generally this is the case. There can be rare exceptions. Considering just the the billions of types of non-mammal types of beings, it would be rare if not impossible to find one who could intentionally engage in a practice to free itself from samsaric rebirth. Among mammals, that’s pretty much limited to humans. And out of the 7 or 8 billion humans, maybe only 500 million technically. Out of that number, how many are really serious about it?

2. “Beings” is a construct referring to the beginningless stream of mental formations which takes rebirth again and again over many lifetimes. Yes, the true nature of the original mind of each being is unobstructed, clear, and without craving. It’s the same as a Buddha. The ability to realize that, however, is severely restricted to those who can practice a method for realizing it.

It’s somewhat like the roulette wheel at a casino. Sure, you can place your chips on any number, and the spinning ball can land on any number. Having both numbers be the same, that’s the tricky part. But the odds are much better for that to happen than they are for one to be born into a life where one can practice Dharma.
You are being prejudiced against non-mammals, in the Jatakas the Buddha-to-be is born several times as a serpent or a naga. The theme here seems to be that serpents or nagas can keep precepts and observe the Uposatha days. (Similarly in other Jataka stories with some other animals, like the hare and jackal.)

32. “And while he was the royal nága (serpent) Bhúridatta, when he had undertaken the Uposatha precepts and was lying on the top of a termite-mound, though he was [caught and] sprinkled with medicinal charms resembling the fire that ushers in the end of an aeon, and was put into a box and treated as a plaything throughout the whole of Jambudìpa, yet he had no trace of hate for that brahman, according as it is said: ‘While being put into the coffer/ And being crushed down with his hand/ I had no hate for Álambána/ Lest I should break my precept vow’

33. “And when he was the royal nága Campeyya he let no hate spring up in his mind while he was being cruelly treated by a snake charmer, according as itis said: “While I was living in the Law/ Observing the Uposatha/A snake charmer took me away/ To play with at the royal gate./Whatever hue he might conceive,/ Blue and yellow, and red as well,/ So in accordance with his thought/ I would become what he had wished;/I would turn dry land into water,/ And water into land likewise./ Now, had I given way to wrath/ I could have seared him into ash,/ Had I relaxed mind-mastery/ I should have let my virtue lapse;/ And one who lets his virtue lapse/ Cannot attain the highest goal”.

34. “And when he was the royal nága Sankhapála, while he was being carried along on a carrying pole by the sixteen village boys after they had wounded him in eight places with sharp spears and inserted thorn creepers into thewounds’ orifices, and while, after threading a strong rope through his nose,they were causing him great agony by dragging him along bumping his body on the surface of the ground, though he was capable of turning those village boys to cinders with a mere glance, yet he did not even show the least trace ofhate on opening his eyes, according as it is said: ‘On the fourteenth and the fifteenth too,/Álára, I regularly kept the Holy Day,/ Until there came those sixteen village boys/ Bearing a rope and a stout spear as well./The hunters cleft my nose, and through the slit/ They passed a rope and dragged me off like that./ But though I felt such poignant agony,/ I let no hate disturb my Holy Day” (J-a V 172).

Awakening does not exist substantially in any being anywhere.
So you must only cease your notions of seeing other beings as unawakened.
There is no self or a being that possesses "awakening" after "having awakened" to the truth or reality.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 9446
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Aemilius wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:15 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:32 am
Aemilius wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:00 am


I don't buy that, in terms of Buddhism or in terms of modern knowledge of animal consciousness. All beings in the five or six lokas have all the members of the 12 Nidanas (of Conditioned arising) governing their existence, not only humans. Why would the Buddhist tradition say "all beings", if it didn't mean it?
1. As Malcolm said, Generally this is the case. There can be rare exceptions. Considering just the the billions of types of non-mammal types of beings, it would be rare if not impossible to find one who could intentionally engage in a practice to free itself from samsaric rebirth. Among mammals, that’s pretty much limited to humans. And out of the 7 or 8 billion humans, maybe only 500 million technically. Out of that number, how many are really serious about it?

2. “Beings” is a construct referring to the beginningless stream of mental formations which takes rebirth again and again over many lifetimes. Yes, the true nature of the original mind of each being is unobstructed, clear, and without craving. It’s the same as a Buddha. The ability to realize that, however, is severely restricted to those who can practice a method for realizing it.

It’s somewhat like the roulette wheel at a casino. Sure, you can place your chips on any number, and the spinning ball can land on any number. Having both numbers be the same, that’s the tricky part. But the odds are much better for that to happen than they are for one to be born into a life where one can practice Dharma.
You are being prejudiced against non-mammals, in the Jatakas the Buddha-to-be is born several times as a serpent or a naga. The theme here seems to be that serpents or nagas can keep precepts and observe the Uposatha days. (Similarly in other Jataka stories with some other animals, like the hare and jackal.)

