Are there any precedents that allow for 'developments' of Buddhism after the Buddha?

[Padmist]

Are there any precedents from the Buddha himself from canon (preferably the Pali Canon) that show the Buddha expected his later followers to 'develop' various teachings beyond the ones he explicitly taught as recorded in the canon?

I mean, are there statements or teachings of the Buddha that show he welcomes or expects later developments, discoveries, additions, reformulations, of his teachings?

[narhwal90]

Which sutras have you read?

[Motova]

Are there any precedents from the Buddha himself from canon (preferably the Pali Canon) that show the Buddha expected his later followers to 'develop' various teachings beyond the ones he explicitly taught as recorded in the canon?

I mean, are there statements or teachings of the Buddha that show he welcomes or expects later developments, discoveries, additions, reformulations, of his teachings?

"I’ve taught the Dhamma without making any distinction between secret and public teachings. The Realized One doesn’t have the closed fist of a teacher when it comes to the teachings."

"Let the teaching be your island and your refuge, with no other refuge."

https://suttacentral.net/sn47.9/en/sujato

[Johnny Dangerous]

Are there any precedents from the Buddha himself from canon (preferably the Pali Canon) that show the Buddha expected his later followers to 'develop' various teachings beyond the ones he explicitly taught as recorded in the canon?

I mean, are there statements or teachings of the Buddha that show he welcomes or expects later developments, discoveries, additions, reformulations, of his teachings?

You kind of need to specify what canon you asking about here. Of course there are statements like that in Mahayana Sutras.

There are statements that can be interpreted both ways in the Pali Suttas. For instance, the statement Motova mentions can be interpreted differently by Mahayanaists and sectarian Theravadins, who feel the Mahayana is not legitimate.

The ones I go with are like this:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/stu ... izing.html

I would also argue that if the Buddha intended that his teaching be frozen in time that he would have explicitly said so. Further, you can simply go wtih the Turning The Wheel of Dharma Sutta: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

And say that if someone subscribes to these as a foundation (as arguably most Buddhists do, even if it is the form of the paramitas, etc.), then they are on the same page.

So the Dharma here is about the cultivating of certain qualities, and has certain markers, but is it not limited to a particular fixed historical expression, YMMV.

[avatamsaka3]

"Let the teaching be your island and your refuge, with no other refuge."

And what is your interpretation of this in terms of the question?

The essence of the dhamma doesn't change. How could it? The non-essential stuff you can modify all you want.

[Johnny Dangerous]

By way of a general reminder: This is not a Theravadin site, and by definition here Mahayana interpretations are seen as not only valid, but definitive. It's of course fine to discuss this subject, and I think it can be productive to discuss the linkage between what is said in the Pali Canon and what is said in Mahayana sources, and what is not.

That said, notions that the Mahayana is somehow invalid simply don't belong on the site, and should be taken to Dhammawheel.

[PadmaVonSamba]

Are there any precedents from the Buddha himself from canon (preferably the Pali Canon) that show the Buddha expected his later followers to 'develop' various teachings beyond the ones he explicitly taught as recorded in the canon?

I mean, are there statements or teachings of the Buddha that show he welcomes or expects later developments, discoveries, additions, reformulations, of his teachings?

”Beyond” is an interesting concept to use here, since the Dharma (or Dhamma) teachings are applicable to every manner of changing situation.

Before entering parinirvana, he advised his followers to ‘make lamps of yourselves’ (which does not mean to set yourself on fire!). How can that not in itself define “beyond”?

Once a cake has been baked, any type icing, and flavor, any color, can be applied to accommodate the situation, a birthday, a wedding, whatever. The outer appearance may look different, but the cake itself doesn’t change.

[avatamsaka3]

I don't believe the Mahayana is invalid. I'm wondering how that quote is interpreted.

[Hazel]

By way of a general reminder: This is not a Theravadin site, and by definition here Mahayana interpretations are seen as not only valid, but definitive. It's of course fine to discuss this subject, and I think it can be productive to discuss the linkage between what is said in the Pali Canon and what is said in Mahayana sources, and what is not.

That said, notions that the Mahayana is somehow invalid simply don't belong on the site, and should be taken to Dhammawheel.

Looks like I accidentally wandered onto the Bodhisattva's path. The mm and rm in the domains look so much alike! Well, I guess it's too late now, I took vows.

[Johnny Dangerous]

By way of a general reminder: This is not a Theravadin site, and by definition here Mahayana interpretations are seen as not only valid, but definitive. It's of course fine to discuss this subject, and I think it can be productive to discuss the linkage between what is said in the Pali Canon and what is said in Mahayana sources, and what is not.

That said, notions that the Mahayana is somehow invalid simply don't belong on the site, and should be taken to Dhammawheel.

Looks like I accidentally wandered onto the Bodhisattva's path. The mm and rm in the domains look so much alike! Well, I guess it's too late now, I took vows.

Sucker!

[Kim O'Hara]

...The mm and rm in the domains look so much alike! ...

