Sense consciousness

[cyril]

There is documented evidence of congenitally blind people who were able to see during a NDE. Also, the bardo-beings and various types of spirits are said to possess an acute sense of smell, despite possessing no olfactory organs. So, I guess my question is, how can the sense-consciousness operate in the absence of the corresponding sense organ? What is the mechanism involved?

[PadmaVonSamba]

If you cover your eyes so that you can’t see,
How do you know you can’t see?
There is still the visual awareness
that can “see” that you can’t see.
My understanding is that this is original mind
out from which everything emerges.

[LastLegend]

If you cover your eyes so that you can’t see,
How do you know you can’t see?
There is still the visual awareness
that can “see” that you can’t see.
My understanding is that this is original mind
out from which everything emerges.

It’s not lol . Whatever ‘moves/shifts’ whether it is very subtle that’s almost not detectable is not unborn.

[cyril]

If you cover your eyes so that you can’t see,
How do you know you can’t see?
There is still the visual awareness
that can “see” that you can’t see.
My understanding is that this is original mind
out from which everything emerges.

Well, i think perception and the awareness of perception are different categories which shouldn't be conflated. My question pertains to the former. If consciousness can perceive the material reality without the interface of the sensory organs, how does that occur?

For example, in the Bardo teachings it is said that, due to habitual tendencies, the consciousness appropriates a mental body which further shapes its perceptions. If that is the case, then how can such mental body fully mimic the function of sensory organs, neuronal path and brain activity so that the end result is a perception similar to that of a being possessing all these? For instance, the perception of smell involves olfactory organs, receptors and all that; gandharvas have none of these but still can perceive and even be nourished by various smells.
Second, what if there are no habitual tendencies associated to a particular sense-consciousness to begin with? Congenitaly blind people do not even dream in images, like we do so I can't see what habitual tendency can be brought into question; and yet, during the NDE they reported seeing the surroundings just like any human possessing sight would do.

[LastLegend]

I am sorry people I was confusing this whole time. I equate perceptions with thoughts.

[LastLegend]

If you cover your eyes so that you can’t see,
How do you know you can’t see?
There is still the visual awareness
that can “see” that you can’t see.
My understanding is that this is original mind
out from which everything emerges.

Well, i think perception and the awareness of perception are different categories which shouldn't be conflated. My question pertains to the former. If consciousness can perceive the material reality without the interface of the sensory organs, how does that occur?

For example, in the Bardo teachings it is said that, due to habitual tendencies, the consciousness appropriates a mental body which further shapes its perceptions. If that is the case, then how can such mental body fully mimic the function of sensory organs, neuronal path and brain activity so that the end result is a perception similar to that of a being possessing all these? For instance, the perception of smell involves olfactory organs, receptors and all that; gandharvas have none of these but still can perceive and even be nourished by various smells.
Second, what if there are no habitual tendencies associated to a particular sense-consciousness to begin with? Congenitaly blind people do not even dream in images, like we do so I can't see what habitual tendency can be brought into question; and yet, during the NDE they reported seeing the surroundings just like any human possessing sight would do.

I don’t think your question can be fully answered unless we are truly awakened. This might be irrelevant to your question. From what you say there, perception appears to be a whole process of consciousness, intent, thoughts, and feelings all happening at once. Though in original consciousness, if intent isn’t active then it does draw karma.

This is like meditative mode.

[cyril]

I am sorry people I was confusing this whole time. I equate perceptions with thoughts.

You can perceive and react to stimuli without being consciously aware of your perception of the said stimuli. That is subliminal perception. You can be also aware of you perception without being aware of its nature. Like during the ordinary dream state when you perceive and react to stimuli without being aware of their illusory nature.

[LastLegend]

I am sorry people I was confusing this whole time. I equate perceptions with thoughts.

You can perceive and react to stimuli without being consciously aware of your perception of the said stimuli. That is subliminal perception. You can be also aware of you perception without being aware of its nature. Like during the ordinary dream state when you perceive and react to stimuli without being aware of their illusory nature.

I think, that’s right and that’s because we still possess ignorance. There is instantaneous act that isn’t filtering through consciousness, such as blinking. I think there is a thin line here between consciousness and nature or empty nature. Like scratching an itch our hand instantaneous raises to scratch.

[Soma999]

There are different « cartography » of subtle body.

Maybe the buddhist view is not the easiest to answer your question.

That is why there are many cartography. To have the ability to answer all kind of questions. It is the same reality, with different views.

The view with the astral body and mental body inside the physical body explains it quiet easily.

The astral body, leave the body, and perceive. The astral body is not blind.

It is highly documented in NDE.

Some people leave their body and can report what happens even on other country.

They can even operates certain things on the astral plane, or if you want on the world of light and sound, energy (the plane of the sambogakaya). Healings have been done this way.

Sorry for this not fully buddhist answer.

[PadmaVonSamba]

If you cover your eyes so that you can’t see,
How do you know you can’t see?
There is still the visual awareness
that can “see” that you can’t see.
My understanding is that this is original mind
out from which everything emerges.

Well, i think perception and the awareness of perception are different categories which shouldn't be conflated. My question pertains to the former. If consciousness can perceive the material reality without the interface of the sensory organs, how does that occur?

For example, in the Bardo teachings it is said that, due to habitual tendencies, the consciousness appropriates a mental body which further shapes its perceptions. If that is the case, then how can such mental body fully mimic the function of sensory organs, neuronal path and brain activity so that the end result is a perception similar to that of a being possessing all these? For instance, the perception of smell involves olfactory organs, receptors and all that; gandharvas have none of these but still can perceive and even be nourished by various smells.
Second, what if there are no habitual tendencies associated to a particular sense-consciousness to begin with? Congenitaly blind people do not even dream in images, like we do so I can't see what habitual tendency can be brought into question; and yet, during the NDE they reported seeing the surroundings just like any human possessing sight would do.