32. “And while he was the royal nága (serpent) Bhúridatta, when he had undertaken the Uposatha precepts and was lying on the top of a termite-mound, though he was [caught and] sprinkled with medicinal charms resembling the fire that ushers in the end of an aeon, and was put into a box and treated as a plaything throughout the whole of Jambudìpa, yet he had no trace of hate for that brahman, according as it is said: ‘While being put into the coffer/ And being crushed down with his hand/ I had no hate for Álambána/ Lest I should break my precept vow’

33. “And when he was the royal nága Campeyya he let no hate spring up in his mind while he was being cruelly treated by a snake charmer, according as itis said: “While I was living in the Law/ Observing the Uposatha/A snake charmer took me away/ To play with at the royal gate./Whatever hue he might conceive,/ Blue and yellow, and red as well,/ So in accordance with his thought/ I would become what he had wished;/I would turn dry land into water,/ And water into land likewise./ Now, had I given way to wrath/ I could have seared him into ash,/ Had I relaxed mind-mastery/ I should have let my virtue lapse;/ And one who lets his virtue lapse/ Cannot attain the highest goal”.

34. “And when he was the royal nága Sankhapála, while he was being carried along on a carrying pole by the sixteen village boys after they had wounded him in eight places with sharp spears and inserted thorn creepers into thewounds’ orifices, and while, after threading a strong rope through his nose,they were causing him great agony by dragging him along bumping his body on the surface of the ground, though he was capable of turning those village boys to cinders with a mere glance, yet he did not even show the least trace ofhate on opening his eyes, according as it is said: ‘On the fourteenth and the fifteenth too,/Álára, I regularly kept the Holy Day,/ Until there came those sixteen village boys/ Bearing a rope and a stout spear as well./The hunters cleft my nose, and through the slit/ They passed a rope and dragged me off like that./ But though I felt such poignant agony,/ I let no hate disturb my Holy Day” (J-a V 172).

Awakening does not exist substantially in any being anywhere.
So you must only cease your notions of seeing other beings as unawakened.
There is no self or a being that possesses "awakening" after "having awakened" to the truth or reality.
Most animals are not buddhas.
Most animals cannot intentionally engage in the study and practice of Dharma as we know it.
Also, in your closing statement, the second sentence contradicts the first sentence.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by Malcolm »

karmanyingpo wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:43 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:40 pm
Aemilius wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:36 am

Here the text says "sentient beings", what would this world be like, if the snakes, rats and parrots became awakened?
I mentioned only such animals that are mentioned in the Jatakas or Birth stories as possessing mind and volitions and thus being capable of creating good and bad karma, and also becoming awakened in some future life, if not in their present animal body. I think that some kind of insects are mentioned in the Karandavyuha sutra as objects of Avalokiteshvara's bodhisattva deeds, i.e. releasing them from the realm samsaric rebirth.
Could it be said:
"Ants and spiders and rats and snakes are buddhas,
though obscured by adventitious defilements.
When those are removed, they are buddhas."
Animals, etc., the beings of the five lokas apart from humans, generally, cannot practice a path.
Am I correct in interpreting the "generally" as meaning that there are sometimes exceptions?

What would those exceptions be?

KN
Nagas.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by Malcolm »

Aemilius wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:00 am
I don't buy that, in terms of Buddhism or in terms of modern knowledge of animal consciousness. All beings in the five or six lokas have all the members of the 12 Nidanas (of Conditioned arising) governing their existence, not only humans. Why would the Buddhist tradition say "all beings", if it didn't mean it?
So, hell beings and pretas can attain buddhahood in their respective lokas? No, the Buddha clearly states that only human beings can practice a path and attain buddhahood. This why human birth in a central country etc., is desirable.
User avatar
Sādhaka
Posts: 1279
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2016 4:39 pm

Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by Sādhaka »

Actually, I saw something recently in a text that implied that Asuras have the possibility to attain Buddhahood as well. Unlikely that many would, I’d imagine, but the implication of the possibility was there. Now if I could just remember where I’d read it.... It was only like a month or so ago.

Also, aren’t there stories in Sutras and so on about Devas having the possibility to attain Buddhahood too?
Last edited by Sādhaka on Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 9446
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Aemilius wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:00 am
I don't buy that, in terms of Buddhism or in terms of modern knowledge of animal consciousness. All beings in the five or six lokas have all the members of the 12 Nidanas (of Conditioned arising) governing their existence, not only humans. Why would the Buddhist tradition say "all beings", if it didn't mean it?
All beings have Buddha nature.
In other words, the true nature of the mind of all beings is clear, unobstructed and so on, no different from a Buddha.

But that doesn’t mean that all beings can realize that clear and unimpeded state.

Do you see the difference here?
It’s like a cat’s butt hole.
All beings have a butt hole. But only some animals, such as cats and dogs, can lick their own butt hole.
Likewise, all beings have Buddha-nature
But only humans can access that or realize it.