Don't worry - even DWT thinks everyone over there should be over here: try typing "dhamma" there and it auto-corrects to "dharma".




Kim

[FiveSkandhas]

"Are there any precedents that allow for 'developments' of Buddhism after the Buddha?"

Of course... The doctrine of upaya or "skillful means." The Bodhisattva uses whatever is at hand -- whatever it takes --to trigger awakening.

Each moment calls for its own unique upaya. This, of course, includes all the moments after the historical Buddha's Paranirvana.

As the Mahavairocana Sutra says:
The Bodhi Mind is the cause,
Great Compassion is the root,
Skillful means are the ultimate.

[mikenz66]

Hi Motova,

"Let the teaching be your island and your refuge, with no other refuge."
https://suttacentral.net/sn47.9/en/sujato

Perhaps it's worth quoting a little more of the sutta:

So Ānanda, be your own island, your own refuge, with no other refuge. Let the teaching be your island and your refuge, with no other refuge.

And how does a mendicant do this? It’s when a mendicant meditates by observing an aspect of the body—keen, aware, and mindful, rid of desire and aversion for the world. They meditate observing an aspect of feelings … mind … principles—keen, aware, and mindful, rid of desire and aversion for the world. That’s how a mendicant is their own island, their own refuge, with no other refuge. That’s how the teaching is their island and their refuge, with no other refuge.

It seems to me to be talking about practising the teaching, not so much about memorising texts.


Mike

[Astus]

Are there any precedents from the Buddha himself from canon (preferably the Pali Canon) that show the Buddha expected his later followers to 'develop' various teachings beyond the ones he explicitly taught as recorded in the canon?
I mean, are there statements or teachings of the Buddha that show he welcomes or expects later developments, discoveries, additions, reformulations, of his teachings?

Rather the opposite, expecting disciples to preserve it correctly. See e.g. Āṇisutta SN 20.7, Saṅgītisutta DN 33.

'you should remember what I have not declared as undeclared, and what I have declared as declared.'
(Cūḷamālukyasutta MN 63)

[Aemilius]

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying in Rajagaha, on Vulture Peak Mountain. There he addressed the monks: "Monks, I will teach you the seven conditions that lead to no decline. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"Yes, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said: "And which seven are the conditions that lead to no decline?

[1] "As long as the monks meet often, meet a great deal, their growth can be expected, not their decline.

[2] "As long as the monks meet in harmony, adjourn from their meetings in harmony, and conduct Sangha business in harmony, their growth can be expected, not their decline.

[3] "As long as the monks neither decree what has been undecreed nor repeal what has been decreed, but practice undertaking the training rules as they have been decreed, their growth can be expected, not their decline.

[4] "As long as the monks honor, respect, venerate, and do homage to the elder monks — those with seniority who have long been ordained, the fathers of the Sangha, leaders of the Sangha — regarding them as worth listening to, their growth can be expected, not their decline.

[5] "As long as the monks do not submit to the power of any arisen craving that leads to further becoming, their growth can be expected, not their decline.

[6] "As long as the monks see their own benefit in wilderness dwellings, their growth can be expected, not their decline.

[7] "As long as the monks each keep firmly in mind: 'If there are any well-behaved fellow followers of the chaste life who have yet to come, may they come; and may the well-behaved fellow-followers of the chaste life who have come live in comfort,' their growth can be expected, not their decline.

"As long as the monks remain steadfast in these seven conditions, and as long as these seven conditions endure among the monks, the monks' growth can be expected, not their decline."

-AN 7.21

There are several different prophecies in the Buddhist sutras about the duration and disappearance of the Good Law (Saddharma), Etienne Lamotte writes about this in his History of Inidan Buddhism, chapter Disappearance of the Good Law:

Year 2,000. - According to Bu-ston (11, pp. 103, 178), the year 2,000 would be the date fixed by the Candragarbhasutra for the destruction of the Law. This is also the opinion of Paramartha (500-569 A.D.),

Year 2,500. - A passage in the Mahisamnipatasutra (T 397) maintains that the Good Law disappears after 5 periods of 5 centuries : in the first the bhikshus and others will be strong in deliberation (i.e. will acquire satya-abhisamaya); in the second, they will be strong in meditation (samadhi, dhyana); in the third, in Scriptures (Sruta); in the fourth, in the foundation of monasteries; in the fifth, in quarrels and reproaches, and the white Law will become invisible.

Year 3,000. - Referring to the passage from the Mahasamnipata quoted above, Chi tsang (T 1824, ch. 1, p. 18a 23-6) introduces an interesting variant : "The Ta chi ching distinguishes between six successive predominances (sarata) [in the history of the Good Law] : 1. in the first period of 500 years, a predominance of the acquisition of holiness (adhigama); 2. in the second, erudition (Sruta); 3. in the third, concentration (samadhi); 4. in the fourth, stupas and viharas; 5. in the fifth, quarrels (vivada); 6. in the sixth, foolishness (moha) : which makes 3,000 years in all".

