Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

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tkp67
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Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by tkp67 »

Theoretically or in reality?

In whose mind? one's own or everyone's mind?

When are we talking? Seconds from now or immeasurable Kalpa?

Where does the delineation in all these things occur?
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Queequeg wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:17 pm
Supramundane wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:38 pm Tathagatagarbha --- womb or embryo?

It is disputed whether buddha-nature is identical to Tathagatagarbha. Perhaps they both describe the same thing from different angles?

Tathāgatagarbha needs no cultivation... only uncovering, as it is already present and perfect in each being.

(Remember the Sutra about the poor man who in advanced old age found a jewel sewn into his smock. With Incredible surprise, he observed: 'I have been a rich man all this time and I never knew it!')

This points not to a womb (potential) but to an embryo (innate buddha-nature).

Perhaps tathagatagarbha and buddha-nature are different --- but refer to the same thing.
So they are different but not-different:)


Epilogue
Buddhist Sutras teaching Buddha Nature

--- Tathāgatagarbha Sūtra

--- Śrīmālādevī Siṃhanāda Sūtra

--- Anunatva Apurnatva Nirdeśa

--- Aṅgulimālīya Sūtra

--- Mahāyāna Mahāparinirvāṇa Sūtra

--- Laṅkāvatāra Sūtra
I've always understood Buddha nature and tathagatagarbha to refer the same quality. Words to help us fix our gaze.
There is a famous statement by the Surreal painter, Salvador Dali:
“The difference between a madman and myself, is that I am not mad!”

With tathagatagharba, it’s sort of like that.
The only difference between a Buddha and an ordinary, sentient being, is that the ordinary person doesn’t realize they are Buddha.

I ne’s Buddha-nature is already there. Nothing needs to be added or concocted. It is like the gem hidden away in the man’s coat.

The point of practicing dharma
is simply (or not so simply) the realization of it.
It’s that non-realizing that is a vast canyon separating us from what is as close as
the tip of our noses.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
RonBucker
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Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by RonBucker »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:37 pm
Queequeg wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:17 pm
Supramundane wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:38 pm Tathagatagarbha --- womb or embryo?

It is disputed whether buddha-nature is identical to Tathagatagarbha. Perhaps they both describe the same thing from different angles?

Tathāgatagarbha needs no cultivation... only uncovering, as it is already present and perfect in each being.

(Remember the Sutra about the poor man who in advanced old age found a jewel sewn into his smock. With Incredible surprise, he observed: 'I have been a rich man all this time and I never knew it!')

This points not to a womb (potential) but to an embryo (innate buddha-nature).

Perhaps tathagatagarbha and buddha-nature are different --- but refer to the same thing.
So they are different but not-different:)


Epilogue
Buddhist Sutras teaching Buddha Nature

--- Tathāgatagarbha Sūtra

--- Śrīmālādevī Siṃhanāda Sūtra

--- Anunatva Apurnatva Nirdeśa

--- Aṅgulimālīya Sūtra

--- Mahāyāna Mahāparinirvāṇa Sūtra

--- Laṅkāvatāra Sūtra
I've always understood Buddha nature and tathagatagarbha to refer the same quality. Words to help us fix our gaze.
There is a famous statement by the Surreal painter, Salvador Dali:
“The difference between a madman and myself, is that I am not mad!”

With tathagatagharba, it’s sort of like that.
The only difference between a Buddha and an ordinary, sentient being, is that the ordinary person doesn’t realize they are Buddha.

I ne’s Buddha-nature is already there. Nothing needs to be added or concocted. It is like the gem hidden away in the man’s coat.

The point of practicing dharma
is simply (or not so simply) the realization of it.
It’s that non-realizing that is a vast canyon separating us from what is as close as
the tip of our noses.
May I ask you a question? So, all people in our world are already enlightened, they just need to practice to realize it? What will happen to people who have realized their enlightenment, what will they feel, what will they do next?
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Supramundane
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Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by Supramundane »

I often wonder if all these words do not refer to the same thing : 'suchness', the ultimate reality of all dharmas, emptiness, 'true emptiness', ultimate emptiness, primal state, Buddha-mind, Tathāgata, Buddha-nature, dharmakāya, dharma realm, the highest truth (paramārtha), the great perfection, etc. etc.

Could it be that our body and mental states, objects perceived as external objects, are so many myriad manifestations, like so many shards of glass, of the Buddha-mind, projected through the prism of the alaya consciousness?
Malcolm
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Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by Malcolm »

Supramundane wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:38 pm Tathagatagarbha --- womb or embryo?

It is disputed whether buddha-nature is identical to Tathagatagarbha. Perhaps they both describe the same thing from different angles?

Tathāgatagarbha needs no cultivation... only uncovering, as it is already present and perfect in each being.

(Remember the Sutra about the poor man who in advanced old age found a jewel sewn into his smock. With Incredible surprise, he observed: 'I have been a rich man all this time and I never knew it!')

This points not to a womb (potential) but to an embryo (innate buddha-nature).