🐱🐶
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by Malcolm »

Sādhaka wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:47 pm Actually, I saw something recently in a text that implied that Asuras have the possibility to attain Buddhahood as well. Unlikely that many would, I’d imagine, but the implication of the possibility was there. Now if I could just remember where I’d read it.... It was only like a month or so ago.

Also, aren’t there stories in Sutras and so on about Devas having the possibility to attain Buddhahood too?
The Suhṛllekha states:
Birth as one holding wrong views, as animals, pretas, and hell beings,
as one without the teaching of the victor, or in a border country,
birth as a barbarian, as one stupid and dumb,
or birth as any of the long-lived gods
are the eight faults of lacking freedom.
Having acquired the freedom that is liberated from those states.
one must make effort in order to avoid them.
Asuras here are included among the devas.
User avatar
Sādhaka
Posts: 1279
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2016 4:39 pm

Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by Sādhaka »

Hm, well I’ll just have to try to remember where I’d read it; and maybe post the quote here if I do....
User avatar
Aemilius
Posts: 4604
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:44 am

Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by Aemilius »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:29 pm
Aemilius wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:15 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:32 am

1. As Malcolm said, Generally this is the case. There can be rare exceptions. Considering just the the billions of types of non-mammal types of beings, it would be rare if not impossible to find one who could intentionally engage in a practice to free itself from samsaric rebirth. Among mammals, that’s pretty much limited to humans. And out of the 7 or 8 billion humans, maybe only 500 million technically. Out of that number, how many are really serious about it?

2. “Beings” is a construct referring to the beginningless stream of mental formations which takes rebirth again and again over many lifetimes. Yes, the true nature of the original mind of each being is unobstructed, clear, and without craving. It’s the same as a Buddha. The ability to realize that, however, is severely restricted to those who can practice a method for realizing it.

It’s somewhat like the roulette wheel at a casino. Sure, you can place your chips on any number, and the spinning ball can land on any number. Having both numbers be the same, that’s the tricky part. But the odds are much better for that to happen than they are for one to be born into a life where one can practice Dharma.
You are being prejudiced against non-mammals, in the Jatakas the Buddha-to-be is born several times as a serpent or a naga. The theme here seems to be that serpents or nagas can keep precepts and observe the Uposatha days. (Similarly in other Jataka stories with some other animals, like the hare and jackal.)

32. “And while he was the royal nága (serpent) Bhúridatta, when he had undertaken the Uposatha precepts and was lying on the top of a termite-mound, though he was [caught and] sprinkled with medicinal charms resembling the fire that ushers in the end of an aeon, and was put into a box and treated as a plaything throughout the whole of Jambudìpa, yet he had no trace of hate for that brahman, according as it is said: ‘While being put into the coffer/ And being crushed down with his hand/ I had no hate for Álambána/ Lest I should break my precept vow’

33. “And when he was the royal nága Campeyya he let no hate spring up in his mind while he was being cruelly treated by a snake charmer, according as itis said: “While I was living in the Law/ Observing the Uposatha/A snake charmer took me away/ To play with at the royal gate./Whatever hue he might conceive,/ Blue and yellow, and red as well,/ So in accordance with his thought/ I would become what he had wished;/I would turn dry land into water,/ And water into land likewise./ Now, had I given way to wrath/ I could have seared him into ash,/ Had I relaxed mind-mastery/ I should have let my virtue lapse;/ And one who lets his virtue lapse/ Cannot attain the highest goal”.

34. “And when he was the royal nága Sankhapála, while he was being carried along on a carrying pole by the sixteen village boys after they had wounded him in eight places with sharp spears and inserted thorn creepers into thewounds’ orifices, and while, after threading a strong rope through his nose,they were causing him great agony by dragging him along bumping his body on the surface of the ground, though he was capable of turning those village boys to cinders with a mere glance, yet he did not even show the least trace ofhate on opening his eyes, according as it is said: ‘On the fourteenth and the fifteenth too,/Álára, I regularly kept the Holy Day,/ Until there came those sixteen village boys/ Bearing a rope and a stout spear as well./The hunters cleft my nose, and through the slit/ They passed a rope and dragged me off like that./ But though I felt such poignant agony,/ I let no hate disturb my Holy Day” (J-a V 172).

Awakening does not exist substantially in any being anywhere.
So you must only cease your notions of seeing other beings as unawakened.
There is no self or a being that possesses "awakening" after "having awakened" to the truth or reality.
Most animals are not buddhas.
Most animals cannot intentionally engage in the study and practice of Dharma as we know it.
Also, in your closing statement, the second sentence contradicts the first sentence.
You seem to believe that there is an independent reality out there, in which a being x possesses the character y or quality y, independent of you perceiving it, independent of you believing or disbelieving it.
That is not the case, as far as I have understood anything of the teaching of Dharma.

The perceived object, for example "a being x possesses the quality y", can belong to one of the categories of imaginary nature, dependent nature, or truly established nature. Depending on the mind of the perceiver, his or her stage in the wheel of rebirth or nirvana.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
Post Reply

Return to “Mahāyāna Buddhism”