Year 11,500 or 12,000. - From the sixth century onwards, the majority of the Chinese annalists such as Hui ssii (515-577), Chi tsang (549-623), Huai kan (613-681) and Liang p'i (717-777) were of the opinion that the disappearance of the Law occurs in "Three Degrees" (sun chieh) : disappearance of the cheng fa (saddharma), of the hsiang fa (pratirupaka) and finally of the mo fa (pascimadharma).
For Chi tsang (T 1824, ch. 1, p. 186 2-5), Huai kan (T 1960, ch. 3, p. 48c 7-8) and Liang p'i (T 1709, ch. 7, p. 520c lo), who refer, among other documents, to an inscription engraved on a Jetavanavihira in a foreign land, the Saddharma lasts for 1,000 years, the Pratirupaka for 1,000, and the Pascima for 10,000 : 12,000 years in all.

[Padmist]

so what would be the lesson from this prophesies?

[Queequeg]

so what would be the lesson from this prophesies?

If we stick to the specific dates, we should have nothing - just a dark age until Maitreya appears. But clearly, we at least have the traces if not vital authentic teachings.

I read these time periods of 500, 1000, 10,000 years as "in a long time." They should be read as warnings to us to do our best to preserve and pass on the teachings.

[Queequeg]

Are there any precedents from the Buddha himself from canon (preferably the Pali Canon) that show the Buddha expected his later followers to 'develop' various teachings beyond the ones he explicitly taught as recorded in the canon?
I mean, are there statements or teachings of the Buddha that show he welcomes or expects later developments, discoveries, additions, reformulations, of his teachings?

Rather the opposite, expecting disciples to preserve it correctly. See e.g. Āṇisutta SN 20.7, Saṅgītisutta DN 33.

'you should remember what I have not declared as undeclared, and what I have declared as declared.'
(Cūḷamālukyasutta MN 63)

That's well and good, but if you take that too strictly, commentary is technically barred, and all you can have is the Pali texts. Not even sure you could have Abhidhamma. You might find yourself going down the originalist rabbit hole. The question is, what is elaboration and explanation and what is just fabricated. How much latitude is permitted in commentary?

[Motova]

Hi Motova,

"Let the teaching be your island and your refuge, with no other refuge."
https://suttacentral.net/sn47.9/en/sujato

Perhaps it's worth quoting a little more of the sutta:

So Ānanda, be your own island, your own refuge, with no other refuge. Let the teaching be your island and your refuge, with no other refuge.

And how does a mendicant do this? It’s when a mendicant meditates by observing an aspect of the body—keen, aware, and mindful, rid of desire and aversion for the world. They meditate observing an aspect of feelings … mind … principles—keen, aware, and mindful, rid of desire and aversion for the world. That’s how a mendicant is their own island, their own refuge, with no other refuge. That’s how the teaching is their island and their refuge, with no other refuge.

It seems to me to be talking about practising the teaching, not so much about memorising texts.


Mike

Maybe I should have posted this quote instead:

"If there’s anyone who thinks: ‘I’ll take charge of the Saṅgha of mendicants,’ or ‘the Saṅgha of mendicants is meant for me,’ let them make a statement regarding the Saṅgha. But the Realized One doesn’t think like this, so why should he make some statement regarding the Saṅgha?"

My interpretation of the sutta is that the Buddha says he did not leave anything out and no one has the authority or ability to add more.

[Astus]

That's well and good, but if you take that too strictly, commentary is technically barred, and all you can have is the Pali texts. Not even sure you could have Abhidhamma. You might find yourself going down the originalist rabbit hole. The question is, what is elaboration and explanation and what is just fabricated. How much latitude is permitted in commentary?

It depends on the type of commentary, how far it diverges from what are found in the discourses. Presumably a commentator's intent is not to add something to the Buddha's teaching but rather to make it clearer to the readers. And that's what all Buddhist teachings are supposed to be, just relaying what the Buddha himself taught. It is another thing that during the process it can change in may ways, like in the Āṇisutta eventually nothing remains of the drum. Look at this passage from Dogen:

'In the lesser vehicle, people used counting to regulate their breath. However, the buddha ancestors’ engaging of the way always differed from the lesser vehicle.
A buddha ancestor said, “Even if you arouse the mind of a leprous wild fox, never practice the self-regulation of the two vehicles.” The two vehicles refer to such as the school of the four-part vinaya, and the [Abhidharma] Kosa school, which have spread in the world these days. In the Mahayana there is also a method for regulating breath, which is knowing that one breath is long, another breath is short. The breath reaches the tanden and comes up from the tanden. Although exhale and inhale differ, both of them occur depending on the tanden. Impermanence is easy to clarify, and regulating the mind is easy to accomplish.'
(Eihei Koroku 5.390, p 348-349)

The interesting thing is of course that the method of counting (following, fixing, etc.) is not a method taught in the discourses, but what is taught as the 16 steps breath mindfulness in teachings like the Anapanasati Sutta is what Dogen suggests. It's also possible to find other cases where while Mahayana rejects teachings found in Abhidharma and commentarial works what is proposed instead is more in line with the early scriptures.