Sense consciousness

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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Sense consciousness

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

The mistake is in thinking that there is a ‘self’ first, which somehow possesses the aggregates, rather than there being merely an illusion of a ‘self’ occurring as a result of the aggregates.

The mistake is like looking at a rainbow and thinking that the colors in the sky first exist, like some sort of pigments, and that somehow they’ve attached themselves to, or have somehow tinted the droplets of water in the air, rather than seeing that the rainbow is a direct result of the ‘aggregates’ of water droplets, sunlight and the angle of the sunlight.

It’s like the smiley thing you can type out with
:and ) which together look like two eyes and a mouth. Its like seeing that as : ) and thinking it’s a face. That’s how we see ourselves and other beings and things in the world, except we perceive them as ‘self’ meaning intrinsically existent, and not as the illusion produced by the coming together of aggregates.

Then, Buddha comes along and says ‘there isn’t a self. It’s not even really a face. It’s just the aggregates of : and ) but then people think, “well, I saw a face there, so that face must be the owner of those aggregates.”

Instead of keyboard symbols, we do this with form, perception, and all the skhandas.

It’s simply a matter of having approached the situation backwards. That’s the misunderstanding.
EMPTIFUL.
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Budai
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Re: Sense consciousness

Post by Budai »

Supramundane wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:10 am
This is akin to your links explanation of Nibbana where it is stated: ”The Tibetan term for “nirvana” has a different connotation. It means, literally, a “state beyond sorrow,” referring to a state of release from suffering.”
Really? I don't think it is ever been referred to as a state. Are you sure? Can you give reference to a specific sutra?
It’s written in the link Johnny posted.

This one.

https://studybuddhism.com/en/advanced-s ... st-systems

I think my first indoctrination into Buddhism when I was young was something like, “Desire is the cause of all suffering.” And once there was no more desire I had the idea that one would achieve Enlightenment. This is something like the end of material desires to achieve Nirvana. I know it’s a lot more complicated than that but it’s a nice Expedient Means for me.
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LastLegend
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Re: Sense consciousness

Post by LastLegend »

I am certain that perception is the wrong translation. It should be just thoughts.



Perception

the ability to see, hear, or become aware of something through the senses.
"the normal limits to human perception"
the state of being or process of becoming aware of something through the senses.
"the perception of pain"


Source: Google search perception

Intend
have (a course of action) as one's purpose or objective; plan.
"the company intends to cut about 4,500 jobs"


Google search: intend
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LastLegend
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Re: Sense consciousness

Post by LastLegend »

Source: Google search consciousness

the state of being awake and aware of one's surroundings.
"she failed to regain consciousness and died two days later"

the awareness or perception of something by a person.
plural noun: consciousnesses
"her acute consciousness of Mike's presence"

the fact of awareness by the mind of itself and the world.
"consciousness emerges from the operations of the brain"



There is little difference between perception and consciousness.
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LastLegend
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Re: Sense consciousness

Post by LastLegend »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:18 pm The mistake is in thinking that there is a ‘self’ first, which somehow possesses the aggregates, rather than there being merely an illusion of a ‘self’ occurring as a result of the aggregates.

The mistake is like looking at a rainbow and thinking that the colors in the sky first exist, like some sort of pigments, and that somehow they’ve attached themselves to, or have somehow tinted the droplets of water in the air, rather than seeing that the rainbow is a direct result of the ‘aggregates’ of water droplets, sunlight and the angle of the sunlight.

It’s like the smiley thing you can type out with
:and ) which together look like two eyes and a mouth. Its like seeing that as : ) and thinking it’s a face. That’s how we see ourselves and other beings and things in the world, except we perceive them as ‘self’ meaning intrinsically existent, and not as the illusion produced by the coming together of aggregates.

Then, Buddha comes along and says ‘there isn’t a self. It’s not even really a face. It’s just the aggregates of : and ) but then people think, “well, I saw a face there, so that face must be the owner of those aggregates.”

Instead of keyboard symbols, we do this with form, perception, and all the skhandas.

It’s simply a matter of having approached the situation backwards. That’s the misunderstanding.
Self is still present and causing problems.it doesn’t simply vanish.
It’s eye blinking.
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LastLegend
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Re: Sense consciousness

Post by LastLegend »

Recalling mental imprints are memories? It has happened many times before, it’s instantly appearing.
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SilenceMonkey
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Re: Sense consciousness

Post by SilenceMonkey »

LastLegend wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:46 am
SilenceMonkey wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:59 am Your understanding of the 3rd, 4th and 5th aggregates is inaccurate.