Perhaps tathagatagarbha and buddha-nature are different --- but refer to the same thing.
So they are different but not-different:)


Epilogue
Buddhist Sutras teaching Buddha Nature

--- Tathāgatagarbha Sūtra

--- Śrīmālādevī Siṃhanāda Sūtra

--- Anunatva Apurnatva Nirdeśa

--- Aṅgulimālīya Sūtra

--- Mahāyāna Mahāparinirvāṇa Sūtra

--- Laṅkāvatāra Sūtra

Three things: The Lankāvatara should be taken as the definitive sutra on this topic for three reasons: 1) It defines tathāgatagarbha as cittaprakṛtiprabhāsvara aka the natural luminosity of the mind. 2) It defines all sentient beings as tathāgatagarbha and tathāgatagarbha as all sentient beings. 3. It is the sūtra identified by Candrakīrti as the final word on the subject.

As for original enlightenment, all I have to say is to quote from Jetsun Drakpa Gyalsten, "Of what use is primordial buddhahood when at present our adventitious afflictions are not mitigated at all?
Last edited by Malcolm on Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by Malcolm »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:37 pm
The only difference between a Buddha and an ordinary, sentient being, is that the ordinary person doesn’t realize they are Buddha.
No, the difference between a buddha and and sentient beings is the presence or absence of adventitious afflictions, as the Buddha states in the Hevajra tantra:

Sentient beings are buddhas,
though obscured by adventitious afflictions.
When those are removed, they are buddhas.
Last edited by Malcolm on Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Supramundane
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Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by Supramundane »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:21 pm
Supramundane wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:38 pm Tathagatagarbha --- womb or embryo?

It is disputed whether buddha-nature is identical to Tathagatagarbha. Perhaps they both describe the same thing from different angles?

Tathāgatagarbha needs no cultivation... only uncovering, as it is already present and perfect in each being.

(Remember the Sutra about the poor man who in advanced old age found a jewel sewn into his smock. With Incredible surprise, he observed: 'I have been a rich man all this time and I never knew it!')

This points not to a womb (potential) but to an embryo (innate buddha-nature).

Perhaps tathagatagarbha and buddha-nature are different --- but refer to the same thing.
So they are different but not-different:)


Epilogue
Buddhist Sutras teaching Buddha Nature

--- Tathāgatagarbha Sūtra

--- Śrīmālādevī Siṃhanāda Sūtra

--- Anunatva Apurnatva Nirdeśa

--- Aṅgulimālīya Sūtra

--- Mahāyāna Mahāparinirvāṇa Sūtra

--- Laṅkāvatāra Sūtra

Three things: The Lankāvatara should be taken as the definitive sutra on this topic for three reasons: 1) It defines tathagātagarbha as cittaprakṛtiprabhāsvara aka the natural luminosity of the mind. 2) It defines all sentient beings as tathagātagarbha and tathagātagarbha as all sentient beings. 3. It is the sūtra identified by Candrakīrti as the final word on the subject.

As for original enlightenment, all I have to say is to quote from Jetsun Drakpa Gyalsten, "Of what use is primordial buddhahood when at present our adventitious afflictions are not mitigated at all?
:good:
RonBucker
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Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by RonBucker »

Supramundane wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:10 pm I often wonder if all these words do not refer to the same thing : 'suchness', the ultimate reality of all dharmas, emptiness, 'true emptiness', ultimate emptiness, primal state, Buddha-mind, Tathāgata, Buddha-nature, dharmakāya, dharma realm, the highest truth (paramārtha), the great perfection, etc. etc.

Could it be that our body and mental states, objects perceived as external objects, are so many myriad manifestations, like so many shards of glass, of the Buddha-mind, projected through the prism of the alaya consciousness?
Let me ask you what it means: "Could it be that our body and mental states, objects perceived as external objects, are so many myriad manifestations, like so many shards of glass, of the Buddha-mind, projected through the prism of the alaya consciousness ? " What does it mean that we are all living in the mind of a Buddha?
Thank you.
Last edited by RonBucker on Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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LastLegend
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Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by LastLegend »

Alaya is simply a recall of memories. Myriad manifestations is mind precisely a specific function of consciousness.
It’s eye blinking.
Malcolm
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Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by Malcolm »

LastLegend wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:16 pm Alaya is simply a recall of memories.
No, the ālaya has no cognitive operations. It is just a repository of traces. It does not remember anything. Memory is an operation of the sixth consciousness.
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Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by LastLegend »

Sorry I use language in a compact way...yes there is something that brings memory back.
It’s eye blinking.
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LastLegend
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Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by LastLegend »

Or bring/draw seed into memory that we experience...however we want to word it, it’s all operations of mind how it behaves. :lol:
It’s eye blinking.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:26 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:37 pm
The only difference between a Buddha and an ordinary, sentient being, is that the ordinary person doesn’t realize they are Buddha.
No, the difference between a buddha and and sentient beings is the presence or absence of adventitious afflictions, as the Buddha states in the Hevajra tantra:

Sentient beings are buddhas,
though obscured by adventitious afflictions.
When those are removed, they are buddhas.
Well, yeah.
And the reason why ordinary beings don’t realize it is because of the afflictions which aren’t removed.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

RonBucker wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:58 pm So, all people in our world are already enlightened, they just need to practice to realize it? What will happen to people who have realized their enlightenment, what will they feel, what will they do next?
1. Not already enlightened.