Well, that’s a good question.
First, I think one needs to look at such reported incidents more closely. What does it mean for a blind person to “see” during an NDE? What I mean is, if they have no experience with ‘seeing’ (visual perception as seeing people regard it) then how do they describe that experience? I ask this because I recall that in situations where sight has been given to people who had never had it, the initial experience was overwhelming, almost shocking.
At the same time, a blind person can establish a very accurate map in the mind of precisely where objects are in a familiar environment, such as their own home. Is that also “seeing” with the mind?

Second, according to some Buddhist teachings, as I have understood it, the true nature of mind is that it is already fully aware of everything. This is what a Buddha experiences, because a Buddha’s mind is completely unobstructed.

So, if you like, you can start with that as a premise: the mind is already aware of everything, itself being without limitations.

Immediately after that, however, there arise immediate obscurations or limitations, these being the result of the karma which positions us in one type of existence or another. If you are born as a human, the mind’s entire access is limited to human sensory functions.

As humans, our limitations take the form of our five senses. Yes, they provide contact with the “outside world” but they are like tiny windows in a space ship.

Consider, for example, that a dog’s nose provides its mind a much greater access to the environment, including the recent past, than does any human sense organ. A dog can smell where a squirrel was days before. Likewise, honey bees can see many more colors on flowers, colors in the ultraviolet spectrum, than humans can see. It can be argued that the very sense organs that we think allow the mind’s access to the world are in fact the things which also limit its access.

So, one can ask, although we rely on our physical sense organs now to provide us with at least some limited information about what is around us, does that reliance only occur conditionally? Just as a microscope provides the conditions for seeing microscopic things, or could very well be that when the mind is unobscured, it can perceive anything.

This, I think, is the position of Buddhist theory. Our senses are like the five tiny windows in a house. When the house is gone (when a person dies) the windows themselves aren’t even there any more. Then there is nothing which limits perception.

[LastLegend]

Second, according to some Buddhist teachings, as I have understood it, the true nature of mind is that it is already fully aware of everything. This is what a Buddha experiences, because a Buddha’s mind is completely unobstructed.

It seems correct...my teacher said consciousness is operational in daily life and not separate from aware nature when we enter great Samadhi once as enlightenment.

[LastLegend]

What Samadhi looks like is itself not expressible because that which expresses is gone. I think each of use have to experience this for ourselves there is no other way around this. This can go wrong without guidance, especially when that aware-nature isn’t present in whatever practice that we do. That aware-nature has to be present.

[LastLegend]

It’s not even subtle but we describe it as such.

[cyril]

First, I think one needs to look at such reported incidents more closely. What does it mean for a blind person to “see” during an NDE? What I mean is, if they have no experience with ‘seeing’ (visual perception as seeing people regard it) then how do they describe that experience? I ask this because I recall that in situations where sight has been given to people who had never had it, the initial experience was overwhelming, almost shocking.
At the same time, a blind person can establish a very accurate map in the mind of precisely where objects are in a familiar environment, such as their own home. Is that also “seeing” with the mind?

Yes, in fact they do get stunned, almost overwhelmed of such experience. If you have time, you can check the link below, it describes such documented cases.

https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67 ... o2-101.pdf

This, I think, is the position of Buddhist theory. Our senses are like the five tiny windows in a house. When the house is gone (when a person dies) the windows themselves aren’t even there any more. Then there is nothing which limits perception.

That is precisely one of the points I was trying to make. If nothing limits your perception anymore, your vision should no longer be limited to the confines of the human vision. And yet, none of those accounts report perceiving things which would otherwise be outside of the range of human perception. Granted, the perception during the NDE is greatly enhanced; they get full 360 vision, they simultaneously see things located in opposite directions, they can zoom in to great detail and so on but none of the things perceived is found outside of the spectrum of ordinary human perception. The colours are always those within the human visible spectrum; no NDE-er seems to detect ultraviolet range for example. The size of the things they can see is never below what a human eye could normally perceive; for instance, no NDE-er reports seeing protozoa floating in a jar of water. Hence my initial question about sense consciousness and habitual tendencies.

[LastLegend]

Why is it called sense consciousness? Not just consciousness?

[cyril]

Why is it called sense consciousness? Not just consciousness?

Because it arises as a result of the material, physical senses.

[PadmaVonSamba]

Why is it called sense consciousness? Not just consciousness?

Because it arises as a result of the material, physical senses.

For example, in dreams your vision or ‘seeing consciousness’ and ‘hearing consciousness’ may be functioning (because you see and hear things in a dream) even though your body’s physical eyes are closed and the part of your brain that processes the vibrations on your physical ear drums may be ‘turned off’ while you are asleep.

[LastLegend]

Why is it called sense consciousness? Not just consciousness?

Because it arises as a result of the material, physical senses.

Sorry I don’t think we can fully understand all of this. What are physical senses? Sorry to be obvious. I am trying to picture the connection between these.

[LastLegend]

I have been told that consciousness arises from empty nature...anything more than that is going into the rabbit hole of material versus mind. Which I think is just another trick of skandhas.

[Johnny Dangerous]

Why is it called sense consciousness? Not just consciousness?

Because it arises as a result of the material, physical senses.

Sorry I don’t think we can fully understand all of this. What are physical senses? Sorry to be obvious. I am trying to picture the connection between these.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight_Consciousnesses

Kind of a common theme in Buddhism...