The word perception may be confusing. When we're talking about the aggregates, it's the part of our minds that makes distinctions. "This and that" "good and bad" "me and you" etc... When we're talking about perception through the senses, that's something different.

What you call "intent," or as is often termed "volition," comprises all 51 mental factors. (not only desire) It's also called "mental formations" because these things that arise in the mind are formed by the mind. This is the part of our mind that creates karma. These mental factors are karma.

Consciousness is not exactly the one that makes distinctions, especially if you're talking about nonconceptual consciousness (ie. the 5 sense consciousnesses and the alaya). Consciousness refers to the 8 consciousnesses. But insofar as the 2nd, 3rd and 4th aggregates are part of consciousness, you could say distinctions happen in consciousness.
If you can tell me from your contemplative experience and not just from reading, we can continue because I’d like to ask questions. I don’t want answer like: ask your teacher.
Yeah... I think you might have the process backwards. Instead of going from english words of the translation, to look into the original teaching and understand from there. We can go back to the original sutras to see how Buddha taught these things.

We can see how he described the mind and then find it in our own experience... Instead of coming straight from our own experience and making the classifications and descriptions ourselves. Because then we'd be talking about something else, not exactly how Buddha taught the aggregates.

Google searching the definitions of words in english won't always fit Buddha's teachings. Sometimes it comes close... but only because of similarities in language. I mean, the words you're looking up are themselves not the original word, but an english approximation of the idea that Buddha was trying to get across.
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LastLegend
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Re: Sense consciousness

Post by LastLegend »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:04 pm
LastLegend wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:46 am
SilenceMonkey wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:59 am Your understanding of the 3rd, 4th and 5th aggregates is inaccurate.

The word perception may be confusing. When we're talking about the aggregates, it's the part of our minds that makes distinctions. "This and that" "good and bad" "me and you" etc... When we're talking about perception through the senses, that's something different.

What you call "intent," or as is often termed "volition," comprises all 51 mental factors. (not only desire) It's also called "mental formations" because these things that arise in the mind are formed by the mind. This is the part of our mind that creates karma. These mental factors are karma.

Consciousness is not exactly the one that makes distinctions, especially if you're talking about nonconceptual consciousness (ie. the 5 sense consciousnesses and the alaya). Consciousness refers to the 8 consciousnesses. But insofar as the 2nd, 3rd and 4th aggregates are part of consciousness, you could say distinctions happen in consciousness.
If you can tell me from your contemplative experience and not just from reading, we can continue because I’d like to ask questions. I don’t want answer like: ask your teacher.
Yeah... I think you might have the process backwards. Instead of going from english words of the translation, to look into the original teaching and understand from there. We can go back to the original sutras to see how Buddha taught these things.

We can see how he described the mind and then find it in our own experience... Instead of coming straight from our own experience and making the classifications and descriptions ourselves. Because then we'd be talking about something else, not exactly how Buddha taught the aggregates.

Google searching the definitions of words in english won't always fit Buddha's teachings. Sometimes it comes close... but only because of similarities in language. I mean, the words you're looking up are themselves not the original word, but an english approximation of the idea that Buddha was trying to get across.
Sorry that we can’t agree. 1) Translation issue 2) lack of knowledge from contemplation. From now on, when I speak of aggregates I will refer to my definition.
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SilenceMonkey
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Re: Sense consciousness

Post by SilenceMonkey »

LastLegend wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:19 pm
Sorry that we can’t agree. From now on, when I speak of aggregates I will refer to my definition.
Suit yourself. :shrug:

But you might want to be aware of the differences so you don't have confusion when talking with other buddhists. And also so you don't confuse others.
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LastLegend
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Re: Sense consciousness

Post by LastLegend »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:22 pm
LastLegend wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:19 pm
Sorry that we can’t agree. From now on, when I speak of aggregates I will refer to my definition.
Suit yourself. :shrug:

But you might want to be aware of the differences so you don't have confusion when talking with other buddhists. And also so you don't confuse others.
You are certain of what you read in Sutra and google search is the teaching of Buddha, but from personal contemplation? You don’t consider that there is an error in the way the Western world uses language. For example, in Vietnamese the aggregate that labeled perception is called “Tưởng” which literally means thoughts in common Vietnamese language, yet when they explain it they are confusing it with consciousness. Making the same mistake.
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Re: Sense consciousness

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

LastLegend wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:19 pm
SilenceMonkey wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:04 pm
LastLegend wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:46 am

If you can tell me from your contemplative experience and not just from reading, we can continue because I’d like to ask questions. I don’t want answer like: ask your teacher.
Yeah... I think you might have the process backwards. Instead of going from english words of the translation, to look into the original teaching and understand from there. We can go back to the original sutras to see how Buddha taught these things.