Being Enlightened means you realize it. It’s like walking into a dark room and turning on the lights (hence the term, “enlightened”).

The true nature of mind of all beings is originally unobscured, already Buddha.

To use a well-known metaphor (Shantideva):
The original state of water is perfectly clean and clear. But water in which mud or silt has been stirred up is cloudy and undrinkable. When the dirt settles, the water returns to its original state.

2. What will they do next? They will experience everything without confusion, grasping, or hinderance.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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LastLegend
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Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by LastLegend »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:22 pm
RonBucker wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:58 pm So, all people in our world are already enlightened, they just need to practice to realize it? What will happen to people who have realized their enlightenment, what will they feel, what will they do next?
1. Not already enlightened.

Being Enlightened means you realize it. It’s like walking into a dark room and turning on the lights (hence the term, “enlightened”).

The true nature of mind of all beings is originally unobscured, already Buddha.

To use a well-known metaphor (Shantideva):
The original state of water is perfectly clean and clear. But water in which mud or silt has been stirred up is cloudy and undrinkable. When the dirt settles, the water returns to its original state.

2. What will they do next? They will experience everything without confusion, grasping, or hinderance.
So either stop grasping, know how mind grasps, or what to do when bad karmic experience already arisen after grasping? 😄
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

"Our world" is the whole human spectrum, probably well beyond what we can see. Technically we all have the potential to become enlightened, but beings from other realms would replace us anyway, beings are dying and being reborn constantly, on a level and scale that we can barely comprehend. Generally, samsara is seen as endless. If it weren't the vows would mean less.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Malcolm
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Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by Malcolm »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:22 pm
RonBucker wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:58 pm So, all people in our world are already enlightened, they just need to practice to realize it? What will happen to people who have realized their enlightenment, what will they feel, what will they do next?
1. Not already enlightened.

Being Enlightened means you realize it. It’s like walking into a dark room and turning on the lights (hence the term, “enlightened”).
The term "enlightened" does not exist in any Buddhist text in Sanskrit, Pali, or Tibetan. The term "bodhi" means to awaken.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:29 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:22 pm
RonBucker wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:58 pm So, all people in our world are already enlightened, they just need to practice to realize it? What will happen to people who have realized their enlightenment, what will they feel, what will they do next?
1. Not already enlightened.

Being Enlightened means you realize it. It’s like walking into a dark room and turning on the lights (hence the term, “enlightened”).
The term "enlightened" does not exist in any Buddhist text in Sanskrit, Pali, or Tibetan. The term "bodhi" means to awaken.
Yeah, that’s true. It’s an abstract concept borrowed from Western Europe.
Within the context of the question, it refers to realization of original mind itself, and not some notion of “enlightened mind” or buddhahood specifically.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Malcolm
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Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by Malcolm »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:27 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:29 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:22 pm

1. Not already enlightened.

Being Enlightened means you realize it. It’s like walking into a dark room and turning on the lights (hence the term, “enlightened”).
The term "enlightened" does not exist in any Buddhist text in Sanskrit, Pali, or Tibetan. The term "bodhi" means to awaken.
Yeah, that’s true. It’s an abstract concept borrowed from Western Europe.
Within the context of the question, it refers to realization of original mind itself, and not some notion of “enlightened mind” or buddhahood specifically.
The term is not a good one for Buddhists to use.
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Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by Supramundane »

The question for me is: "is tathagatagarbha a womb (potential, i.e. we can become Buddha) or is it an embryo (i.e. we are already Buddhas but do not know it). There is no clear answer in my mind, and this seems to be a fundamental polemic in mahayana studies.

If tahtagatagarbha is buddha-nature with defilements, then dharmakaya is buddha-nature with no defilements. 

Let's go a step further: buddha-nature is at its core the emptiness of all sentient beings. The emptiness of the mind of a buddha is without defilements (dharmakaya). In other words, dharmakaya (suchness without defilements) is different from tathagatagarbha (suchness with defilements). If we accept the above definitions, then logically, there is dharmakaya in tahtagatagarbha! 

Since the emptiness of a chair is not the emptiness of a table, the emptiness of the mind of a sentient being is not the emptiness of the mind of a Buddha... right?

Emptiness is always emptiness of something. Thus, emptiness is not an essence. This calls into question whether we can say that "all beings are Buddha but do not know it". We do not have the same essence. We are all empty, but this is not a unifying essence or 'true self'.

Perhaps the only unifying trait is the mindstream that goes through all three kaya in the trikaya... if this is the case. I suspect it is.

Could the issue be so confusing because the solution is a hybrid one? i.e. we have a permanent deathless element to our beings, which thereby gives us the potential to aspire to buddhahood?? The luminous mind?
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