We can see how he described the mind and then find it in our own experience... Instead of coming straight from our own experience and making the classifications and descriptions ourselves. Because then we'd be talking about something else, not exactly how Buddha taught the aggregates.

Google searching the definitions of words in english won't always fit Buddha's teachings. Sometimes it comes close... but only because of similarities in language. I mean, the words you're looking up are themselves not the original word, but an english approximation of the idea that Buddha was trying to get across.
Sorry that we can’t agree. From now on, when I speak of aggregates I will refer to my definition.
Better to go with the original model of the skandhas, which can be found in Pali Suttas, or for that matter, later models found elsewhere in the Mahayana.

It's not necessary to be an academic, but if you can't at least get on board with common use of language around this stuff, you are just working off of personal definitions that mean little to anyone else.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/stu ... aggregates

etc...

Answers from contemplative experience are certainly the best, but even those develop a common language to use. In fact, with meditation manuals and teachings it is even more important to have precise language due to the subtlety of this stuff.
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LastLegend
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Re: Sense consciousness

Post by LastLegend »

My teacher said it’s wrong understanding from wiki I am going with that. If the mass wants to go with that, I am okay.
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SilenceMonkey
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Re: Sense consciousness

Post by SilenceMonkey »

LastLegend wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:29 pm
SilenceMonkey wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:22 pm
LastLegend wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:19 pm
Sorry that we can’t agree. From now on, when I speak of aggregates I will refer to my definition.
Suit yourself. :shrug:

But you might want to be aware of the differences so you don't have confusion when talking with other buddhists. And also so you don't confuse others.
You are certain of what you read in Sutra and google search is the teaching of Buddha, but from personal contemplation? You don’t consider that there is an error in the way the Western world uses language. For example, in Vietnamese the aggregate that labeled perception is called “Tưởng” which literally means thoughts in common Vietnamese language, yet when they explain it they are confusing it with consciousness. Making the same mistake.
Mate. This is actually what I'm saying to you. You were just google searching the english words and basing your understanding on that. Did you bother to read the sutras that teach on the aggregates?
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LastLegend
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Re: Sense consciousness

Post by LastLegend »

I think you have a hard time here... :lol: to admit that you know nothing about aggregates. Other than reading about them even if it’s from Sutras and wiki.
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Giovanni
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Re: Sense consciousness

Post by Giovanni »

Lost Legend it is clear that you do not understand. This is sad.You are wandering and the night is dark.
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LastLegend
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Re: Sense consciousness

Post by LastLegend »

Listen up!

You can call and label whatever the f you want to call them. There is no denying that there is something in you that tells a table from a chair. There is no denying that you have a specific intent to do something. There is no denying that you have a mental image of certain thing, person, or a particular subject you try to understand or discuss.
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SilenceMonkey
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Re: Sense consciousness

Post by SilenceMonkey »

LastLegend wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:51 pm Listen up!

You can call and label whatever the f you want to call them. There is no denying that there is something in you that tells a table from a chair. There is no denying that you have a specific intent to do something. There is no denying that you have a mental image of certain thing, person, or a particular subject you try to understand or discuss.
I mean no offense...

I actually haven’t denied any of these things.
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Re: Sense consciousness

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

LastLegend wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:36 pm My teacher said it’s wrong understanding from wiki I am going with that. If the mass wants to go with that, I am okay.
The wiki pages are sometimes a little off, but like I said, common definitions are needed. One can also look at actual sources.
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Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Sense consciousness

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

LastLegend wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:42 pm I think you have a hard time here... :lol: to admit that you know nothing about aggregates. Other than reading about them even if it’s from Sutras and wiki.
So you’re mocking people for education in basic Buddhist concepts now?

Not ok, you can stop now.

In fact, since you’ve basically admitted you don’t even want a good faith conversation, I see no reason to let this continue.

As always, if someone disagrees you are free to pm me.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
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